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  #1  
Old 05-09-2019, 6:16 AM
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Default Equipment changes from F-class to Precsion Rifle

I'm looking to widen my opportunities by making changes to my F-T/R (308) rifle to go in the PRS "Tactical" Division. I changed from an ADL stock to a used McMillan A3 stock with Badger DBM. Switching optics from a fixed 16X is next. Looks like some necessary scope features are:

FFP variable
Reticle with fine graduations .2/.5 mil
"High-speed" turrets, approximately 10 mils per rotation.

Magazines-I have a 5 round and plan on at least another, but are 10 rounds necessary? Stay with steel AI or go with Magpul?

Looking for some input as I consider these changes. The other "accessories" I will acquire/upgrade as time goes by and gain experience.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 05-09-2019 at 6:37 AM..
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Old 05-09-2019, 8:20 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
I'm looking to widen my opportunities by making changes to my F-T/R (308) rifle to go in the PRS "Tactical" Division. I changed from an ADL stock to a used McMillan A3 stock with Badger DBM. Switching optics from a fixed 16X is next. Looks like some necessary scope features are:

FFP variable
Reticle with fine graduations .2/.5 mil
"High-speed" turrets, approximately 10 mils per rotation.

Magazines-I have a 5 round and plan on at least another, but are 10 rounds necessary? Stay with steel AI or go with Magpul?

Looking for some input as I consider these changes. The other "accessories" I will acquire/upgrade as time goes by and gain experience.
I'd pop over to Sniper's Hide. You'll find several of the guys that shot the match there and maybe a bit more response.

Just my 2cents:

Mags:
When you what a positional match the 10-12 shoots in 120 seconds looks like the shooters are taking forever.. Some stages might be 90 seconds a few a bit longer... But as the shooter, it feels like 1/2 that time.

Get at least 10 rounder and a SAP 2 round ammo caddy. These are great for a 12 round stage, but most often save the day if you end up ejecting a live round.

The steel AI stuff feeds the best and with a misfeed the stage is usually over. I see the most failures in mags from the plastic mags, especially when the gun is resting on them or pushed against them with the support bag.

Scope:
I think you are on the correct track. You'll get all kinds of opinions- The most common is 5-25x, but people have done fine with 3-15/18x..


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Old 05-09-2019, 9:12 AM
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As dumb as this sounds, I hate the factory 5-round AICS mags I have because the lips are rough and scratch my brass something fierce.

I have several 10-round AI branded AICS mags that are special contract runs and coated in some sort of FDE coating that are really good, though.

But the Magpul mags are fine. You can always file them down if you have drop free issues and what not.
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Old 05-09-2019, 9:15 AM
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I've seen all variety of opinions on mags, some like steel AI, others hate them and like steel Accurate, some hate all the steel and like Magpul. It seems like the specs or whatever wrt dimensions of bottom metal, mags, stocks, and receivers are not so solid and there's a lot of variance depending on the combination of components.

If you have one of those cool F-class bipods that look like the Brooklyn Bridge, you might want to get an ordinary one.
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Old 05-09-2019, 9:53 AM
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My AICS mags are great with my AT stock, drop free and fine with brass. My Magpuls are a bit sluggish when chambering rounds and sometimes drop free, sometimes not.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:14 PM
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Default Equipment changes from F-class to Precsion Rifle

FWIW

I might not have been clear about the issue with magpul

It isnít a 3 gun must drop out ultra fast issue, but with certain props created by the MDs the mags become pushed on or are part of the support.

In numerous matches I have seen these conditions cause others using the plastic mags feed issues.. they get really frustrated.


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Old 05-09-2019, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
...certain props created by the MDs the mags become pushed on or are part of the support.

In numerous matches I have seen these conditions cause others using the plastic mags feed issues..
As I recall at the SMGC clinic not too long ago there was someone using Magpuls that had unexplained issues when the mag contacted the barricade. Makes sense the feed lips might get pushed up and snag the bolt. Sounds like I'll pick up a 10 round AI mag. I'm not worried if the lips are a little rough like ocabj mentioned, I can polish them as I do for my M14 in prone slow-fire.

I have been perusing Sniper's Hide for more info. Talking to a few guys at the match concerning scopes, the 5-25 seems pretty popular followed by 3-15X.

For bipod in F-T/R, I currently use a Harris 6-9" swivel. The "Brooklyn Bridge" style is more Open-Class.

I found out that San Diego Precision Rifle club has intro clinics on the first Saturday of the month at Pala Range. I'll be hitting up one of those soon. My primary focus will be slow/smooth transitions and engaging targets accurately. I can develop speed as it goes.
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Old 05-10-2019, 6:12 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
As I recall at the SMGC clinic not too long ago there was someone using Magpuls that had unexplained issues when the mag contacted the barricade. Makes sense the feed lips might get pushed up and snag the bolt. Sounds like I'll pick up a 10 round AI mag. I'm not worried if the lips are a little rough like ocabj mentioned, I can polish them as I do for my M14 in prone slow-fire.

I have been perusing Sniper's Hide for more info. Talking to a few guys at the match concerning scopes, the 5-25 seems pretty popular followed by 3-15X.

For bipod in F-T/R, I currently use a Harris 6-9" swivel. The "Brooklyn Bridge" style is more Open-Class.

I found out that San Diego Precision Rifle club has intro clinics on the first Saturday of the month at Pala Range. I'll be hitting up one of those soon. My primary focus will be slow/smooth transitions and engaging targets accurately. I can develop speed as it goes.
Smoothy

If I was going to build a PRS rifle I'd get a hand full of accumags AI pattern, these are steel and less expensive then AI marked mags. Polishing the feed lips is a must. Not to mention rounding the corners will prevent getting cut while loading mags. and If i can get cut with the callouses I have you know they can cut everyone else.

As far as a scope goes 5-25 FFP is the correct choice for a good all around scope. I shoot a Leupold Mark 5 TMR it's 10 mill per rev with zero stops. It's also $2K or more depending where you look. Night force and Vortex make good stuff that is in the same ball park. Anything you look at in a 4-5-25x FFP scope is going to retail at $2k and up.
Personally I'd stick with the Harris and just change the feet to something with a bit more grip. All that said you got as much experience at this as I do.

And the Feet for the Harris. I could make a set of feet for you. No charge buddy. Next match you need to shoot my rifle & take a look at the scope. See if it suits you.
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:19 AM
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Thanks KC for the tips. It appears we're both looking to get double use out of our rifles, being able to play at F-class and Precision Rifle. I'll see you at the next LR/PPR in June.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 05-10-2019 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
As I recall at the SMGC clinic not too long ago there was someone using Magpuls that had unexplained issues when the mag contacted the barricade. Makes sense the feed lips might get pushed up and snag the bolt. Sounds like I'll pick up a 10 round AI mag. I'm not worried if the lips are a little rough like ocabj mentioned, I can polish them as I do for my M14 in prone slow-fire.
And using a traditional stock, you're more vulnerable to pressure on the mag from outside forces. One nice thing about chassis, they usually have a magwell. Although I've heard of issues with all different types if you rest the rifle's weight on the mag, so it tends to get pushed up. Apparently the bolt action industry hasn't caught up to the AR-15 industry when it comes to latching mags in magwells.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:15 AM
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Here's one thing I've found with bottom metal.

People seem to think it's drop in and go. well maybe maybe not. That needs to be proven.
All the feeding issues I've fixed on customer rifles was due to incorrect spacing of the new bottom metal on the stock. Some required resetting of the pillar height. Some required new pillars all together. It all depends
Chassis do make it easy but good bottom metal properly fit work fine and will continue to work fine for many years.

As for feeding issues from pressure. I've only seen that when someone has the Stealth style bottom metal, No exposed mag well. come up on a barricade and the front on the mag get pushed back and down. this causes the rounds to nose dive and miss the feed ramp.
As far as setting the rifle on the mag and supporting that way. Well that's just bad practice and probably as accurate as just resting the gun on its barrel. See most after market actions were cut for a factory internal box and don't have much in the way of a real positive stop surface for the mag to get a god seat on. So the mag can get pushed up further in the action than it should be. The AR platform gets around this two ways. 1. the mag has and over insertion stop. and 2. the upper receiver has a properly machined pocket that mag fits it and can stop against.

Last edited by kcstott; 05-10-2019 at 11:17 AM..
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Thanks KC for the tips. It appears we're both looking to get double use out of our rifles, being able to play at F-class and Precision Rifle. I'll see you at the next LR/PPR in June.
Yeah I'm trying to get double duty out of my rifle right now. Until I can get a new barrel for this rifle and then start building my F open rifle it will be a compromise to shot two styles with one gun. Hopefully by the end of the year I'll have it rebarrled in 6XC then i can start on my F open that will also be in 6XC. and I need to build my Daughter a rifle too.. also in 6XC
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Old 05-10-2019, 5:26 PM
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Well that's just bad practice and probably as accurate as just resting the gun on its barrel. See most after market actions were cut for a factory internal box and don't have much in the way of a real positive stop surface for the mag to get a god seat on. So the mag can get pushed up further in the action than it should be.
While I try not to use the mag, a lot of people do, especially if the roof top is really steep where other than running 5 rounders it can be tough not to have contact. Running up on the Gamechangers also can pressure the mags.. Sometimes you need to do what makes the gun stable.. MDs are working to keep us on our toes.

Either way, almost all mag/feed issue as of late I am noticing are Magpul. It is just not worth the risk in my opinion.
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Old 05-11-2019, 3:20 AM
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While I try not to use the mag, a lot of people do, especially if the roof top is really steep where other than running 5 rounders it can be tough not to have contact. Running up on the Gamechangers also can pressure the mags.. Sometimes you need to do what makes the gun stable.. MDs are working to keep us on our toes.

Either way, almost all mag/feed issue as of late I am noticing are Magpul. It is just not worth the risk in my opinion.
From just an operator standpoint (i.e. nothing wrong with the gun) I agree all the feed issues have been mag pul. Which is why I don't have mag pul anymore. Please keep in mind I've shot a total three Precision rifle matches at Pendleton, so my hands on experience is low. I didn't think about the steep pitched roof and yes the gamechanger too i can see that causing issues.

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Old 05-11-2019, 7:29 AM
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From just an operator standpoint (i.e. nothing wrong with the gun) I agree all the feed issues have been mag pul. Which is why I don't have mag pul anymore. Please keep in mind I've shot a total three Precision rifle matches at Pendleton, so my hands on experience is low. I didn't think about the steep pitched roof and yes the gamchanger too i can see that causing issues.


Camp Pendleton? Did you shoot last Sundayís match?

I pulled an all-nighter and drove down. Whew getting to old for that kind of no sleep thing, was a bit hard to stay focused.

Great group of guys at the Camp P match. Smoothy8500 was there but I didnít get a chance to connect the name to a face.

Or PRS Regional qual is next weekend (we are over full), are you shootings that one?

Hope to meet you at one of the matches.

Jim T


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Old 05-11-2019, 8:53 AM
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Camp Pendleton? Did you shoot last Sunday’s match?

I pulled an all-nighter and drove down. Whew getting to old for that kind of no sleep thing, was a bit hard to stay focused.

Great group of guys at the Camp P match. Smoothy8500 was there but I didn’t get a chance to connect the name to a face.

Or PRS Regional qual is next weekend (we are over full), are you shootings that one?

Hope to meet you at one of the matches.

Jim T


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Smoothy is one of the medics, I'm sure you've bumped into him we are SMGC regulars.

I was there last Sunday I helped set up and tear down and haul people to and from 116A parking lot. I was a squad mom in training on Serge's squad. And No I won't be shooting a regional qualifier. I'm just there to support the club. I shoot F Class as my Primary discipline. The only PRS stuff I plan on doing will be on Pendleton. At least for now.

I stepped away from Calguns for a time. I had to reevaluate what and why i was posting. I tended to just argue and that's not good. So I stay away from the Gunsmith and reloading board. I poke my head in here every once in awhile to see whats going on.

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Old 05-11-2019, 10:28 AM
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Default Equipment changes from F-class to Precsion Rifle

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Smoothy is one of the medics, I'm sure you've bumped into him we are SMGC regulars.

I was there last Sunday I helped set up and tear down and haul people to and from 116A parking lot. I was a squad mom in training on Serge's squad. And No I won't be shooting a regional qualifier. I'm just there to support the club. I shoot F Class as my Primary discipline. The only PRS stuff I plan on doing will be on Pendleton. At least for now.

I stepped away from Calguns for a time. I had to reevaluate what and why i was posting. I tended to just argue and that's not good. So I stay away from the Gunsmith and reloading board. I poke my head in here every once in awhile to see whats going on.


Small world really. Serge is really nice guy and very good shooter as is Jerge. I would not have been able to get in the gates if he didnít help organize the path. I was in the next squad over

Btw Iím with you that online communication is tough. I post stuff all the time that ďsounds one way in my headĒ, but I am sure often comes across completely differently.

Someone that was offended by a reading a post or a portly written one like I am always posting , might otherwise be in an enjoyably conversation discussing the same information, if it was face to face over beer or coffee.

Jim T




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Old 05-12-2019, 5:51 AM
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Small world really. Serge is really nice guy and very good shooter as is Jerge. I would not have been able to get in the gates if he didnít help organize the path. I was in the next squad over

Btw Iím with you that online communication is tough. I post stuff all the time that ďsounds one way in my headĒ, but I am sure often comes across completely differently.

Someone that was offended by a reading a post or a portly written one like I am always posting , might otherwise be in an enjoyably conversation discussing the same information, if it was face to face over beer or coffee.

Jim T




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Yeah same issues here well that and I called BS like a reflex. and that was never good. I finally figured out that I don't have to post every opinion i have.

I'll be at the pistol match next weekend and the following precision matches. I'll make it a point to introduce myself.
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Old 05-12-2019, 7:06 AM
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Default Equipment changes from F-class to Precsion Rifle

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Yeah same issues here well that and I called BS like a reflex. and that was never good. I finally figured out that I don't have to post every opinion i have.



I'll be at the pistol match next weekend and the following precision matches. I'll make it a point to introduce myself.

I think like many PR shooters, that travel all over to shoot, I need to look at the schedules.. you guys are within driving distance, just about 900 mile round trip but on that edge where a plane starts looking attractive.

Iíd like to get down there again, but it might not be until later in the year when the cold slows a lot of the other matches down.



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Old 05-12-2019, 10:07 AM
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As dumb as this sounds, I hate the factory 5-round AICS mags I have because the lips are rough and scratch my brass something fierce.
I tune AICS mags by bending the lips to suit a specific gun as needed and polishing the lips to make the cartridges slide smoother without being scratched.
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:15 AM
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I tune AICS mags by bending the lips to suit a specific gun as needed and polishing the lips to make the cartridges slide smoother without being scratched.
Any tips on tuning the mag lips if it becomes an issue with other mags? So far my AICS magazine feeds dummy rounds well both slow and rapid. I tested it with simulating pressure both from below and also pressing against a barricade. I plan on picking up a couple more mags in the future.
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
As I recall at the SMGC clinic not too long ago there was someone using Magpuls that had unexplained issues when the mag contacted the barricade. Makes sense the feed lips might get pushed up and snag the bolt.
This sometimes happens with steel mags as well.
This can be eliminated by working on the mag lips though.

A properly tuned mag should be able to be pushed up into the action without the bolt dragging or binding.
Most people are not tuning them to take full advantage of being able to use the mag as a rest or a support.

The AICS mag design has a stop feature which is supposed to stop against the reciever before the mag lips reach the bolt.
This usually requires some tuning to include shortening the lips and then bending them to set the proper cartridge height.
The correct cartridge height is when the case head is presented to the bolt bore without ANY primer showing.
If you are not seeing almost all the way to the primer pocket, the cartridges are presenting low.
If you are seeing part of the primer pocket, the cases are presenting high.
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Old 05-20-2019, 2:28 PM
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If you are not seeing almost all the way to the primer pocket, the cartridges are presenting low.
If you are seeing part of the primer pocket, the cases are presenting high.
Perfect, got the mags tuned and polished the lips with some emery cloth.

Found a used Steiner T5Xi 5-25X for a really good price and waiting on some rings.
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