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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-18-2019, 3:03 PM
hotrail hotrail is offline
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Default muzzle brake -- shim vs. crush washer

Is there any benefit to using shims vs. crush washers to time a muzzle brake? I have a brake I need to install on my Remington 700 PCR. The brake was supplied with a crush washer. I suppose the first step should be to thread the brake on and see how it is timed without.

Do you ordinarily use a bit of thread locker on brakes? Like the blue Loctite?
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2019, 3:10 PM
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Shims can be re-used.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2019, 3:13 PM
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No thread locker required with crush washers. Probably not with shims either unless you are running a suppressor.
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Old 05-18-2019, 3:24 PM
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Take it to a qualified gunsmith and have it timed properly. No shim/crush washer needed if done right. Also, no thread locker needed, as it will need to be removed for cleaning periodically.
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Old 05-18-2019, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
Take it to a qualified gunsmith and have it timed properly. No shim/crush washer needed if done right. Also, no thread locker needed, as it will need to be removed for cleaning periodically.
Or, just get one of the self-timing brakes like the heathen or little bastard.
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Old 05-18-2019, 8:32 PM
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Shims also do not leave gap area, which crush washers do when not fully crushed.


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  #7  
Old 05-18-2019, 9:26 PM
DrJeds44 DrJeds44 is offline
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Shims make for a much cleaner installation.
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Old 05-21-2019, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicky View Post
Or, just get one of the self-timing brakes like the heathen or little bastard.
another option is the Spartan Precision Kopis brake.

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  #9  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
Take it to a qualified gunsmith and have it timed properly. No shim/crush washer needed if done right.
I don't understand the assertion that no shim or washer is needed. How is a "qualified gunsmith" going to get the brake correctly timed without use of shims or washer? Are they trained to just miracle the brake securely in the correct position?
The fact is, unless the threads on muzzle and brake just happen to have been cut perfectly--in relation to one another, and by different manufacturers--such that the brake threads right on and stops at just the right point of its rotation on the threads (which seems unlikely), then is it not inevitable that it will be necessary to time the brake, either with shims, a crush washer, or a lock nut? I guess the other alternative would be to mill some material off of the brake or barrel until the brake is correctly timed. That would be a complicated task, and would mar the finish. But that is why the world uses shims and crush washers, right? Which is what a gunsmith would do...

Last edited by hotrail; 05-21-2019 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
I don't understand the assertion that no shim or washer is needed. How is a "qualified gunsmith" going to get the brake correctly timed without use of shims or washer? Are they trained to just miracle the brake securely in the correct position?
The fact is, unless the threads on muzzle and brake just happen to have been cut perfectly--in relation to one another, and by different manufacturers--such that the brake threads right on and stops at just the right point of its rotation on the threads (which seems unlikely), then is it not inevitable that it will be necessary to time the brake, either with shims, a crush washer, or a lock nut? I guess the other alternative would be to mill some material off of the brake or barrel until the brake is correctly timed. That would be a complicated task, and would mar the finish. But that is why the world uses shims and crush washers, right?
if you're paying a gunsmith to time a brake, they should be turning the barrel shoulder on lathe

very common, not a complicated task at all.
way easier than cutting/reaming a chamber
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:57 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRyiMMX-k2g

Last edited by mmlook; 05-21-2019 at 10:59 PM..
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2019, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
I guess the other alternative would be to mill some material off of the brake or barrel until the brake is correctly timed. That would be a complicated task, and would mar the finish. But that is why the world uses shims and crush washers, right? Which is what a gunsmith would do...
No, won't mar the finish done right. Sinister Arms did my seamless AR15 and AR15barrels did one of my bolt actions. If anything, you'd only be recoating the muzzle break. No biggie.

You should be able to mount a muzzle break with crush, or shim without any help.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2019, 7:20 AM
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There are several brakes available now that do not need washers or shims to properly time. Spartan, Area 419, American Precision Arms. Take your pick. All good products.
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  #14  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
I don't understand the assertion that no shim or washer is needed. How is a "qualified gunsmith" going to get the brake correctly timed without use of shims or washer? Are they trained to just miracle the brake securely in the correct position?
The fact is, unless the threads on muzzle and brake just happen to have been cut perfectly--in relation to one another, and by different manufacturers--such that the brake threads right on and stops at just the right point of its rotation on the threads (which seems unlikely), then is it not inevitable that it will be necessary to time the brake, either with shims, a crush washer, or a lock nut? I guess the other alternative would be to mill some material off of the brake or barrel until the brake is correctly timed. That would be a complicated task, and would mar the finish. But that is why the world uses shims and crush washers, right? Which is what a gunsmith would do...
Man, it sure sounds like you know what you're talking about, WE should be asking YOU the questions! You should spread your knowledge far and wide, I'd hate for some poor gunsmith to attempt to time a brake sans shims or a crush washer without your knowledge.
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  #15  
Old 05-22-2019, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
Is there any benefit to using shims vs. crush washers to time a muzzle brake? I have a brake I need to install on my Remington 700 PCR. The brake was supplied with a crush washer. I suppose the first step should be to thread the brake on and see how it is timed without.

Do you ordinarily use a bit of thread locker on brakes? Like the blue Loctite?
Machining is best.
Shims are next.
Crush washer is worst.

The reason is that crush washers don't necessarily crush evenly.
Shims will at least be flat when tight since they do not collapse.

Most suppressor mounts come with strich warnings against use of a crush washer and usually include shims.
This is because the mount must remain straight/square to the bore so that bullets do not impact the muzzle device.

I recommend muzzle brakes and barrels be machined to time correctly without any shims or crush washers and I provide that service.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MongooseV8 View Post
Shims can be re-used.
So can crush washers as long as they have enough travel remaining in them.
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  #17  
Old 05-22-2019, 1:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicky View Post
Or, just get one of the self-timing brakes like the heathen or little bastard.
Take note that no self-timing brakes are used as suppressor mounts.
I have threaded a LOT of barrels and then installed "self timing" brakes on them while the barrel is still setup in the lathe with less than 0.0002" bore runout and I have found that self timing brakes generally do not have an exit hole centered on the bore.



Here is a machine timed surefire brake:

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  #18  
Old 05-22-2019, 1:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
I don't understand the assertion that no shim or washer is needed. How is a "qualified gunsmith" going to get the brake correctly timed without use of shims or washer? Are they trained to just miracle the brake securely in the correct position?
The fact is, unless the threads on muzzle and brake just happen to have been cut perfectly--in relation to one another, and by different manufacturers--such that the brake threads right on and stops at just the right point of its rotation on the threads (which seems unlikely), then is it not inevitable that it will be necessary to time the brake, either with shims, a crush washer, or a lock nut? I guess the other alternative would be to mill some material off of the brake or barrel until the brake is correctly timed. That would be a complicated task, and would mar the finish. But that is why the world uses shims and crush washers, right? Which is what a gunsmith would do...
A qualified machinist can cut the shoulder or the back of the brake back to time the muzzle device perfectly WITHOUT shims or washers of any sort.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
Man, it sure sounds like you know what you're talking about, WE should be asking YOU the questions!
You should spread your knowledge far and wide,
I'd hate for some poor gunsmith to attempt to time a brake sans shims or a crush washer without your knowledge.
Right?
I have done it over 1000 times and just now found out it can't be done.
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  #20  
Old 05-22-2019, 2:19 PM
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Randall...how many times do we have to tell you to please stop doing the impossible
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