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  #1  
Old 05-21-2022, 4:28 PM
SBC400 SBC400 is offline
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Default Intra-familial Transfer Came Back Incomplete

I transferred a couple firearms to my son last year, and we reported the transfer via mail using the intra-familial form. 11 months later he just received a letter saying that it was incomplete. We followed all direction on the form.

The letter says:
Please provide pictures for your firearm. Please ensure they are clear full length pictures of both sides of the firearm and include at least one close up that shows the serial number, magazine release, make, and model. Please resubmit your CRIS Reporting Form with the pictures to expedite processing.

This is for a Ruger PC carbine. The second firearm is a Glock which we did not receive a letter for.

They want us to resubmit the form by mail.

Why are they asking for pictures? Is that common?

I should have used the CFARS site in the first place. Can I now resubmit there?

Looking for advice on this one. It has been almost a year for them to respond and I don't want them blaming the delays on us.
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2022, 4:39 PM
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There is no legislative or regulatory authority for that request.

Reply; ask them for the legislative or regulatory authority. Stories here so far suggest they fold and complete the registration.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2022, 4:52 PM
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They sent back the original forms. Missing the $20 check that was included of course.

So I am guessing I need to re-submit on the CFARs site now?
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2022, 5:06 PM
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I've been there. Forgot the g**d**n check after filling everything out.

Just resubmit. It'll go through.

With the check, of course.
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2022, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SBC400 View Post
They sent back the original forms. Missing the $20 check that was included of course.

So I am guessing I need to re-submit on the CFARs site now?
They took copies of the OPLAW and have it on file.

And pay another $20? No, just do as Librarian suggested. This same DOJ fishing expedition has happened to multiple others before you.

They have no legal basis to even make such a ludicrous demand.

You were required by statute, to file the OPLAW form, and pay the fee. Both of which you have done. Check bank statement. As soon as they cash the check. They have no legal recourse other than entering your sons 2 guns into AFS.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2022, 5:16 PM
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I found it amusing...the $20 check missing.

Going to re-submit on CFARs. When I do, it is going to ask when the transfer took place. Should I include this letter to show that we have been trying for a year? So they don't say we didn't report it within the 30 days?

Edit...the reply above came as I was typing this. Reply by mail again or CFARs? I checked my bank records, the check has not been cashed.

Last edited by SBC400; 05-21-2022 at 5:23 PM..
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2022, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SBC400 View Post
I found it amusing...the $20 check missing.

Going to re-submit on CFARs. When I do, it is going to ask when the transfer took place. Should I include this letter to show that we have been trying for a year? So they don't say we didn't report it within the 30 days?

Edit...the reply above came as I was typing this. Reply by mail again or CFARs? I checked my bank records, the check has not been cashed.
I would reply by mail following Librarians instruction.
Quote:
Reply; ask them for the legislative or regulatory authority. Stories here so far suggest they fold and complete the registration.
The check missing, and form returned is clear proof they received both. That fulfills your legal obligation. Just keep an eye on your bank statements.

It may take a month or more before they deposit the fee check.
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2022, 10:15 PM
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Several have been through this. Many have responded like Librarian suggests. I don't think I've seen a case where anyone reported any outcome other than a letter stating the request had been processed. There are a few threads about it. One here: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1516512
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2022, 5:13 PM
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I don't get it. If providing the requested pictures poses no problem, why not just do so? I have no experience with this type of thing, but would enclose a polite letter to the effect that you believe you have done everything required by law to affect a transfer of the carbine, enclose the requested photos, and DOJ believes further need be done ask them what remains to be done and that it provides authority for their position. Also, why you need pay a second fee when each firearm was included on the first application.
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2022, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
I don't get it. If providing the requested pictures poses no problem, why not just do so? I have no experience with this type of thing, but would enclose a polite letter to the effect that you believe you have done everything required by law to affect a transfer of the carbine, enclose the requested photos, and DOJ believes further need be done ask them what remains to be done and that it provides authority for their position. Also, why you need pay a second fee when each firearm was included on the first application.
You are giving bad advise.
Neither law no regulations require photos for this particular transaction. All that SBC400 need to do is type up letter telling DOJ that he complied and ask DOJ to provide reference to their requirement. Put everything in envelope and send back to DOJ. In two or three month he will get letter from DOJ with approval. I have personally done this and number of other CGN members done it too. Plenty of threads on the subject. No second fee is needed.
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2022, 6:38 PM
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I got a similar response to my new resident registration. I submitted by paper. They asked for photos of my M1 Garand, both sides, blah, blah, and the magazine release

I contacted them by email and they said paper forms can only have paper responses, so I wrote them a polite note by hand (printer was broken at the time). I basically said "I don't understand why you are asking for photos. Also, an M1 rifle doesn't have a mag release." And mailed it back to them.

A couple months later I received my completed registration
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2022, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
I don't get it. If providing the requested pictures poses no problem, why not just do so? I have no experience with this type of thing, but would enclose a polite letter to the effect that you believe you have done everything required by law to affect a transfer of the carbine, enclose the requested photos, and DOJ believes further need be done ask them what remains to be done and that it provides authority for their position. Also, why you need pay a second fee when each firearm was included on the first application.

The problem, to any liberty loving citizen of the United States. Is that the DOJ is tasked with assuring that people follow the laws as written in Ca.

But has refused to follow the law as written themselves. And is making extra-legal demands of citizens. BEFORE, they will complete the job the were already payed the fee to finish.

That is easily defined and construed as extortion.

Quote:
noun: extortion;
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
As well as cautioning OP to NOT COMPLY, at all. Since he had already fulfilled ALL LEGAL requirements of the OPLAW.

OP asked;
Quote:
So I am guessing I need to re-submit on the CFARs site now?
He already payed by paper check, with paper application. To re-submit in CFARS, would require he pay again with a credit card.
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2022, 4:28 PM
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After reading so many horror stories of Failed family transfers. Or big road blocks, like in this post. Most issues revolve around just not getting any proof of transfer. I say it's best just to go to your favorite FFL or local gun shop. And do a privet party transfer. Won't cost you that much more. And it's done in 10 days.
I love my family and trust them 100%. But gifting or swapping guns. Then sitting around for 8 months. Wondering who's gun it is. Is not fun.
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Old 06-16-2022, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hayduke Lives View Post
After reading so many horror stories of Failed family transfers. Or big road blocks, like in this post. Most issues revolve around just not getting any proof of transfer. I say it's best just to go to your favorite FFL or local gun shop. And do a privet party transfer. Won't cost you that much more. And it's done in 10 days.
I love my family and trust them 100%. But gifting or swapping guns. Then sitting around for 8 months. Wondering who's gun it is. Is not fun.
Personally, I'm not going to sit around waiting for the government to tell me what I own or don't own. It's not within their authority. I file the Intra-familial Transfer form, they cash my check and I have a paper trail documenting ownership and that the transfer was completed appropriately. Not one inch...
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2022, 7:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayduke Lives View Post
After reading so many horror stories of Failed family transfers. Or big road blocks, like in this post. Most issues revolve around just not getting any proof of transfer. I say it's best just to go to your favorite FFL or local gun shop. And do a privet party transfer. Won't cost you that much more. And it's done in 10 days.
I love my family and trust them 100%. But gifting or swapping guns. Then sitting around for 8 months. Wondering who's gun it is. Is not fun.
Nonsense. There is no wait involved with an instate intrafamily transfer. Nothing to wonder about, ownership transfers when the firearm is transferred. The form merely reports what has already taken place.
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  #16  
Old 06-16-2022, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayduke Lives View Post
After reading so many horror stories of Failed family transfers. Or big road blocks, like in this post. Most issues revolve around just not getting any proof of transfer. I say it's best just to go to your favorite FFL or local gun shop. And do a privet party transfer. Won't cost you that much more. And it's done in 10 days.
I love my family and trust them 100%. But gifting or swapping guns. Then sitting around for 8 months. Wondering who's gun it is. Is not fun.
Why wonder?

Presuming the transaction is between two non-prohibited CA-resident family members in the parent/child or grandparent/grandchild relationship (or husband/wife), the intrafamilial transfer paperwork documents a transfer that has already occurred.

Your legal obligation is to file the information and pay the fee.

It's Penal Code 27875(a)(3):
Quote:
(3) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall submit a report to the Department of Justice, in a manner prescribed by the department, that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this subdivision shall be made available to them in a format prescribed by the department.
That the CA DOJ is having some difficulty updating their records has little or no relevance to you. And they are under no obligation to send you any kind of confirmation, nor are you obliged to wait for such a thing.

There are a few, relatively rare cases where a bit of 'waiting' might be useful -
1 - If the transfer is a handgun, the receiver wants to add that gun to his/her CCW, and that CCW-issuing agency demands that the gun on the license be registered to the carrier in California's Automated Firearms System (AFS) or
2 - the receiver wants to immediately sell the gun through a CA FFL; there can be a sequencing problem where the FFL sale is entered before the intrafamilial transfer is entered, which confuses DOJ but really has no effect on the legality of anything.

And, for those kinds of cases, creating a CFARS id and running the transaction on-line through that interface will substantially cure those concerns.
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– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

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Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.”

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Last edited by Librarian; 06-16-2022 at 7:39 PM..
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Old 06-17-2022, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by OlderThanDirt View Post
Personally, I'm not going to sit around waiting for the government to tell me what I own or don't own. It's not within their authority. I file the Intra-familial Transfer form, they cash my check and I have a paper trail documenting ownership and that the transfer was completed appropriately. Not one inch...
I feel about the same. I suppose there may be some situations where a problem is created for the owner if the transfer isn't promptly recorded in AFS, posibly if an issuer won't approve a firearm for CCW until it is AFS, but for most situations who really cares as long as they have the receipt and copies of the filing.
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Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.

Last edited by Chewy65; 06-17-2022 at 9:39 PM..
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Old 06-17-2022, 10:02 PM
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Thanks for the post. My son is giving me some pistols and we will have to fill out the forms. I'll remember to include pictures of the pistol.
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Old 06-18-2022, 5:14 AM
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Originally Posted by not-fishing View Post
Thanks for the post. My son is giving me some pistols and we will have to fill out the forms. I'll remember to include pictures of the pistol.
Do you drive 50 mph in a 55 zone, just in case?

Don't do more than the law requires. There is no legal basis for the DOJ to ask for pictures; politely tell them to pound sand.
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.”
– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

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Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.”

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Old 06-18-2022, 6:44 AM
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In my experience, they only ask for photos of rifles.
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Old 06-18-2022, 8:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not-fishing View Post
Thanks for the post. My son is giving me some pistols and we will have to fill out the forms. I'll remember to include pictures of the pistol.
It would be nice of you to also include photos of your birth certificate, social security number, credit cards numbers and combination to your gun safe, just in case.
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Old 06-18-2022, 8:56 AM
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I got the same letter a month ago for my M1A. They requested photos. I sent them through the cfsrs and then got a complete letter in the mail.
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Old 06-18-2022, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MyOdessa View Post
It would be nice of you to also include photos of your birth certificate, social security number, credit cards numbers and combination to your gun safe, just in case.
I do it to protect him, not me.
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Old 06-20-2022, 5:39 PM
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AND POOF!

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Old 06-21-2022, 2:35 PM
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I do it to protect him, not me.
Good for you. What certain folk don't realize is that the employment situations of some of us can be seriously disturbed if they insist on standing on their rights, when an issue can easily be put to rest by volunatrily complying with "requests".

Then again, there are times when I agree with taking a hard stance on "requests".
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Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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Old 06-21-2022, 9:31 PM
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AND POOF AGAIN
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  #27  
Old 06-21-2022, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Good for you. What certain folk don't realize is that the employment situations of some of us can be seriously disturbed if they insist on standing on their rights, when an issue can easily be put to rest by voluntarily complying with "requests".

Then again, there are times when I agree with taking a hard stance on "requests".
I must agree with what you are saying. Just because we may arrive and different conclusions does not mean that differing views are not worthy of consideration.
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