'Delayed' Notices from DOJ re: purchases

[B.J.F.]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

I’m a worst case scenario, failure to show for Jury duty is a $200 infraction. And only AFTER, due process.

I missed my jury duty this month. Last month had gotten recycled because the perp had a plea bargain. They only gave me 10 days notice on the second notice. I miss read 2/10/2022 for 2/21/2022.


Had to call Kingman this Tuesday as it was out of the Bullhead courts hands. The clerk noted the call and put me in the jury pool. Said it wouldn’t count as disregarding service. She also said I should have gotten more time than 10 days from receipt. It’s not adequate enough notice to an employer for time off to serve.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by benjamin101677

[1] ... For talking to gun shops I found that very few are going release on undetermined status as the liability is going to back on the gun store.

[2] ... It’s not like doj says that after 30 days it’s okay to release they leave it up to the gun shop. Most shops aren’t going risk it by releasing.

[3] ... Now if somebody was a regular and had maybe a concealed carry license etc some shops would release. Just not going do it for John Doe citizen that nobody knows

[1] ... There is NO LIABILITY, either criminal or civil. For a Ca FFL following the law and releasing for transfer after an "undetermined" DOJ finding after 30 days. Ca PC-28220 [4]. That has been the LAW since Jan 1, 2014.

[2] ... DOJ doesn't have to say anything. The LAW says, what the LAW says.

{3] ... They CAN and SHOULD release for transfer after the 30 day undetermined status is met. THAT'S THE LAW. If they don't it's because they are DICKs.

[jeremiah12]

Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls

Missed jury duty doesn’t matter. People don’t realize they do not actually issue warrants. It wouldn’t hold up in court anyway since there’s no way they can prove you skipped out.

In my county, the process is they call to reschedule a day that you will come in and sit all day in the jury room rather than just assign you a group number and you call in every day for a week to determine if you show up in the morning or call back the next day. Over half who do this never go down to sit in the jury room and are excused from being called again for at least a year.

If you miss that assigned day, then a sheriff deputy will come to your place of work or home and serve you with a summons to appear in court. On the date you are to appear, at 8 am, the judge will assign you to the jury room. If you miss that date, a bench warrant will be issued and a deputy will be sent out to retrieve you.

If you are found quickly and the judge is in a good mood, you can be assigned to the jury room. If it takes time to find you, if you are uncooperative, or the judge is in a bad mood, you will be found in contempt of court and assigned to a holding cell for a week at the court house. We have a brand new courthouse with holding cells that are staffed by deputies 24/7 and are for housing those found in contempt of court or other prisoners that are not dangerous enough to need to be held at the main county lockup every night. It saves on transportation costs

This was done because the percentage of people ignoring jury summons was approaching 80%.

This has been in place for about 6 years and now rather than getting a jury summons every 1, people in the county are getting them on average about every 3 years. Sending a deputy to serve notice proves you were given noticed and you ignored it. It allows the court to place a hold on any professional license you have with the state. That gets peoples attention fast.

[jeremiah12]

CA PC 282820

(4) If the department is unable to ascertain the final disposition of the arrest or criminal charge, or the outcome of the mental health treatment or evaluation, or the purchaser’s eligibility to purchase a firearm, as described in paragraph (1), within 30 days of the dealer’s original submission of purchaser information to the department pursuant to this section, the department shall immediately notify the dealer and the dealer may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser, upon the dealer’s recording on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is transferred, the dealer signing the register or record of electronic transfer indicating delivery of the firearm to that purchaser, and the purchaser signing the register or record of electronic transfer acknowledging the receipt of the firearm on the date that the firearm is delivered to the purchaser.

The bolded part I added. The key word is may. The law does not state the FFL will deliver, it states may deliver. A careful reading makes it clear that it is up to the discretion of the FFL to release or not release.

I would love to see someone file suit over an FFL not releasing on undetermined because that word, "may" would be a tough one to argue that the FFL is required to deliver because the receipt is a contract argument.

The ATF has made it clear that no FFL is required to sell a firearm to anyone that can pass a background check. In fact, they have pulled FFL licenses of some for allowing what they consider obvious straw purchases to happen in undercover sting operations and other issues where crimes were committed with a gun sold by the FFL.

The FFL is expected by the ATF and DOJ to do some due diligence on their part.

Nothing in that PC absolves them from any liability. In a civil suit, it is easy for one to argue that the red flag ignored was the state not being able to determine if they were able to pass a background check so the safe course of action was to not complete the transfer.

This becomes an issue of how much the FFL wants to CYA and many will consult their own attorney who will be the ones that have to defend against any legal action and their liability insurance carrier that will have to pay out on claims and some times dictate what their policies will be in order to get coverage or to get coverage at a decent rate.

It is a balancing act and if the FFL is up front and states we do not deliver on undetermined and provides a full refund of the firearm purchase price (if bought from their stock) then it would be very difficult, I believe to win a court action by saying they violated a contract when the law said they may deliver not they shall deliver.

In my city, no FFL will deliver on undetermined because the City has that requirement in order to issue the permits for a FFL to operate in the city limits. It is part of their campaign to get guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous people.

It is stupid because those are the people who do not buy guns from FFLs because they cannot pass the background checks. That is also the reason the small table top FFLs are outside the city limits. The city will also not give them permits to operate because they require they have an actual store in an area zoned for industrial or commercial use with a few other restrictions. They are not allowed in residential areas or near schools.

Reading comprehension is very important. You cannot read a passage of the PC and then interpret it to make it mean what you want it to mean. Something you accused someone else of doing in another thread.

The is a huge difference between may and shall and that is why CCWs are such a problem in this state. We want them to be shall issue but the law is written to be may issue. That is a huge difference and left up to the discretion of the issuing agency. That is why my city police chief is no issue and my sheriff is mostly will issue but part of the process is to contact your employer to find out what their policy of guns at the workplace is. If it is no guns allowed, then that restriction is placed on your permit so if your employer calls the sheriff's office to say you had your gun at work, you lose your permit, without any sort of due process.

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

Originally Posted by jeremiah12

In my county, the process is they call to reschedule a day that you will come in and sit all day in the jury room rather than just assign you a group number and you call in every day for a week to determine if you show up in the morning or call back the next day. Over half who do this never go down to sit in the jury room and are excused from being called again for at least a year.

If you miss that assigned day, then a sheriff deputy will come to your place of work or home and serve you with a summons to appear in court. On the date you are to appear, at 8 am, the judge will assign you to the jury room. If you miss that date, a bench warrant will be issued and a deputy will be sent out to retrieve you.

If you are found quickly and the judge is in a good mood, you can be assigned to the jury room. If it takes time to find you, if you are uncooperative, or the judge is in a bad mood, you will be found in contempt of court and assigned to a holding cell for a week at the court house. We have a brand new courthouse with holding cells that are staffed by deputies 24/7 and are for housing those found in contempt of court or other prisoners that are not dangerous enough to need to be held at the main county lockup every night. It saves on transportation costs

This was done because the percentage of people ignoring jury summons was approaching 80%.

This has been in place for about 6 years and now rather than getting a jury summons every 1, people in the county are getting them on average about every 3 years. Sending a deputy to serve notice proves you were given noticed and you ignored it. It allows the court to place a hold on any professional license you have with the state. That gets people's attention fast.

I may be wrong, but I believe many counties do this. What you left out though is the beginning of the process. Or I mis understood it. If you get a summons in the mail in my county, you start out with calling in to see if you are needed to come down. So, the initial start of the process cannot be enforced if they cannot prove you got the call slip.

[pacrat]

jeremiah; your latest wall of text is chocked full of your own misconceptions.

MAY is not THE operable word in 28220 [4]. It is but one of them. And is used in exactly the same context, using the same PROPER definition as it does in 28220 [A]. That's why the wording for both {approved @ 10 days} and {approved @ 30 days} are the same. BOTH are approved, differentiated only by the number of days.

may. verb.
1) a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall," which makes it imperative.
2) in STATUTES, and sometimes in contracts, the word "may" must be read in context to determine if it means an act is optional or mandatory, for it may be an imperative. The same careful analysis must be made of the word "shall." Non-lawyers tend to see the word "may" and think they have a choice or are excused from complying with some statutory provision or regulation. (See: shall)

The CONTEXT of the statute is clear, once you understand the structure it conveys. And the PROPER DEFINITION of the word. Which you obviously don't, because you are conflating "may" as a permissive or optional context. Which it is not. It is used in a [STATUTE] and as such, its manner of use is denoting an "IMPERATIVE MANDATE" by context.

may then immediately transfer

Making it NOT ONLY a imperative mandate. But also mandating that the action [transfer]. BE DONE IMMEDIATELY.

The IMPERATIVE definition of "MAY" in statutes. Is in literally EVERY LAW SCHOOL DICTIONARY. Dating back to 1856.

YOUR ATF comments have ZERO relevance. ATF couldn't care less about anything that isn't Fed LAW.
DROS implemented in 1991. Created 28220[A]. 28220[4] was added in 2014. After passage of AB-500 over 23 yrs later. After continued abuses by DOJ in relation to REFUSALS to release for transfer by "delayed" status determination. Creating untenable situations where DOJ delayed a transfer, sometimes for yrs. Buyer couldn't take possession. And Dealer couldn't sell to anyone else. Because gun was part of an ongoing delayed DROS, that went unresolved.

USE SEARCH .... And my user name .... Look for "MAY" and "UNDETERMINED". It's been gone over and over since 2014 here on CG.

Nothing in that PC absolves them from any liability. In a civil suit, it is easy for one to argue that the red flag ignored was the state not being able to determine if they were able to pass a background check so the safe course of action was to not complete the transfer.

Backwards logic at work. PC doesn't absolve anything. It CREATES criminal liability. The civil liability envisioned out of whole cloth, is a fantasy. It doesn't exist. Google "PLCAA" and read it.

I invite you to find ANY ACTUAL CASE CITES to support your premises. GOOD LUCK, there are exactly NONE. Not one instance of a Ca FFL facing any criminal or civil liability for following the law as written, and delivering after 30 days on an undetermined status.

Reading comprehension is very important. You cannot read a passage of the PC and then interpret it to make it mean what you want it to mean.

I agree, that's why the above invitation is included. Again GOOD LUCK.

This discussion has been gone over repeatedly, over the last 8 yrs back to codification of 28220[4]

TheRE is a huge difference between may and shall and that is why CCWs are such a problem in this state.

Please read the definition of "may" as used in statutes above, and note the portion dealing with "shall"..... May/Shall are actually synonymous in certain contextual usages. Such as pc 28220[A] and [4].

Now your off topic deflections wander back into the weeds with CCW. "May" is "CONTEXTUALLY" used in the CCW statutes to clearly bestow a PERMISSIVE DISCRETION on CLEO.

"context" noun.
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

BACK AT YOU ...

"Reading comprehension is very important. You cannot read a passage of the PC and then interpret it to make it mean what you want it to mean."

[pacrat]

In my city, no FFL will deliver on undetermined because the City has that requirement in order to issue the permits for a FFL to operate in the city limits. It is part of their campaign to get guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous people.

You made the claim. Post the codified ordinance that makes the requirement enforceable.

[KrisDSA]

Well for the record. No update and no letter from the DOJ

[KrisDSA]

Still delayed and no letter from DOJ

[Russian Bot]

Last I checked 2A Zone releases on undetermined. BTW what's this off roster gold mine of yours called?

[Dan_Eastvale]

Originally Posted by KrisDSA

Still delayed and no letter from DOJ

At what point does the FFL give up and refund?

[KrisDSA]

Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale

At what point does the FFL give up and refund?

Whenever I want. Going to wait until day 30 to see what happens

[KrisDSA]

Picked up my shotgun yesterday. Have another firearm to dro and after that I am done until I leave the state.

[foothillman]

^^^^^^
So your FFL released as long as you passed the $1.00 ammo purchase?
Maybe other FFLs that do not release on undetermined could start using this check.
Think it would put a "more legal" release for FFLs.

CADOJ has random delay/undetermined that they are not required to explain.

[onelonehorseman]

As I have mentioned in so many of these "DROS delay" threads, it is best to inquire if the FFL will release upon "undetermined status" BEFORE giving them your business; just in case. Just because you are a squeaky clean citizen doesn't mean you can't end up being delayed (could even be a reason that has nothing to do with you).

It's also a good reason to develop a relationship with a LGS, because once they know you, they will be much more likely to help you out with things like this.

Good luck to all who are being delayed - I do hope everything works out for you.

[Red9]

I just purchased a handgun at SW.
They called the next day to tell me my dros is delayed? How does this happen the next day?

Sent from my T790W using Tapatalk

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by Red9

I just purchased a handgun at SW.
They called the next day to tell me my dros is delayed? How does this happen the next day?

Sent from my T790W using Tapatalk

Cause could be as simple as "MISTAKEN IDENTITY". Do you have a fairly common name? Did a bank robber previously live at your current address?

Ca State record keeping can be rated DISMAL for accuracy at best. Especially the Courts.

[onelonehorseman]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Cause could be as simple as "MISTAKEN IDENTITY". Do you have a fairly common name? Did a bank robber previously live at your current address?

Ca State record keeping can be rated DISMAL for accuracy at best. Especially the Courts.

Yep, and the end result, when dealing with a delayed DROS, is that unless the issue is REALLY simple, the DOJ likely won't have the time/staff to get it sorted out within 30 days. Hence why so many of these end up undetermined. Annnnd why it's so important to only deal with FFL's who will release after the DROS becomes undetermined.

[Red9]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Cause could be as simple as "MISTAKEN IDENTITY". Do you have a fairly common name? Did a bank robber previously live at your current address?



Ca State record keeping can be rated DISMAL for accuracy at best. Especially the Courts.

Very uncommon name. I don't even have a speeding ticket in at least 20 years. I vote. I am excused from jury duty. Work and pay taxes. Volunteer at my local range, i.e. women's defense classes. Good thing is last purchase my luger was cleared.

Sent from my T790W using Tapatalk

[KrisDSA]

So I got another delay. A week later from the start of the dro. Two times in a row. Clean Record and DOJ is no help. I can pass a ammo background no problem. Has this happened to anyone else ?

[Red9]

Originally Posted by KrisDSA

So I got another delay. A week later from the start of the dro. Two times in a row. Clean Record and DOJ is no help. I can pass a ammo background no problem. Has this happened to anyone else ?

My buddy had almost a 60 day dros. It seems the DOJ doesn't want any legal guns in Cali?

Sent from my T790W using Tapatalk

[Preston-CLB]

Take look at Post #43 by MCubiero in the following CG thread:

https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show....php?t=1791923

It may prove very helpful for those of you who are having delay issues.
-P

[SilveradoColt21]

This is scary, I am looking to DROS a handgun within the next week, hopefully all goes as planned.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by SilveradoColt21

This is scary, I am looking to DROS a handgun within the next week, hopefully all goes as planned.

BEFORE you commit to do a DROS at a FFL. ALWAYS ASK, "do you follow the law and release on undetermined"?

OR, are you a DICK, who doesn't follow the law?

[SilveradoColt21]

Originally Posted by pacrat

BEFORE you commit to do a DROS at a FFL. ALWAYS ASK, "do you follow the law and release on undetermined"?

OR, are you a DICK, who doesn't follow the law?

Yep I am calling around since I agreed to meet the seller half ways at an FFL neither of us have ever done any business with.