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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 08-01-2021, 5:12 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
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Default Any California CCW Issuing Agency w/min age 18?

Is anyone aware of any California CCW Issuing Agency (IA) that will issue to 18-20 year olds? Please don't tell me it is against California law unless you provide the exact citation of the law and quote it for discussion. Please don't quote non-authoritative websites which may have misinformation (like USCCA).

Some legal information on this topic. Many believe a person must be 21 in California to legally possess and own a handgun. This is not true, they may do so at age 18. I will detail the laws regarding ages and handguns below. One part of the reason for this confusion is how California law is structured. The California PC often makes something illegal, and then provides exceptions. I'll provide a summary of the applicable laws for those 18-20 and possessing and concealing a firearm below, and then quote and cite the specific laws in the California Penal Code (PC).

California law bans concealed carry weapons (CCW) in PC 25400, but has many exceptions for those carrying on their private property in PC 25605 (no permit required) or with a CCW permit issued per PC 26150. California CCW law in PC 25605 does require the person to be 18 to carry on the private property. However, the CCW laws starting at PC 26150 make no mention of an age requirement, other than the applicant's age must be listed on the application.

California law doesn't allow selling a handgun to those 18-20, but is silent on transfers in PC 27505(a). In fact, as we see in PC 27875(a), it even gives a process to perform these transfers.

California law requires those without an FFL license to transfer through an FFL in PC 27545. FFL's are not allowed to transfer handguns to those under age 21 per PC 27510. However, California law provides an exception to PC 27545 with PC 27875(a) and allows immediate family members to do so and use the DoJ's BOF 4544A form for an "OpLaw" or "Inter-familial" transfer, and using this process no FFL is required for the transfer.

The only age restriction for Californians and CCW permits is the policy of the Sheriff or Chief of Police (so long as the person can legally possess a hand gun, which they can at age 18 so long as they have it given to them by a parent or grandparent and it is transferred per PC 27875(a ). However, none of these CCW permit age restrictions are based on an age requirement specified by California law. The Sheriff or Chief could require someone to be age 25, or whatever age. They could also set the minimum age to 18.

Here are the details of the Penal Codes, quoting most but summarizing some, and always providing a link to their exact text.


PC 25400 essentially makes it illegal to conceal a firearm (oversimplification):
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN

However, there are many, many exceptions to PC 25400, including the CCW laws in PC2 5605 and the CCW permit laws starting at PC 26150:

PC 25605 clearly spells out that anyone at least 18 years old may have handguns, concealed or openly carried, in many of the private properties:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=25605.

PC 26150 - https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...de=PEN&title=4.

27505(a) restricts selling a handgun to those 18-20. It doesn't restrict loaning or transfering to them (it does restrict loaning or transfering to a minor, but even has exceptions to this restriction for minors listed immediately below).

"27505.(a) No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=27505.


Yes, there are California laws that require firearms to be transferred through an FFL, such as PC 27545.

"PC 27545 Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer’s license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)"

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...5.&lawCode=PEN

However, there is an exception to the requirement to use an FFL in 27545 in PC 27878(a). There are 5 requirements to legally perform a transfer without an FFL under PC 27875(a).

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...5.&lawCode=PEN

"27875(a) Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means from one individual to another, if all of the following requirements are met:

(1) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(2) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family.

(3) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall submit a report to the Department of Justice, in a manner prescribed by the department, that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this subdivision shall be made available to them in a format prescribed by the department.

(4) Until January 1, 2015, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a valid handgun safety certificate if the firearm is a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2015, a valid firearm safety certificate for any firearm, except that in the case of a handgun, a valid unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.

(5) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
"

PC 16720 defines what an "immediate family member" is (parent/child, grandparent/grandchild).
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=16720.

So, a transfer may be done per PC 27875(a) if it is (1) infrequent,(2) by a parent/child or grandparent/grandchild, (3) and the recipient files the DoJ for BOF 4544A (Report of Operations of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction), and (4) possesses a Firearm Safety Certificate, and is (5) 18 years of age.

DoJ BOF 4544A OpLaw/Intrafamilial transfer link:
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...orms/oplaw.pdf

Finally, we have another part of the law which is silent on those 18 or older having a handgun in PC 29610:
PC 29610 "A minor shall not possess a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." Tangent: even this law has exceptions for minors in PC 29615.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...e=4.&article=1.
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Old 08-01-2021, 5:58 PM
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You did all that research and you couldn’t research if anyone issues at 18
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Old 08-01-2021, 6:16 PM
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https://www.calsheriffs.org/ has links to most of the Sheriffs' web sites; probably have to read all the CCW links at those sites.

I expect you could skip LA, SF, Marin, Santa Clara...

Nicely researched, BTW.
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Old 08-01-2021, 6:35 PM
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Sutter Co with a parents gun but I believe you must reside at their home.
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Old 08-01-2021, 6:35 PM
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Not any that I’ve read.

Applicant (or you) would need to wait until 21. Can’t even buy pistol ammo at 18.
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Old 08-02-2021, 6:13 PM
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@Jason95357, you tell'em how it is, Tiger. Go tell that IA how they should be doing their jobs. Then let us know how your app goes.
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Old 08-02-2021, 8:38 PM
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Look OP, let me save you the sugarcoating. NO! NO IA is going to issue a license to carry to anyone under 21. The tortuous logic you used in an attempt to even GET a pistol under 21 should illustrate to you just how hard (and unlikely) it is.. So WHY would ANY IA open themselves up to such legal scrutiny.

Wait a few years.
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Old 08-03-2021, 7:37 AM
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Why does your signature say you have a license to carry in 6 states? Lol
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Old 08-03-2021, 8:53 AM
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You're 18.

Focus on girls and beer. Life doesn't get any easier after this point.
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
Not any that I’ve read.

Applicant (or you) would need to wait until 21. Can’t even buy pistol ammo at 18.
Sure you can. If you know how to ask for it.

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Old 08-03-2021, 2:05 PM
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Maybe nothing in the Penal code. But as with the hiring process for LEOs there is a category called "life experience" and it factors into the decision.
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Old 08-04-2021, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdun View Post
Why does your signature say you have a license to carry in 6 states? Lol
His sig says he has carry licenses from the 6 states he lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_in_ca View Post
Maybe nothing in the Penal code. But as with the hiring process for LEOs there is a category called "life experience" and it factors into the decision.
Not disagreeing, but it's a somewhat arbitrary number that at least 1 circuit court has already ruled unconstitutional.
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnparjr View Post
You did all that research and you couldn’t research if anyone issues at 18
50+ counties in California. Easier to crowdsource some info and verify if someone knows about one that issues 18-20.
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
Not any that I’ve read.

Applicant (or you) would need to wait until 21. Can’t even buy pistol ammo at 18.
Did you even read what I posted? Parents, grandparents, or a spouse at 21 or older could buy handgun or ammo and legally give to 18-20 year old.
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepergeo View Post
@Jason95357, you tell'em how it is, Tiger. Go tell that IA how they should be doing their jobs. Then let us know how your app goes.
It's not for mine, it is for my kids and nephews and nieces coming of age.

Yes, we actually tell the Sheriff how it is and elect the ones we want where I live. CCW and being pro-2A is a big issue in my county. You can thank my county and the others who front-ran becoming "shall issue" counties in 2010. Yes, Stanislaus County went "shall issue" before Sheriff Jones in Sacramento County saw the light.
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
Look OP, let me save you the sugarcoating. NO! NO IA is going to issue a license to carry to anyone under 21. The tortuous logic you used in an attempt to even GET a pistol under 21 should illustrate to you just how hard (and unlikely) it is.. So WHY would ANY IA open themselves up to such legal scrutiny.

Wait a few years.
For the record, my kids each were given handguns at 18 (and long guns prior to this, before the law changed). They have their CCW permits for states that issue to 18 year olds (the easiest to get is Maine).

We all use work-arounds to do what we want to do, including AR builds, etc. This is no different. It's just one more way to crack the nut and make true 2A access available for every legal adult, including those 18-20.

Oh, and to your "NO IA is going to issue a license to carry to anyone under 21" statement: it appears you are incorrect, and Sutter County Sheriff does issue CCW permits to those 18-20 (thanks to the other poster who actually stayed on topic and supplied this valuable information).

https://www.suttersheriff.org/divisi...ion/ccw-permit

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Old 08-04-2021, 5:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdun View Post
Why does your signature say you have a license to carry in 6 states? Lol
Because I have permits in all of those states. I travel frequently, and the reciprocity allows me to carry everywhere I go. I've actually had even more permits, when reciprocity laws made them beneficial (NH for PA, WA and ME).

The original post isn't for myself. I've had a California permit for something like 8 years, just renewed the 4th time. This is for my kids, nephews, nieces, and future grandkids who should be allowed to carry their legally owned handguns from ages 18-20 and not have to wait until 21.
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tawadc95 View Post
Sutter Co with a parents gun but I believe you must reside at their home.
Excellent! Thank you for saving me a considerable amount of time searching 50+ county websites.

Actually, the 18-20 year old can be gifted the gun from their parents or grandparents and legally own it. But, I'll read up on what the sheriff lists for their policy.

https://www.suttersheriff.org/divisi...ion/ccw-permit
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Old 08-04-2021, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_in_ca View Post
Maybe nothing in the Penal code. But as with the hiring process for LEOs there is a category called "life experience" and it factors into the decision.
I suspect (but haven't researched), that LEOs cannot give/issue handguns to those 18-20, thus there is no point in hiring someone to be a LEO before they become 21.

As I posted, parents, grandparents, and spouses may give handguns (and ammo) to those 18-20.
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Old 08-09-2021, 8:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
I suspect (but haven't researched), that LEOs cannot give/issue handguns to those 18-20, thus there is no point in hiring someone to be a LEO before they become 21.

As I posted, parents, grandparents, and spouses may give handguns (and ammo) to those 18-20.
The research….
Quote:
Government Code 1031. Each class of public officers or employees declared by law to be peace officers shall meet all of the following minimum standards:
(a) Be a citizen of the United States or a permanent resident alien who is eligible for and has applied for citizenship, except as provided in Section 2267 of the Vehicle Code.
(b) Be at least 18 years of age.
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Old 08-09-2021, 9:06 PM
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Not California but Utah offers a Provisional permit for 18-20 yr. old. You can apply for a non-resident permit but I am not sure how other states treat reciprocity for the provisional permit.

https://bci.utah.gov/information-abo...irearm-permit/

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Old 08-10-2021, 2:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
I suspect (but haven't researched), that LEOs cannot give/issue handguns to those 18-20, thus there is no point in hiring someone to be a LEO before they become 21.

As I posted, parents, grandparents, and spouses may give handguns (and ammo) to those 18-20.
Under CA laws...

LE agencies are exempt and can issue firearms to their LEOs. [PC 27605]
^There is no age requirement for this exemption.

It is also legal to loan a firearm to a person that is enrolled in a POST academy or POST certification course, for the purpose of using the firearm for the training, and the loan is exempt from needing to be done through a CA FFL dealer and the duration of the loan is until the POST academy/course ends. [PC 27970]
^There is no age requirement for this exemption.

LEOs and persons that are enrolled in a POST academy are exempt from CA ammo transfer laws, in that they can legally obtain ammo without having to utilize a CA licensed ammunition vendor or CA FFL dealer. [PC 30312(c)(2),(11)]
^So, it's legal for their LE agency to issue them ammo.

The minimum age to enroll in a POST academy or POST certification course and to be a CA LEO is 18. [GC 1031(b)]


Penal Code 27605
Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all of the following conditions are satisfied:
(a) The loan is made by an authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, or city and county, or of the state or federal government.
(b) The loan is made to a peace officer employed by that agency and authorized to carry a firearm.
(c) The loan is made for the carrying and use of that firearm by that peace officer in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

Penal Code 27970
Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if the loan of the firearm is to a person enrolled in the course of basic training prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, or any other course certified by the commission, for purposes of participation in the course.

Penal Code 30312
(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:
(1) An authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state or federal government, if the sale, delivery, or transfer is for exclusive use by that government agency and, prior to the sale, delivery, or transfer of the ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee is obtained, identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.
(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.
(11) A person enrolled in the basic training academy for peace officers or any other course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, an instructor of the academy or course, or a staff member of the academy or entity providing the course, who is purchasing the ammunition for the purpose of participation or use in the course.

Government Code 1031
Each class of public officers or employees declared by law to be peace officers shall meet all of the following minimum standards:
(a) Be a citizen of the United States or a permanent resident alien who is eligible for and has applied for citizenship, except as provided in Section 2267 of the Vehicle Code.
(b) Be at least 18 years of age.
(c) Be fingerprinted for purposes of search of local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose a criminal record.
(d) Be of good moral character, as determined by a thorough background investigation.
(e) Be a high school graduate, pass the General Education Development Test or other high school equivalency test approved by the State Department of Education that indicates high school graduation level, pass the California High School Proficiency Examination, or have attained a two-year, four-year, or advanced degree from an accredited college or university. The high school shall be either a United States public school, an accredited United States Department of Defense high school, or an accredited or approved public or nonpublic high school. Any accreditation or approval required by this subdivision shall be from a state or local government educational agency using local or state government approved accreditation, licensing, registration, or other approval standards, a regional accrediting association, an accrediting association recognized by the Secretary of the United States Department of Education, an accrediting association holding full membership in the National Council for Private School Accreditation (NCPSA), an organization holding full membership in AdvancED, an organization holding full membership in the Council for American Private Education (CAPE), or an accrediting association recognized by the National Federation of Nonpublic School State Accrediting Associations (NFNSSAA).
(f) Be found to be free from any physical, emotional, or mental condition, including bias against race or ethnicity, gender, nationality, religion, disability, or sexual orientation, that might adversely affect the exercise of the powers of a peace officer.
(1) Physical condition shall be evaluated by a licensed physician and surgeon.
(2) Emotional and mental condition shall be evaluated by either of the following:
(A) A physician and surgeon who holds a valid California license to practice medicine, has successfully completed a postgraduate medical residency education program in psychiatry accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, and has at least the equivalent of five full-time years of experience in the diagnosis and treatment of emotional and mental disorders, including the equivalent of three full-time years accrued after completion of the psychiatric residency program.
(B) A psychologist licensed by the California Board of Psychology who has at least the equivalent of five full-time years of experience in the diagnosis and treatment of emotional and mental disorders, including the equivalent of three full-time years accrued postdoctorate.
The physician and surgeon or psychologist shall also have met any applicable education and training procedures set forth by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training designed for the conduct of preemployment psychological screening of peace officers.
(g) This section shall not be construed to preclude the adoption of additional or higher standards, including age.
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Old 08-10-2021, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Not California but Utah offers a Provisional permit for 18-20 yr. old. You can apply for a non-resident permit but I am not sure how other states treat reciprocity for the provisional permit.

https://bci.utah.gov/information-abo...irearm-permit/
Not up on all states laws but I have read some of the reciprocity laws and most will not honor permits issued to people under 21.

Take ME for instance, they issue at 18. They have reciprocity with 30 states; some of which are Constitutional Carry. 17 of those states; 57%, will not honor their permits issued to someone 18. And only 1 of those; MO, will let someone under 21 carry. Though MO is Constitutional Carry for anyone 19 years old or older.

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Old 08-10-2021, 4:22 PM
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After about post #6 or 7, I quickly lost interest with this post.

I’m out…
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Old 08-11-2021, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
After about post #6 or 7, I quickly lost interest with this post.

I’m out…
But, Man, it’s for the Children:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
This is for my kids, nephews, nieces, and future grandkids who should be allowed to carry their legally owned handguns from ages 18-20 and not have to wait until 21.
Maybe I missed it, but, I’m still not sure what OP is trying to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
If I'm successful, more IAs will follow suit.
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