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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-31-2023, 3:23 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
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Arrow LA v POLYMER80

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/la...a7b3837&ei=100

Quote:
The nation?s largest manufacturer of ghost gun kits must pay millions of dollars in penalties and must conduct customer background checks and include serial numbers on its products sold throughout California, under a settlement won by the Los Angeles City Attorney?s Office.


Quote:
In 2021, then-City Attorney Mike Feuer filed a lawsuit on behalf of the people of the state of California, although the state was not involved in the case, according to the city attorney?s office. In its lawsuit, the city alleged that Polymer80 violated federal Gun Control Act requirements and California state gun laws by not conducting mandatory background checks on the people purchasing its products.

Since when is a LESS THAN 80% KIT REQUIRED TO BE SERIALIZED AND A BG CHECK [DROS] FOR PURCHASE? Other than application to DOJ for a serial before completion of a self made firearm in Crap-O-fornica?

Was this an OOC settlement aka {CAVEIN} or an actual trial? >>>doesn't say<<<

Can POLYMER80 appeal?

Other than loudly beating the LA CITY antigun agenda drum. Article is very lacking in any details or specifics.

ANYBODY GOT ANYTHING FURTHER?
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  #2  
Old 05-31-2023, 3:41 PM
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There's no federal requirement for an unfinished receiver to be serialized, so the suit was blatantly wrong on that count. However, polymer80 probably agreed to settle based on the "firearm precursor part" bill AB 1621 which requires an unserialized 80 to be sold in Ca as if it were a firearm.

Really, Polymer 80 bent the knee and agreed it broke the law opting to settle instead of defending itself. This should have been a great case to force the courts to unify on a definition of "firearm", because I guarantee this is going to be an increasing problem in the future.

Quote:
6216. For the purposes of this division, “firearm” includes the frame or receiver of the weapon, including a completed frame or receiver or a firearm precursor part. “Firearm precursor part” has the same meaning as in subdivision (a) of Section 16531 of the Penal Code.
Quote:
16531. (a) “Firearm precursor part” means any forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled or converted to be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm, or that is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed, assembled or converted.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...02120220AB1621
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  #3  
Old 05-31-2023, 3:46 PM
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In the Age of Lawfare it takes $$$$ to strike faulty laws.
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  #4  
Old 05-31-2023, 4:24 PM
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Doesn't settling this one just open them up to more lawsuits? They just might not be liquid enough to fight or maybe their books aren't 100% kosher.
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  #5  
Old 05-31-2023, 5:52 PM
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Maybe they didn?t want their customer list public?
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  #6  
Old 05-31-2023, 6:27 PM
rational_behavior rational_behavior is offline
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Polymer80 is the most visible and probably the largest 80% kit seller. They were singled out by name in various ATF missives. I'm not surprised.

Quote:
Maybe they didn?t want their customer list public?
By what avenue would that even be possible?
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  #7  
Old 05-31-2023, 6:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewN View Post
Doesn't settling this one just open them up to more lawsuits?
Theoretically, no. My quip was tongue in cheek since settling (legally) admits no fault and concedes no facts. It's simply a position of "we're gonna pay to make this go away"

In practice? Probably. Show me the [state] and I'll show you the incentive
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  #8  
Old 05-31-2023, 6:46 PM
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I wonder how much attorney fees were running?
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  #9  
Old 06-01-2023, 5:14 AM
darkwater34 darkwater34 is offline
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What,s next spring manufacturer's sued over making springs that are similar to one's used in firearms. A piece of plastic or aluminum block not a firearm. Welcome to California where one law abiding citizen can go to bed at night and with a stroke of a pen can be a felon before his feet hit the floor the next morning . One somber night the CAL DOJ GOON SQUAD will come to your house kick in the door and haul you and yours out of your bed and do to you whatever they want. Under the guise of gun safety violations. Beware history is repeating it self right before your eyes.
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  #10  
Old 06-01-2023, 8:41 AM
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I wonder...if:
- 80% receivers and other parts are now 'firearms'
- Bruen says: "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in exist- ence at the time of the founding."
- There is an intersection between the category 'bearable arms' and the category 'firearms'

Does the 2A now cover 80% receivers and other parts that are 'firearms'?
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  #11  
Old 06-01-2023, 8:43 AM
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If the gov calls them an "arm", then the 2nd Amendment covers it.
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2023, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwater34 View Post
A piece of plastic or aluminum block not a firearm.
As far as california is concerned, that is incorrect.

During the open comment period for AB 879, this question was asked:

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...tachment-D.pdf
Summarized Comment #15
Quote:
Regarding sections (cc), the sentences "Unfinished receivers may be found in various levels of completion" and "As more finishing work is completed the precursor part gradually becoming a firearm" describe a continuum of the state of being an "unfinished receiver". No definitive point is given at which point a block of aluminum, for example, is legally distinct from an "unfinished receiver". For example, working backwards from completion, at what point is a receiver no longer classified as an "unfinished receiver"? Does a rectangular block of metal with no distinguishing features, which can eventually be tooled into a receiver (colloquially referred to as a "0% receiver"), meet the definition of an "unfinished receiver"?
And the answer was given:
Quote:
The term "unfinished receiver", as defined in the proposed regulation, can be reasonably and logically interpreted to have only one meaning, has a meaning that is generally familiar to those directly affected by the regulation, and is defined in the regulation itself. The commenter's reference to the "colloquial" designation is itself evidence that the term is generally familiar
California is holding the position that "a rectangular block of metal with no distinguishing features" is a firearm
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2023, 1:30 PM
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The legislature wrote the law as vague as possible so it can be applied in any situation the state wishes.

This is no different from when the Soviet Union had laws criminalizing "anti-social activity".

What qualified as anti-social? You're in luck, it's whatever the prosecutor brought you in for!
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  #14  
Old 06-01-2023, 1:59 PM
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Is it a good thing or a bad thing that Sacramento is now reduced to attempting solutions to philosophical problems that are as old as Western civilization itself?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes

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  #15  
Old 06-01-2023, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
If the gov calls them an "arm", then the 2nd Amendment covers it.




#Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
#Let?s go Brandon!
#FJB
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  #16  
Old 06-01-2023, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDoe View Post
How so?

Per Heller:

Quote:
...the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding
The only question is if it's a "bearable arm".

If it is, then it's covered.

If it's not, then the next question to ask is "Is it a precursor part?". For an 80% receiver, it is and is therefore also covered per multiple decisions related to the 1st Amendment.

Grosjean v. American Press Co.
Minneapolis Star Tribune Co. v. Commissioner

While there are current excise taxes on ammo & firearms, they only exist due to the soft enforcement of the 2nd Amendment. Post-Bruen they will fall in time.

Finally, there are a ton of District level rulings (mostly PIs) post-Bruen stating that parts are arms for the purpose of the Bruen THT test.
Usually, the reasoning is that the part in question affects the functionality of an arm and is therefore covered under the test.

Last edited by SpudmanWP; 06-01-2023 at 2:59 PM..
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  #17  
Old 06-01-2023, 3:01 PM
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This is also why every gun co and FFL should periodically (re)incorporate
into another entity.
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Old 06-01-2023, 3:05 PM
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Our tax dollars fund these expensive invasions of Gov into enterprise,..

So how many good jobs and businesses has gov put out of business today?

Our founders would be shocked. Wrong has become right.
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  #19  
Old 06-01-2023, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
California is holding the position that "a rectangular block of metal with no distinguishing features" is a firearm
Quote:
The only question is if it's a "bearable arm".

If it is, then it's covered.
Q-1 ... It is logically and physically impossible for a [rectangular block of metal with no distinguishing features] to actually be a firearm.

Q-2 ... It could be a [bearable arm] and covered by 2A if carried upon the person, for the purpose of SD. Just as a rock, a stick, or a handful of chili powder, could be utilized as a defensive weapon.

Ca claiming it is, is just more asinine legislation. Unsupportable by any finding of FACTS in an unbiased court of law.

https://youtu.be/Z6Dj8tdSC1A

Ca. taxpayers are on the hook for BILLIONS OF DOLLARS every year. Spent by the various leftist anti 2A state actors in support of their various VIRTUE SIGNALING AGENDAS.
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  #20  
Old 06-01-2023, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Since when is a LESS THAN 80% KIT REQUIRED TO BE SERIALIZED AND A BG CHECK [DROS] FOR PURCHASE? Other than application to DOJ for a serial before completion of a self made firearm in Crap-O-fornica?
Since 07-01-2022.

CA passed new laws that went into effect on 07-01-2022.

Starting 07-01-2022, "firearm precursor parts" aka "1%-80% receivers" [PC 16531(a)] are considered firearms under CA laws. [PC 16520(b)]

Starting 07-01-2022, it is illegal to sell a "firearm precursor part" in CA, unless it has been serial numbered by a 07-FFL and it is transferred (DROS/10 day wait) through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27530(a)]

Starting 07-01-2022, the CA AG or any CA DA or any city attorney can sue a manufacturer or vendor for making/importing/transferring "firearm precursor parts" in CA. [PC 18010(d)]





Penal Code 18010
(d)(1) The Attorney General, a district attorney, or a city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the importation into the state or sale or transfer of any firearm precursor part that is unlawfully imported into this state or sold or transferred within this state.
(2) Any firearm precursor parts that are unlawfully imported in this state or unlawfully sold, transferred, or possessed within this state are a nuisance and are subject to confiscation and destruction pursuant to Section 18005.
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Last edited by Quiet; 06-01-2023 at 6:19 PM..
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2023, 7:34 PM
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That would be nice if the new influx of GOA/FPC/SAF members funded suits agains these precursor laws.
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Old 06-01-2023, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Since 07-01-2022.

CA passed new laws that went into effect on 07-01-2022.
OK, that is now. LA City Att. Filed suit a year prior to implementation. So that law is moot in relation to this suit, is it not?

And also does nothing condoning municipal officials lying about the contents of FEDERAL LAWS [GCA-68]. In court filings.


Quote:
In its lawsuit, the city alleged that Polymer80 violated federal Gun Control Act requirements and California state gun laws by not conducting mandatory background checks on the people purchasing its products.
Mike Feuer, is a lying bastard, and criminal that should have been disbarred and jailed for his actions against Mr Wayne Wright back in IIRC 2007. When he knowingly and intentionally, got an ex-parte destruction order from an independent judge who was kept in the dark concerning a previous court order. Requiring LAPD to return Mr Wrights firearms.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2023, 3:25 PM
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Polymer80 made a business decision to cut losses and bail rather than fight it for the next 10 years in court. Hard to argue with that as disappointing as it is.
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Old 06-02-2023, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Since 07-01-2022.

CA passed new laws that went into effect on 07-01-2022.

Starting 07-01-2022, "firearm precursor parts" aka "1%-80% receivers" [PC 16531(a)] are considered firearms under CA laws. [PC 16520(b)]

Starting 07-01-2022, it is illegal to sell a "firearm precursor part" in CA, unless it has been serial numbered by a 07-FFL and it is transferred (DROS/10 day wait) through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27530(a)]

Starting 07-01-2022, the CA AG or any CA DA or any city attorney can sue a manufacturer or vendor for making/importing/transferring "firearm precursor parts" in CA. [PC 18010(d)]





Penal Code 18010
(d)(1) The Attorney General, a district attorney, or a city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the importation into the state or sale or transfer of any firearm precursor part that is unlawfully imported into this state or sold or transferred within this state.
(2) Any firearm precursor parts that are unlawfully imported in this state or unlawfully sold, transferred, or possessed within this state are a nuisance and are subject to confiscation and destruction pursuant to Section 18005.
I didn't even realize that it had gone through. But they propose so many new gun control laws and pass enough that I can't keep track anymore.
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Old 06-03-2023, 7:15 AM
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So this was a settlement. Lawyer decision that $5 million in fines is less of a cost than the fees of a lawsuit in CA with a questionable outcome. Understood...doesn't make it right.

But did they admit any guilt? If not all that will happen is companies will stop doing business in CA until these laws are overturned. It doest set a legal precedent that these laws are constitutional. They are definitely not just. CA is broken and every year it gets worse and worse
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2023, 8:01 AM
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Sounds like the Sandy Hook settlement reasoning.
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Old 06-04-2023, 2:34 AM
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Well I suppose if a person were to take that square block of aluminum or plastic and through at the person and caused a lethal injury.......I know of someone charged with use of a deadly weapon for throwing a frozen corn dog at someone. But to go after somone for possession of such is as funny as mag wheels on a tractor.
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