CR FFL 03 ATF Inspection, After Action Report Thread

[paul0660]

My guess is that having a copy of the Acknowledgement would avoid being inspected more than once in a year, if their records get haywire.

[AraiGuma]

Only if they have a good record keeping skill and system. So... where did the half of Federal bailout money go?

Originally Posted by paul0660

Unfortunately, your C&R firearms are now, for all intents, registered.

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

After the inspection, both I and the inspector signed to a paper "Acknowledgement of Federal Firearms Regulations" as proof of completion. And yes, she took a log of my currently possessed firearms (make, model, serial number, type) in to her computer.

Just out of curiosity, did she take down any information on firearms signed out of your log (ones you sold, traded, etc.)? Thanks.

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by paul0660

My guess is that having a copy of the Acknowledgement would avoid being inspected more than once in a year, if their records get haywire.

You could have the agent sign and date your bound book. Or simply grab a business card and note all details of the inspection. { Or you could record the inspection on audio/video. }

Signing an "acknowledgement" sounds like the collector is being put on the legal spot, so to speak.

-- Michael

[AraiGuma]

No. Only the one I currently have.

Originally Posted by Jack Straw from Wichita

Just out of curiosity, did she take down any information on firearms signed out of your log (ones you sold, traded, etc.)? Thanks.

Well, "licensed" collector is subject to inspection and therefore, we are on the legal spot, so to speak..

Originally Posted by elSquid

Signing an "acknowledgement" sounds like the collector is being put on the legal spot, so to speak.

-- Michael

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

Well, "licensed" collector is subject to inspection and therefore, we are on the legal spot, so to speak..

While I agree that collectors need to comply with the law, I would not be inclined to go beyond that; especially when it involves a signature on a legal document.

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat, but to state the obvious: if the document doesn't help you in any way, then it can only hurt you. So why sign it if you don't have to?

Anyways ->



-- Michael

[hoffmang]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

If you take that stance, you should not apply for C&R FFL at first place.

Where on the C&R application does it say:

"I hereby waive my Fourth Amendment rights."

I have a C&R. No agent of the Federal Government will come past my front door without a warrant.

I'll happily load up and visit them at the appropriate time and we'll have a very pleasant and co-operative interaction.

If you think I'm incorrect you need to call any firearms lawyer in this state and ask.

-Gene

[dustoff31]

These C&R licensee inspections seem to be rather peculiar to CA. I can't think of anyone I know in AZ that has ever been inspected.

Anyone have an opinion on this?

[ke6guj]

I've seen on ARFCOM and THR.US, multiple people from other states than CA getting C&R inspections lately. Its not CA-only.

[Nodda Duma]

Originally Posted by dustoff31

These C&R licensee inspections seem to be rather peculiar to CA. I can't think of anyone I know in AZ that has ever been inspected.

Anyone have an opinion on this?

C&R inspections come straight out of BATFE regulations for C&R licenses. It is in no way a California thing. New York is the only state that I know of which has something above and beyond. That state requires an ATF visit prior to approving license.

-Jason

[AraiGuma]

Tha't fine with me. It's your business, not mine.

Originally Posted by hoffmang

I have a C&R. No agent of the Federal Government will come past my front door without a warrant.

I'll happily load up and visit them at the appropriate time and we'll have a very pleasant and co-operative interaction.

By doing so, who gains what? I reported what I went through as information to other members, not to hear what you WILL do.

Originally Posted by hoffmang

If you think I'm incorrect you need to call any firearms lawyer in this state and ask.
-Gene

[hoffmang]

AriaGuma,

I'm not some crazy tinfoiler hatter. What I'm trying to explain for you and for everyone else is that the ATF misled you from the outset.

Do you feel more trusting or less trusting that the ATF agent deliberately misled you?

So once the ATF agent intentionally misled you that you couldn't take your C&R firearms to the nearest ATF office, do you think he or she might be willing to be adverse to you on something else when he or she was inside your house?

I'm being extremely serious here. You do not want to hear the disgusting stories I get to hear of various law enforcement agencies lieing to innocent gun owners to get access to areas no magistrate would ever allow. I can think of one case already that CGF is going to have to defend where a police agency lied their way into some young man's home. They have since charged him with something that isn't a crime.

Why would you expose yourself to such trouble and then tell everyone else who reads this site that "It's ok, waive your 4th amendment rights even if you're otherwise federally licensed as a collector."

PM me with your phone number and I'll have one of the pre-eminent firearms lawyers in the state call you and explain to you that you should not have the inspection in your home.

-Gene

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

After everything is done, I asked her about the inspection at their office. She said that law allows it and technically it is possible. However, unless you are in the situation to posses only a few (or no at all) guns, it is not ideal and will not be approved. They don't want you to come in to Federal building with a lot of guns... and neither do I.

Gene is just trying to correct this little bit of misinformation that she gave you.

If the local BATFE inspector feels that me bringing 100 rifles and 10 handguns into the Federal building "is not ideal" and they decide that my request to bring the guns into the Federal building "will not be approved", then they are SOL. The inspection will not be happening. BATFE simply does not have the power to compel a home inspection without a warrant from a judge. They have no other option. They must follow the law.

Choosing to allow them into your home is fine. Just don't let them lie to you by saying it is their choice.

[jjperl]

So what if I haven't purchased any thing with my C&R yet and they want to inspect? Should I just present an empty book?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by jjperl

So what if I haven't purchased any thing with my C&R yet and they want to inspect? Should I just present an empty book?

Yes. That's all you can do.

[dustoff31]

Originally Posted by Nodda Duma

C&R inspections come straight out of BATFE regulations for C&R licenses. It is in no way a California thing. New York is the only state that I know of which has something above and beyond. That state requires an ATF visit prior to approving license.

-Jason

I understand that C&R holders may be inspected. I was just saying that I don't know of any in my circles in AZ, that have been.

[Nodda Duma]

Originally Posted by dustoff31

I understand that C&R holders may be inspected. I was just saying that I don't know of any in my circles in AZ, that have been.

California license holders seem to have been getting an unusual number of inspection requests lately. From what I've read on the C&R forum here over the past few months, I kind of wonder if the female ATF agent going around is a new agent that for some reason or other has decided to focus effort on C&R license holders. I don't think she's pro-gun, and is perhaps trying to stir up trouble that doesn't exist? This is all pure speculation, of course.

I haven't been contacted by anybody wrt my license and have had it for a couple of years now, but I might not be under her jurisdiction here on the eastern side of the Sierras (or I haven't been contacted yet).

-Jason

[grammaton76]

So far, I haven't ever been contacted for inspection. I'm a little over 7mo from needing to renew, if I recall.

[BillCA]

Gene,

While it's not ever a good idea to let LE personnel into your home, it should be your decision and at a time when you can be prepared for it.

One question that does arise is, if the collection is substantial and cannot be transported all at one time (or verified in one day) who's choice is it to spread the inspection out over serveral days?

If I ever get to the point of having an 03-FFL I'll be in a house where I can have a pair of dobermans sit and watch from the doorway.

[hoffmang]

ATF has to make arrangements with you. Simply the fact that it's hard doesn't make it right or a good idea for ATF to come to you.

Post on Calguns and ask for volunteers to help transport your collection.

Would everyone here be just as gun ho to allow an IRS inspector into their home? If not, why not?

-Gene

[grammaton76]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

Would everyone here be just as gun ho to allow an IRS inspector into their home? If not, why not?

I wouldn't. They may notice my roomie's tendency not to clean up his drink containers, and accuse me of running an illegal alcohol fermentation place based upon transformations which might have occurred to stuff left out for far too long...

[paul0660]

I think I wouldn't have a problem with them coming to my house, now that I have thought about it. I WOULD have a problem with them leaving with a list of my guns, and I would find out exactly where that is supposedly required. I am betting that the inspector in question did anything she wanted.

[SJgunguy24]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

AriaGuma,

I'm not some crazy tinfoiler hatter. What I'm trying to explain for you and for everyone else is that the ATF misled you from the outset.

Do you feel more trusting or less trusting that the ATF agent deliberately misled you?

So once the ATF agent intentionally misled you that you couldn't take your C&R firearms to the nearest ATF office, do you think he or she might be willing to be adverse to you on something else when he or she was inside your house?

I'm being extremely serious here. You do not want to hear the disgusting stories I get to hear of various law enforcement agencies lieing to innocent gun owners to get access to areas no magistrate would ever allow. I can think of one case already that CGF is going to have to defend where a police agency lied their way into some young man's home. They have since charged him with something that isn't a crime.

Why would you expose yourself to such trouble and then tell everyone else who reads this site that "It's ok, waive your 4th amendment rights even if you're otherwise federally licensed as a collector."

PM me with your phone number and I'll have one of the pre-eminent firearms lawyers in the state call you and explain to you that you should not have the inspection in your home.

-Gene

I know the guy hoffmang is talking about. Don't ever let L.E.O.'s in your home. They don't care about what happens to you and they WILL LIE AND INTIMIDATE YOU.

[vf111]

Originally Posted by paul0660

I think I wouldn't have a problem with them coming to my house, now that I have thought about it. I WOULD have a problem with them leaving with a list of my guns, and I would find out exactly where that is supposedly required. I am betting that the inspector in question did anything she wanted.

Anyone have an idea here? I wasn't aware they can walk off w/ a record of my C&R stuff.

[NRAhighpowershooter]

they probably can do it even if you vist them for your bound book inspection.....

[paul0660]

Sure, they can do it, but do they have the right to? I would want to see the reg that requires it, and if it does not exist, fuggetabout it. Remember, once your 03 lapses, you can destroy your C and R records, and the guns are as they should be, unregistered, and yours. I am not one of those that think a dump truck is going to show up and confiscate my guns someday, but I do believe that not EVERYTHING has to be known by the powers that be.

[Fate]

Originally Posted by vf111

Anyone have an idea here? I wasn't aware they can walk off w/ a record of my C&R stuff.

You betcha they can and DO!

[quiet-wyatt]

Hello,

I sent my C&R app in a few weeks ago and had a question...

Can someone point me to where I can find the Federal code about C&R licenses, inspections, etc...

I'm making a binder to keep the relevant California code in, and wanted to add the Federal. That way, if there's a question about something, I can just point to the actual code...

Thanks!
quiet-wyatt

[Dirtbiker]

Around the same time your license comes you will get about 20 pounds of papers and books. It will be in there.

[ripbait]

I talked to a dealer at a gun show a few weeks ago,and he said if they show up and your not home they will come back and kick in your door and open your safe? And i should get rid of my COE cert so they cant do this,is this true or just BS?

[tophatjones]

Originally Posted by ripbait

I talked to a dealer at a gun show a few weeks ago,and he said if they show up and your not home they will come back and kick in your door and open your safe? And i should get rid of my COE cert so they cant do this,is this true or just BS?

BS. You can choose to have the inspection either at your home or at the nearest BATF office.

[Fate]

Originally Posted by ripbait

I talked to a dealer at a gun show a few weeks ago,and he said if they show up and your not home they will come back and kick in your door and open your safe?

LOL at the FUD.

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by ripbait

I talked to a dealer at a gun show a few weeks ago,and he said if they show up and your not home they will come back and kick in your door and open your safe? And i should get rid of my COE cert so they cant do this,is this true or just BS?

Now that's comedy.

[Fate]

You know...on second thought, I heard (on teh 1nt3rn37) that the same thing happens when you remove the warning tags from the bottom of your sofa.

[Nodda Duma]

With all these stories about unusual experiences with local ATF agents floating around, I think I'm going to contact the ATF and ask what's up.

So far I've read about

ATF agent "just showing up" for an inspection
ATF agent recording serial numbers of the rifles
ATF agent visiting for a pre-issuance interview

These are what I would consider to be unusual practice in regards to ATF policy towards C&R license holders / applicants, if not outright out-of-line.

Is it just me, or do all these occurances seem to have started relatively recently? My hypothesis is that this is a new agent that is not as familiar with ATF regs / policys towards FFL 03's as we would like. I'm going to find out what's going on and hope I don't get raided for asking.

ATF agents (or any government agent) volunteering forth unnecessary bureaucratic effort should raise red flags.

-Jason

[StrangeBrew]

When your C&R lapses but you plan on renewing it, can you still destroy the records from your previous C&R purchases?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by StrangeBrew

When your C&R lapses but you plan on renewing it, can you still destroy the records from your previous C&R purchases?

If you let the C&R actually lapse, you aren't required to maintain the bound book anymore, and can dispose of it. You are not required to send it into ATF like other FFLs are. If you then submit a new app, you can start a new book. IIRC, you are issued a new lic# at that point.

But, if you renew your C&R, your existing license is extended, with the same lic#, and you are required to maintain the book from when the license was first issued.

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

If you let the C&R actually lapse, you aren't required to maintain the bound book anymore, and can dispose of it. You are not required to send it into ATF like other FFLs are. If you then submit a new app, you can start a new book. IIRC, you are issued a new lic# at that point.

But, if you renew your C&R, your existing license is extended, with the same lic#, and you are required to maintain the book from when the license was first issued.

When you renew, your license number will stay the same except for the expiration code. Look at your license number and you will see that the fifth grouping contains a number and letter. This indicates when the license expires. For instance, my last license had a code of 8D which meant it expired 1 April 2008. My new license has 1D which means it expires 1 April 2011.

[SVT-40]

BATFE C&R letter.
Good info from BATFE regarding rules and responsibilities on behalf of both the BATFE and collectors.

[sactoshooter]

I received a call yesterday by a young lady who was from the ATF .. She asked if she could come over and inspect my collection for the ffl class 03 renewal. I said it wouldnt be a problem .. then i hung up the phone nervous as hell ...wondering if i did something wrong. I remember reading it was a rare occurance for an ATF agent to actually do an inspection. Luckily i feel everything is in order. I have only purchased 7 firearms while licensed. 5 handguns and 2 rifles. I will report how it turns out.


PS luckily you guys started this thread because it appeased some of my nervousness ...