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Optics, Mounts, Rails and Sights If it aims your firearm, post about it here.

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  #1  
Old 07-26-2017, 3:40 PM
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Default Scope bubble levels and inclinometers....worth it or waste of money?

Hi, as you've likely gleamed already, getting set to learn longer range (tactical?) shooting. 300-1000 yards or so with a .308 Winchester bolt action rifle. One has an American Defense scope mount (i unit fixed), the other rifle has Tikka rings over an open port so i have no extra rail on to which i can attach things to.

Do you advocate using a scope mounted bubble level or an inclinometer?

If so, any preferences to specific makes and model...i do need to stay respectful of cost but don't want garbage.

Thank you as always
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2017, 3:56 PM
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:33 AM
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I don't know the answer to your question, BUT.

I don't use one on my hunting rifle, I occasionally target shoot, 400, 700 yards, man sized steels. I have no trouble walking them in, but I'm not shooting for groups or score. When I can take a few shots out there and hear the ding a couple times, I'm happy there. Is the lack of a level hurting me? Dunno.

I use one on my target rifle. Shooting father than 700 yards. I use the bubble level. Is the use of the bubble level on this rifle helping me connect more frequently than if it were off? Dunno. No data to say otherwise.

Up to you. I'm not putting a level on my hunting rifle even if I go shoot SLOSA 700 yards tomorrow. I'm not taking the level off my target rifle even if you showed me data showing it was useless.

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Old 08-01-2017, 12:08 PM
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They don't cost that much.
And frankly terrain can mess with your sense of up and down when peering through a scope in the heat and sweat pouring into your eyes.
It's one way to be sure it's not something you're doing wrong, I get set up and glance at the bubble and get surprised how far off I can be as the tripod digs into the ground through my mat with consecutive shots.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:39 PM
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The farther you shoot, the more it helps. The more height over bore you have, the more it helps. If you're doing LR stuff go ahead and put one on and make sure it's on correctly. Once it is, it can only help your results.
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Old 08-03-2017, 11:35 PM
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I think bubble levels are good, but the inclinometer are not needed unless you are shooting at extreme angles.
I have some good ones, and a bad one, spend the money on a good one, the cheapo ones will mess with you.
I like the ones that fold and stick out of the side, not the top of the scope mounted ones. The side mounted ones can seen with your left eye or peripheral vision, without moving your head. The top mounted ones you need to move your head off the stock to see, and that IMO defeats the purpose.
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Old 08-04-2017, 7:35 AM
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If you use wind holdovers in your reticle, get a level.

Inclinometer.....my range finder already handles that.

On my long-range hunting rifles, I have the Leupold wind-plex reticles and use bubble levels. I have put them to use hunting antelope several times.
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Old 08-28-2021, 7:44 AM
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Speaking of bubble levels…

Does anyone know what this one might be? It was on attached to the Leupold scope on an FBI sniper rifle I played with last weekend. No markings and Google is of no help.

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  #9  
Old 08-28-2021, 8:02 AM
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for most hunting it is just another distraction play toy
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Old 08-28-2021, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtenenhaus View Post
Hi, as you've likely gleamed already, getting set to learn longer range (tactical?) shooting. 300-1000 yards or so with a .308 Winchester bolt action rifle. One has an American Defense scope mount (i unit fixed), the other rifle has Tikka rings over an open port so i have no extra rail on to which i can attach things to.

Do you advocate using a scope mounted bubble level or an inclinometer?

If so, any preferences to specific makes and model...i do need to stay respectful of cost but don't want garbage.

Thank you as always
rifle or scope cant actually has very little impact unless it is extreme (or you're shooting extremely far out), and you wouldn't need a bubble to know.
if the mount you like has one, great, but i wouldn't pay extra.

this is a long running argument, lol.

Last edited by theLBC; 08-28-2021 at 8:04 AM..
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  #11  
Old 08-28-2021, 8:12 AM
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For long range a bubble is required.

If you are canted 5% or 10% then you are losing 5-10% of your elevation dope.

You are then sending that bullet off to the right or left by that amount.


Some will hit all around a target at 1k and give up out of frustration.

How much drop does a 308 have at 1k?
Black Hills 175 is a great match load and probably gives you 2600 at the muzzle.

So if you have 400 inches of drop- being canted 10% means you now are only getting 360" of you dope and you would be low 40".

If you had a 1moa target - 10", then 40" is a long way off.
If you convert that 40" to windage- again a long way off.



If you only shoot off of a heavy bench that is 100% level - not really an issue as you will be consistent and can walk them in.

If you are not consistent and have a 20"-60" variation at 1k based upon cant- it's frustrating
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Last edited by hermosabeach; 08-28-2021 at 8:23 AM..
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  #12  
Old 08-28-2021, 11:51 AM
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....appreciate the help. this was an older posting so it's kind of neat that people found and addressed it.

i did ultimately transition to using a bubble level.

thank you
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  #13  
Old 08-28-2021, 3:50 PM
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When i see someone is not using a level i assume they don't know what they are doing because if your not using a level your fooling yourself....and i see it allot.
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Old 08-28-2021, 3:57 PM
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There are bubble levels and inclimometor apps on ur phone for free
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Old 08-28-2021, 8:09 PM
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That's odd. I've been shooting long distance for more than 20 years. I've never had trouble hitting targets without ever using a bubble level. And no, I don't just shoot off of a bench. Must be pure luck.
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Old 08-28-2021, 8:51 PM
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That's odd. I've been shooting long distance for more than 20 years. I've never had trouble hitting targets without ever using a bubble level. And no, I don't just shoot off of a bench. Must be pure luck.
Over time you become consistent.

If you are shooting PRS and keep changing positions, it's a cheap way to validate that you are level.


I watch guys in shooting jackets shoot with irons at 600 and they are canted.

They are canted the same each time, log their shots and know their dope.


Some people claim their bullets hit at the same POint of Impact at 1,000 regardless of them shooting east, west, north and south. The direction of the **** does not impact their hits.


Others say the direction does have an effect on impact.
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Old 08-29-2021, 6:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
If you are shooting PRS and keep changing positions, it's a cheap way to validate that you are level.


I watch guys in shooting jackets shoot with irons at 600 and they are canted.
They are canted the same each time, log their shots and know their dope.
.
I think you bring up a good point. Some of us long time Palma shooters have developed the ability to use our eye and inner ear to recognize what is plumb and level when in position. The PRS experienced shooter does the same.

A level for the novice shooter is A tool to help develop that skill.
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Old 08-29-2021, 6:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Over time you become consistent.

If you are shooting PRS and keep changing positions, it's a cheap way to validate that you are level.


I watch guys in shooting jackets shoot with irons at 600 and they are canted.

They are canted the same each time, log their shots and know their dope.


Some people claim their bullets hit at the same POint of Impact at 1,000 regardless of them shooting east, west, north and south. The direction of the **** does not impact their hits.


Others say the direction does have an effect on impact.
I think that's part of the problem. Some shooters are using a level to fix a symptom instead of actually addressing the cause of the symptom. I know when I've blown a shot and usually the exact reason why. It has never been due to being canted too much.
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Old 08-29-2021, 7:17 AM
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I am not an expert. However, I can hit a bullseye at 1,000 yards. I think that making sure the scope crosshairs are properly indexed to the rifle is the most important thing. Once the scope is indexed to the rifle cant is detected by referencing the horizontal crosshair with the horizon.
In my experience, a horizon reference is usually available when shooting long range. I think a bubble is ergonomically impractical and adds very little value in eliminating cant.
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Old 08-29-2021, 10:07 AM
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I rely on my rangefinder for uphill/downhill compensation. Vortex makes a bubble level that attaches to the scope; not too much and works well. There are also a few rails that have a bubble level built into the rear. Personally, I like to glance at the bubble level with my left eye while keeping the target in my scope with my right eye.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:10 PM
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I have Vortex on my Savage 12's in .223 and .260 Rem. Inexpensive and they work.

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Old 08-29-2021, 12:13 PM
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Depends on the type of shooting you do. If you are a weekend warrior prone shooter and "walking it in" on a 4moa target is just fine for you, you'll get by just fine without one.

If you are a PRS/NRL match shooter, its cheap insurance. Other than saving a couple bucks on the level itself, theres really no benefit to NOT running one. Zero upside. Even top level shooters that consistently perform at the highest level run one (some run 2). I have shot long enough that I dont need to check the level every single shot, but there are times where it does help. I have also shot enough to know what I can get away with depending on target size and distance. On a large target go-fast stage, I know I can probably afford to have a little bit of cant and be fine. On a really small target at longer distance, best believe I'm checking my level.

If you are going to run one, make sure you put it on correctly.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:20 PM
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[QUOTE=Meety Peety;26108924

If you are going to run one, make sure you put it on correctly.[/QUOTE]

I was told, mount it where your support eye can see it without changing firing position.

What is the right way / location to mount them?
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Old 08-29-2021, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
I was told, mount it where your support eye can see it without changing firing position.

What is the right way / location to mount them?
This is going to depend on how your scope is mounted to your rifle. If it's perfectly squared to your rifle's vertical and horizontal alignment, it doesn't matter. However, if your rifle is set up to fit you properly with some cant, then you should orient your reticle (and thus your scope) to be level to the fall of gravity. If you do the latter, the level needs to align with your scope and not the rifle.
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Old 08-29-2021, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
I was told, mount it where your support eye can see it without changing firing position.

What is the right way / location to mount them?
Yes, position wise that is correct. You shouldn't have to do anything to your position to see it. Some guys run two levels, one on each side, so that they can achieve this result shooting weak side as well.

As far as rifle setup and mounting the level, your reticle should always be aligned to gravity. The level should be tube mounted, as that gives you the ability to make adjustments to the level relative to your rifle setup.

Your rifle should be set up in a way that is comfortable and repeatable every single time you mount the gun. If there is a little bit of cant in the rifle/chassis, that is okay. But you then need to make sure that when the rifle is in that comfortable/repeatable position, your reticle is aligned to gravity, NOT to the canted rifle. If you set everything up on a bench, level to itself, one of two things is likely (not guaranteed) to happen: When you mount the gun, your level will read "level" but you will fight the gun trying to maintain it and stay comfortable, OR you will mount the gun in a way that feels comfortable, regardless of what the level says and therefore inducing cant on the reticle. Both will show inconsistency down range.

If your rifle is setup correctly, you should be able to mount the gun with your eyes closed in a way that feels comfortable, open your eyes and your level should be right on. If its not, something needs to change in your rifle setup. For that matter, you should be able to completely break position and re-mount the gun with the same result over and over. Dot drills are great for validating this and building muscle memory.

If you are able to mount the gun comfortably and repeatably with everything leveled up on a bench, thats great. But I think a lot of people just *think* they are doing this and wonder why they see subtle inconsistencies down range.

I stand behind guys all the time watching them shoot a stage and they have a level on the scope, its clearly showing off-level, and they are breaking shots any way. Probably not even remembering to check the level, but also a good indication that their rifle is not set up properly. Off the clock its easy to make sure everything is perfect, but on the clock people have a tendency to skip steps, which is why it is important to remove the "step" of making sure your reticle is level - it should already be done when you mount the gun.
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Old 08-31-2021, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meety Peety View Post
Yes, position wise that is correct. You shouldn't have to do anything to your position to see it. Some guys run two levels, one on each side, so that they can achieve this result shooting weak side as well.

As far as rifle setup and mounting the level, your reticle should always be aligned to gravity. The level should be tube mounted, as that gives you the ability to make adjustments to the level relative to your rifle setup.

Your rifle should be set up in a way that is comfortable and repeatable every single time you mount the gun. If there is a little bit of cant in the rifle/chassis, that is okay. But you then need to make sure that when the rifle is in that comfortable/repeatable position, your reticle is aligned to gravity, NOT to the canted rifle. If you set everything up on a bench, level to itself, one of two things is likely (not guaranteed) to happen: When you mount the gun, your level will read "level" but you will fight the gun trying to maintain it and stay comfortable, OR you will mount the gun in a way that feels comfortable, regardless of what the level says and therefore inducing cant on the reticle. Both will show inconsistency down range.

If your rifle is setup correctly, you should be able to mount the gun with your eyes closed in a way that feels comfortable, open your eyes and your level should be right on. If its not, something needs to change in your rifle setup. For that matter, you should be able to completely break position and re-mount the gun with the same result over and over. Dot drills are great for validating this and building muscle memory.

If you are able to mount the gun comfortably and repeatably with everything leveled up on a bench, thats great. But I think a lot of people just *think* they are doing this and wonder why they see subtle inconsistencies down range.

I stand behind guys all the time watching them shoot a stage and they have a level on the scope, its clearly showing off-level, and they are breaking shots any way. Probably not even remembering to check the level, but also a good indication that their rifle is not set up properly. Off the clock its easy to make sure everything is perfect, but on the clock people have a tendency to skip steps, which is why it is important to remove the "step" of making sure your reticle is level - it should already be done when you mount the gun.
This right here. Our minds are pretty incredible in figuring out if something is level, but it takes practice and focus. I know there are folks that think bubble levels aren’t useful but I find them very useful.

When I’m in a rush, is nice to be able to quickly see if my scope is level using my support side eye. This is especially helpful when there is no horizon to compare to. What if you’re in non standard positions. Sometimes it can be very useful.

Having said that, I agree with Meety. Correctly setup rifle should naturally get into position and level. Sometimes that means your scope is installed “crooked” but when the rifle comes to ready, it’s level.
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:12 AM
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If you are shooting at a range, you can probably get away with not have a level. If you go to a match where you are in an awkward position and don't have anything plumb or level to use as a reference, that level comes in handy.
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:25 AM
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I have a level built in to my Hawkins hybrid rings. I have to remove my eye from the objective viewing position to see it, but I’ve double checked it a few times. I think when you start shooting over 300-yards it might be of help to have a level.

My rifle is purely a hunting rig and I will have a level on my next build.
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:42 AM
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About half way through he demonstrates some not level shots...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BCCqlZMhEw
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Old 09-04-2021, 2:18 PM
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smart phone apps for Level (and Compass) seem very accurate and give small fractions of degrees so that is what I'd use to gauge angle in long distance shot, not that I'm a long distance or even good shooter.

I was thinking about using Smart Phone level feature in conjunction with rifle scope and maybe a 4ft level and CAD program to make DIY "Total Station" survey setup.....mostly to double check the big fancy TS because I don't know how they do it but the guy doing that can make a 'stupid mistake' and mark important stuff 1ft or 10ft off.

Not sure if compass is Magnetic North or Truth North from GPS, I'm guessing TN.
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Old 09-06-2021, 7:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronlglock View Post
Speaking of bubble levels…

Does anyone know what this one might be? It was on attached to the Leupold scope on an FBI sniper rifle I played with last weekend. No markings and Google is of no help.

Nightforce makes one like shown in the picture.
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