Should American police department be issued foreign guns?

[masameet]

This might be a rumor. But I've heard from two separate local LEOs in recent months that the State of California will most likely replace the S&W 4006 for both state parks and highway patrol LEOs with, possibly, a Glock.

[itchy finger]

It's a performance issue. Harley can not complete with the speed or agility of BMW or Honda. We tested them and Harley had to do sooooooo many mods just to reach 100 mph.

[itchy finger]

I would love to know where you heard that. The current 4006 TSW is just the old 4006 reinvented. My first 4006 never worked, got replaced by a retired 4006, which did not work. Have not had a problem with the TSW, yet, but I am waiting for that. I know University police and State Parks both carry Glocks already, we still have S&W. I wish we would change or at least have the choice to carry something else. I'm all for buying American, but if the product they produce doesn't meet the challenge, then they need to step it up.

[bluestaterebel]

Originally Posted by itchy finger

I would love to know where you heard that. The current 4006 TSW is just the old 4006 reinvented. My first 4006 never worked, got replaced by a retired 4006, which did not work. Have not had a problem with the TSW, yet, but I am waiting for that. I know University police and State Parks both carry Glocks already, we still have S&W. I wish we would change or at least have the choice to carry something else. I'm all for buying American, but if the product they produce doesn't meet the challenge, then they need to step it up.

so if you had your choice of any American handgun, which one would it be?

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by oddjob

Isn't S&W owned by a British plumbing company or was it sold?

It was owned by the British, but was bought back by the Americans.

When it was owned by the British, S&W made deals with the Clinton Administration to support gun control laws in order to get preference in LE/Gov handgun contracts.
The internal lock on the S&W revolvers was another brain child of the British owners.

The American owners brought about the M&P line of handguns and rifles.

[masameet]

Originally Posted by itchy finger

I would love to know where you heard that. The current 4006 TSW is just the old 4006 reinvented. My first 4006 never worked, got replaced by a retired 4006, which did not work. Have not had a problem with the TSW, yet, but I am waiting for that. I know University police and State Parks both carry Glocks already, we still have S&W. I wish we would change or at least have the choice to carry something else. I'm all for buying American, but if the product they produce doesn't meet the challenge, then they need to step it up.

By two State Parks LEOs, both of whom said they were carrying the S&W 4006.

Had to ask about their service pistols, because last December, when I rode my motorcycle up a local mountain and got to about a mile south of the observatory, a State Parks cop (I'm guessing that was what he was, as his uniform was dark green) yelled at me and pointed back down the way I'd come. Apparently the snow atop the mountain made going all the way up unsafe. In turning around I noticed his handgun looked all black polymer. Don't know much about Glocks but I figured he was carrying one. So when I had a chance to talk to the other two State Park cops, I asked. One said: We're going to Glocks; and the second confirmed the rumor. Have to admit that I forgot to ask them about that Glock-carrying State Parks LEO. lol

I've not viewed the S&W 4006 in person but I've seen it online. And I thought it was a beaut. So much in fact that for a while I flirted with the idea of getting one. But then I read online about how other shooters encountered problems with it and figured I'd try something else, like maybe a Sig. lol Anyway one of the two State Parks cops said if I was interested in the S&W 4006, to wait until later this year or early next year, when the market will probably be flooded with them. Of course I dunno and as I wrote previously, the flooding the market thingee is probably a rumor too.

[bluestaterebel]

If i were the Chief, i would have my firearms experts test several U.S. made guns, pick the best one and issue those.

I would then give the officers authorization to carry what ever they like so long as they privately purcahse them and qualify with them.

i guess i am still of the mindset, that American Goverment agencies, local, state, or federal should buy American.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

i guess i am still of the mindset, that American Goverment agencies, local, state, or federal should buy American.

This was the mindset in the USA (LE/Gov/Mil) up until the late-80s/early-90s.
Then the mindset changed to whatever is best no matter where it's made.

US Military still insists that standard issue stuff is made in the USA.
That's why...
... Beretta makes the M-9 & M-9A1 in Maryland.
... FN makes the M-16, M-240, M-249, Mk 16 Mod 0 and Mk 17 Mod 0 in South Carolina.

[cousinkix1953]

Originally Posted by nobody33

The Ford cars we drive are made in Canada...

The Sig guns we are issued were made in the USA...


It's not that cut and dry anymore. Our police motorcycles haven't ever been American brands.

So are those Beretta M-9s. Opening a factory in Maryland was part of the deal, when the Italians started selling pistols to the Pentagon in 1985...

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

I mean you dont see Americn police departments using foreign made cars right? Usually Crown Vics, Dodge Chargers, Chevy Impalas.

Have you seen the CHP's motorcycles recently?

And a couple of years ago, I was pulled over on I-5 outside of Sacramento by a CHP officer driving a Volvo.

[tyrist]

Well.....some departments went to the an American built motorcycle....the harley davidson and it has turned out to be a big mistakes because they are so costly to maintain. The BMW bike is the best but BMW wants to lease the bikes and do the maintenance themselves.

[oddjob]

I also remember my agency handing out Colt Officers Model in 1987 to plain clothes people. They were so bad that Colt sent an armorer to the range. He had a table set up and he spent all day fixing guns....and I mean all day. Bottom line was the liability was so bad our agency went to 9mm Glocks later (.40 S&W didn't exist then). I have talked to the armorers at CHP and more than a few have told me they prefer the Sig system for a general issue sidearm, but the upper management had different thoughts.

I carried a personally owned Colt Gold Cup then switched to a Richard Heine PDP model 1911 Springfield Armory . It has never malfunctioned. I still have it. I got this gun in 1988. I now carry a Colt Commander (alloy frame) for plain clothes/undercover and a S.A. TRP (I know, but mine works like a champ) for raids and uniformed functions.

I have driven numerous vehicles in my 30 yrs as a cop. My current issue Honda Accord is the best car yet in my opinion.

Bottom line is use the best you can buy for the money. The thought of "buy American" is not completely practical now.

[dwa]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

good point but are all american made handguns inferior? M&Ps, XDs, 1911s?

no but one should buy an inferior American gun over a superior foreign gun or the reverse.

[bluestaterebel]

Originally Posted by oddjob

I have driven numerous vehicles in my 30 yrs as a cop. My current issue Honda Accord is the best car yet in my opinion.

Honda Accord? not for patrol right? Undercover work?

[JDay]

Originally Posted by nobody33

nope.

Colt is one.

[JDay]

Originally Posted by stix213

Since lives are on the line - not just the LEO, I think LEOs shouldn't be restricted to US made arms.

Hopefully lack of sales to US manufacturers will drive them to improve their firearms so that they will be purchased based on being the best instead of simply being made in the same country.

The problem with that thinking though is this. Less sales mean less profits which in turn leads to cutting corners in the manufacturing process to save money which it turn leads to lower quality.

[yzErnie]

At the risk of sounding rude, I don't concern myself with uneducated opinions of what I carry as my duty weapon. After 31+ years in this business I know what is the best and that is what I use.

If I, or any of us, needed to protect someone or their loved ones from immediate serious injury or death and it involved the application of lethal force, wouldn't thay want me (us) to have the best firearm(s) available? Currently (and sadly) the US manufactured firearms do not rate at the top.

[bluestaterebel]

Originally Posted by yzernie

Are you serious? At the risk of sounding rude, I don't concern myself with uneducated opinions of what I carry as my duty weapon. After 31+ years in this business I know what is the best and that is what I use.


If I, or any of us, needed to protect you or your loved ones from immediate serious injury or death and it involved the application of lethal force, wouldn't you want me (us) to have the best firearm(s) available? Currently (and sadly) the US manufactured firearms do not rate at the top.

Just who are you responding to? you quote stix213. but he is agreeing with you. If you are responding to me you can save me the cop spiel. I do not advocate leos to carry inferior weapons. All i am saying is that i believe taxpayers money should go to the best quality American hand gun for issue. and then officers can buy whatever it is they want from Germany, Austria, France etc.

I am learning here now that the U.S. builds poor quality hand guns and if thats the case then i cant encourage carrying U.S. made guns.

But if youv'e been in the business for 31+ years you must have carried American at some point.

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

There has got to be a quality american handgun out there, isnt there?

Smith & Wesson M&P.

As for the comment about the M&P barrel blowing up...want to see the pics of my Glock 17 that blew up in my daughter's hand? Any gun can malfunction. The issue is whether the failure is due to poor design or manufacturing QA.

Unfortunately, most of the quality American guns are expensive 1911s (I'm not a 1911 fan):

- Wilson
- Nighthawk
- Les Baer
- Ed Brown

The earlier Smith & Wesson semi-autos were also high-quality, but they were never very ergonomic (or accurate IMO).

[1911su16b870]

Quoting Dennis Tueller, "LEO firearms are like packing parachutes", LEOs deserve to have the best available, and armorers (and officers IMO) need to make sure they work the first time and every time!

[nobody33]

Originally Posted by JDay

Colt is one.

A 1911 as an issue gun for every officer is highly impractical. It might be ok for the "gun people" who are cops... but not everyone.

[oddjob]

Yes......My Accord is for U/C work and surveillance.

This is my 31st year as a LEO and my last (retiring in Dec.) 27 yrs as a rangemaster type dude. Of all the guns I have handled here is my take on a good general issue weapon; H&K USP series. This is due to the external safety and overall reliability (I know H&K service is iffy). #2 on my list are the Sig series.

My feelings are that a dept has to issue a weapon, but should allow the individual officer to carry his/her choice of a handgun within reason.

I will say that my off-duty and sometimes U/C gun is a S&W 640, .38 special. It was made quite a few years ago, carried a lot and it shows. USA gun manufacturers do make fine revolvers. I would not feel under gunned if I had to carry my S&W 625.

[razr]

Remember issue means taxpayers money. What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]


Get real, its a lame excuse. Taxpayers money should go to the producer of the best quality product. Stop sending jobs overseas and demand products to be made here in the states, better. And be done with it.

[cousinkix1953]

There one advantage of LEOs using some of those imported firearms. It becomes that much harder, for an anti-gun president to sign an executive order which bans the importing of guns. Bush 41' has already banned guns before...

[yzErnie]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

I do not advocate leos to carry inferior weapons. All i am saying is that i believe taxpayers money should go to the best quality American hand gun for issue.

I am learning here now that the U.S. builds poor quality hand guns and if thats the case then i cant encourage carrying U.S. made guns.

But if youv'e been in the business for 31+ years you must have carried American at some point.

Unfortunately, the good ol' USA does not make a "best quality hand gun" to be issued. It is discouraging to me that 'less than best' handguns are being produced here in the states. Colt's would be fine with me but IMHO, Colts, or any 1911 based hand gun, are not for everyone. The biggest problem we had and what ultimately got them disapproved was negligent discharges from the cocked and locked...well, supposed to be locked...hammer position. I just wouldn't trust many of these kids with a cocked and locked gun.

Yes, I did carry a USA made gun for many years. I carried a Colt Python from 77 and into the late 80's when we then transitioned to semi autos. I also carried a Colt Combat Commander (yes, cocked and locked!!) as an off duty gun for probably 20 years. I would truly like to buy American again for a duty gun but until there is something that can compete with my side arm that I carry now I'll stick with what I know works.

Some day, probably well after I retire, a US manufacturer will produce something I wish was around when I still active!!

[bluestaterebel]

Originally Posted by yzernie

Unfortunately, the good ol' USA does not make a "best quality hand gun" to be issued. It is discouraging to me that 'less than best' handguns are being produced here in the states. Colt's would be fine with me but IMHO, Colts, or any 1911 based hand gun, are not for everyone. The biggest problem we had and what ultimately got them disapproved was negligent discharges from the cocked and locked...well, supposed to be locked...hammer position. I just wouldn't trust many of these kids with a cocked and locked gun.

Yes, I did carry a USA made gun for many years. I carried a Colt Python from 77 and into the late 80's when we then transitioned to semi autos. I also carried a Colt Combat Commander (yes, cocked and locked!!) as an off duty gun for probably 20 years. I would truly like to buy American again for a duty gun but until there is something that can compete with my side arm that I carry now I'll stick with what I know works.

Some day, probably well after I retire, a US manufacturer will produce something I wish was around when I still active!!

Well said, i'd like to see U.S. hand guns competing with the Glock, Sigs, HKs