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  #1  
Old 04-25-2019, 6:36 AM
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Post Exactly who are these people in Israel today?

Had an interesting discussion with another believer about modern day Israel. I am of the opinion that Modern Israel, who declared their statehood in May of 1948, is a fulfillment of the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of dry bones.

Quote:
1 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”
On the other hand, the person I had spoken with said that modern Israel is composed of people who only call themselves Jews. That Isreal today has no relationship with the ancient nation of Israel in scripture. Further, that the citizens are of no relationship to any ancient, Biblical Jews.

I am of the belief that modern Israel is indeed a fulfillment of several Biblical prophecies and is comprized of many Jews who were scattered around the globe. What are your beliefes on this subject?
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Old 04-25-2019, 2:07 PM
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Not all Israelis are ethnically Jewish. But most are.

The modern state of Israel was started by Zionists like Theodore Herzel, who were primarily agnostic or atheist. Most were communist or socialist. Eastern European Jews were having a hard time and were sick of waiting for God to send them a Messiah to give them their homeland back. So they took matters into their own hands & did it themselves. That is why Orthodox Jews don't recognize the modern state as a legitimate state and refuse to participate in many governmental affairs in Israel. In other words, the modern state of Israel and the original Zionist movement was a giant F- YOU to the God of the Torah. If that's a prophecy fulfilled in your book, so be it. But I don't see it as one. And neither do Orthodox Jews, as a group.

The original Zionists were diplomatic geniuses. They raised money from Europe and American by playing on the sympathies from the aftermath of WWII. They also raised a ton of money from American Protestants who were eager to see a prophecy fulfilled & hasten the second coming of Jesus. But then they took that money and bought weapons from the communists with promises to set up a communist state. And they did. So here we dumb Americans sent cash to establish and support a communist state while fighting those "Godless Communists" all over the world. Genius!

Granted, the communist era died off pretty quickly and now they're far more capitalist than they were at the beginning. That is mostly thanks to all the support we send them. Now the Kibbutz system is more of a relic than a viable economic agenda.

By comparison, Israel makes us look like a bunch of uptight, conservative prudes. Israel is far more secular than we are. 20 years ago, when I was there, we were told that over 80% of Israelis don't practice any religion at all. Some believe that they have fulfilled their entire religious obligation simply by living there. Yes, some still go to synagogue. But Americans are way more into religion than they are.

It's a strange but interesting place. In the ultra-orthodox parts, like Mea Shearim, somebody will escort you out of the neighborhood for failing to cover your head. But in the coastal areas, you'll see topless sunbathing and, after sunset, it's pretty much clothing-optional. Lots of contrast & contradiction. Living there a short time will definitely change your perspectives on things.

At any rate, comparing the modern state of Israel to the ancient Davidic monarchy is like comparing a bird to a dinosaur. Yes, they're of the same lineage. But they've evolved a long way since then. Like languages, cultures must adapt themselves with the times or die. That's true of any culture. It's part of why we're no longer a confederation of European colonies and why we have tons of gun laws in spite of a Constitutional prohibition against them. Things change.
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Old 04-25-2019, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Not all Israelis are ethnically Jewish. But most are.

The modern state of Israel was started by Zionists like Theodore Herzel, who were primarily agnostic or atheist. Most were communist or socialist. Eastern European Jews were having a hard time and were sick of waiting for God to send them a Messiah to give them their homeland back. So they took matters into their own hands & did it themselves. That is why Orthodox Jews don't recognize the modern state as a legitimate state and refuse to participate in many governmental affairs in Israel. In other words, the modern state of Israel and the original Zionist movement was a giant F- YOU to the God of the Torah. If that's a prophecy fulfilled in your book, so be it. But I don't see it as one. And neither do Orthodox Jews, as a group.

The original Zionists were diplomatic geniuses. They raised money from Europe and American by playing on the sympathies from the aftermath of WWII. They also raised a ton of money from American Protestants who were eager to see a prophecy fulfilled & hasten the second coming of Jesus. But then they took that money and bought weapons from the communists with promises to set up a communist state. And they did. So here we dumb Americans sent cash to establish and support a communist state while fighting those "Godless Communists" all over the world. Genius!

Granted, the communist era died off pretty quickly and now they're far more capitalist than they were at the beginning. That is mostly thanks to all the support we send them. Now the Kibbutz system is more of a relic than a viable economic agenda.

By comparison, Israel makes us look like a bunch of uptight, conservative prudes. Israel is far more secular than we are. 20 years ago, when I was there, we were told that over 80% of Israelis don't practice any religion at all. Some believe that they have fulfilled their entire religious obligation simply by living there. Yes, some still go to synagogue. But Americans are way more into religion than they are.

It's a strange but interesting place. In the ultra-orthodox parts, like Mea Shearim, somebody will escort you out of the neighborhood for failing to cover your head. But in the coastal areas, you'll see topless sunbathing and, after sunset, it's pretty much clothing-optional. Lots of contrast & contradiction. Living there a short time will definitely change your perspectives on things.

At any rate, comparing the modern state of Israel to the ancient Davidic monarchy is like comparing a bird to a dinosaur. Yes, they're of the same lineage. But they've evolved a long way since then. Like languages, cultures must adapt themselves with the times or die. That's true of any culture. It's part of why we're no longer a confederation of European colonies and why we have tons of gun laws in spite of a Constitutional prohibition against them. Things change.
Their political leanings and whether they are practicing Judaism aside, the Jews and Zionists still have Jewish DNA, no? Thus, I think the prophecy still stands.

I am not comparing them to, or saying they are the ancient Davidic monarcy. Just that they ARE Jews and ARE brougt back from a dead nation to a thriving nation as foretold.
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Old 04-25-2019, 3:40 PM
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Yes I am with You Kokopelli, unless the deniers have personally interviewed and traced the heritage of everyone in Israel and verified that yes they are non jews, they are clueless about Almighty God fulfilling His own prophetic Word.

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Old 04-25-2019, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Not all Israelis are ethnically Jewish. But most are.

The modern state of Israel was started by Zionists like Theodore Herzel, who were primarily agnostic or atheist. Most were communist or socialist. Eastern European Jews were having a hard time and were sick of waiting for God to send them a Messiah to give them their homeland back. So they took matters into their own hands & did it themselves. That is why Orthodox Jews don't recognize the modern state as a legitimate state and refuse to participate in many governmental affairs in Israel. In other words, the modern state of Israel and the original Zionist movement was a giant F- YOU to the God of the Torah. If that's a prophecy fulfilled in your book, so be it. But I don't see it as one. And neither do Orthodox Jews, as a group.

The original Zionists were diplomatic geniuses. They raised money from Europe and American by playing on the sympathies from the aftermath of WWII. They also raised a ton of money from American Protestants who were eager to see a prophecy fulfilled & hasten the second coming of Jesus. But then they took that money and bought weapons from the communists with promises to set up a communist state. And they did. So here we dumb Americans sent cash to establish and support a communist state while fighting those "Godless Communists" all over the world. Genius!

Granted, the communist era died off pretty quickly and now they're far more capitalist than they were at the beginning. That is mostly thanks to all the support we send them. Now the Kibbutz system is more of a relic than a viable economic agenda.

By comparison, Israel makes us look like a bunch of uptight, conservative prudes. Israel is far more secular than we are. 20 years ago, when I was there, we were told that over 80% of Israelis don't practice any religion at all. Some believe that they have fulfilled their entire religious obligation simply by living there. Yes, some still go to synagogue. But Americans are way more into religion than they are.

It's a strange but interesting place. In the ultra-orthodox parts, like Mea Shearim, somebody will escort you out of the neighborhood for failing to cover your head. But in the coastal areas, you'll see topless sunbathing and, after sunset, it's pretty much clothing-optional. Lots of contrast & contradiction. Living there a short time will definitely change your perspectives on things.

At any rate, comparing the modern state of Israel to the ancient Davidic monarchy is like comparing a bird to a dinosaur. Yes, they're of the same lineage. But they've evolved a long way since then. Like languages, cultures must adapt themselves with the times or die. That's true of any culture. It's part of why we're no longer a confederation of European colonies and why we have tons of gun laws in spite of a Constitutional prohibition against them. Things change.
I find the area and history fascinating. I have great respect for Israel. I had the good fortune to met several people from the area over the years. What you describe has been my understanding of current Israel. The government and military is very active in supporting startups, they have incubated many large successful companies over the years. Teva, Checkpoint, Waze , IWI/IMI and many others. Not to mention the ladies are stunning.
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Old 04-26-2019, 9:22 AM
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DNA studies have shown that Jews from Europe, N. Africa, and the Middle East have more in common genetically than with anyone else. They also have a lot in common with Arabs from the Levant. The Jews in Israel are indeed the descendants of the Jews of the Bible, ethnically. Religiously, they are all over the board. Haredi and Orthodox want Israel as a theocracy and most Israelis want a secular state.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:26 AM
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Funny. If the PLO suddenly declared themselves an secular regime, instituted a communist agenda to establish sort of secular, pan-Arab state in the Levant, I don't imagine a single Muslim would say that this is the fulfillment of any divine promise or prophecy to reclaim the holy land for Islam. More likely, they'd be branded as traitors & infidels. Good or bad, it's hard for me to see it any other way.

But believe what you want. Beliefs are just talk -- cheap signaling most of the time. Personally, I wish that the modern state of Israel could be more inclusive of Palestinians. Palestinians (even Israeli Palestinians) are treated very harshly by the Israeli police. Most of the Arab-Muslim world don't really care for the Palestinians anyway since they're too westernized. A little inclusiveness could go a long way to build a solid alliance based on shared, secular values. The conservative party in Israel (formerly headed by the late Ariel Sharon), really botched up a lot of the work done by Ehud Barak in the late 90s. It's going to take a lot of time to clean up the mess Sharon started.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Had an interesting discussion with another believer about modern day Israel. I am of the opinion that Modern Israel, who declared their statehood in May of 1948, is a fulfillment of the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of dry bones.
[...]
I am of the belief that modern Israel is indeed a fulfillment of several Biblical prophecies and is comprized of many Jews who were scattered around the globe. What are your beliefes on this subject?
I'll agree with you that the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but not Ezekiel 37. If you look at a later part of the passage, I don't think you can argue that Israel is there yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 37:14
And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.
Israel is not filled with people who are right with God/walk with God at this moment in time. They may identify as Jewish, and in some cases, may have a zeal for God, "but not according to knowledge."

In other words, Ezekiel 37 speaks of the second regathering of Israel in righteousness. The state of Israel as we know it currently is the first regathering, from wrath and for wrath.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:31 AM
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I'll agree with you that the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but not Ezekiel 37. If you look at a later part of the passage, I don't think you can argue that Israel is there yet.



Israel is not filled with people who are right with God/walk with God at this moment in time. They may identify as Jewish, and in some cases, may have a zeal for God, "but not according to knowledge."

In other words, Ezekiel 37 speaks of the second regathering of Israel in righteousness. The state of Israel as we know it currently is the first regathering, from wrath and for wrath.
Nah, if there is any real fulfillment of prophecy from Ezekiel, it would have been the rebuilding of the temple under Darius of Persia. You have to remember that Ezekiel was a prophet during the Babylonian exile. He's writing in hope of his people returning to their own land. The rich, the powerful, the priests & the bureaucrats were all stuck living in Babylon. Some liked it or figured out how to live there while others yearned for the day they could go back to their glory days.

That was done under Persia, who took over the Babylonian empire. The temple & city was rebuilt under Persia. Cyrus issued the edict to let them go (along with a bunch of other conquered peoples), was hailed as a Messiah by Isaiah (45:1 for those of you who always want chapter & verse) and finally allowed by Darius, his successor.

So, there you have it. The return of the Judeans to their homeland, the rebuilding of the city and temple at the command and power of God's Messiah. To my knowledge, King Cyrus is the only foreigner ever called a Messiah in the Bible.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:00 PM
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Modern Israel is not biblical Israel in the eyes of most. Orthodox or Haredi Jews still feel that until the Messiah comes this is basically a nation founded by the U.N. with help from early Zionists. They can't stand that Israel is indeed much more liberal than many countries. Gays, women are both in the armed forces. Israel has one of the most liberal abortion laws on Earth. Even though the Orthodox have large families, most Israelis don't. Israel was founded in 1947 due to the Holocaust and harsh treatment of Jews in postwar Europe. The British took over Palestine from the Ottoman Empire and ruled it until Israel was created in 1947 by the U.N. Again, as someone said, Israelis are some of the most secular people in the world. The Orthodox, Israeli Arabs, both Muslim and Christian, Druze, and remnants of Greeks/Armenians tend to be the most religious.
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Old 05-04-2019, 6:26 AM
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Something like less than 5% of the population is Christian in Israel.

As far as the 1947 statehood date and the Bible is concerned??? Neh. The Bible wasn’t written “to us” (a 21st century specific audience). I believe rather that it was written “for us,” and every century up until Christ returns a second time.

Holding the Bible in one hand and a news paper (or iPad news app) in the other, is NOT how one should interpret scripture.
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Old 05-04-2019, 5:27 PM
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Something like less than 5% of the population is Christian in Israel.
Correct. And scripture cannot be broken. A careful reading of several passages will connect the dots.

The Bible clearly indicates there will be two regatherings "from the four corners of the earth." The return to the land under Cyrus was from Babylon, not from the four corners of the Earth. Passages that refer to the first regathering (for wrath and for judgement) are Ezekiel 20:33-38:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 20:33-38
“As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God. I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
To the Biblically literate, this should call to mind the Exodus, where God finally judged the generation brought out of Egypt for their rebellion and constant murmuring against Him, and caused them to die in the wilderness (all but Joshua and Caleb). The "bond of the covenant" is the new covenant established by Jesus. Another similar passage is Ezekiel 22:17-22. Repetition in the Bible usually signifies emphasis or importance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 22:17-22
And the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”
Dross is an impurity when metal is being refined. It is clarified in Ezekiel 36:22-32 and Isaiah 11:11-12 that a regathering must take place before Israel is regenerated for redemption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 36:22-32
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 11:11-12
In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

He will raise a signal for the nations
and will assemble the banished of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
The full context of Isaiah 11 and 12 makes it clear that this regathering, in faith, for redemption, is the second one. Since it is the final regathering, this implies the first regathering was in unbelief, from wrath (the Holocaust) for wrath (the tribulation which is yet to come). Again, the return from Babylon under Cyrus was not from the four corners of the Earth, it is quite unreasonable to assert that.

Other passages, like Zephaniah 1 and 2, provide additional clarification that there will be a return in unrighteousness before the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord always refers to the great tribulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
As far as the 1947 statehood date and the Bible is concerned??? Neh. The Bible wasn’t written “to us” (a 21st century specific audience). I believe rather that it was written “for us,” and every century up until Christ returns a second time.
While it is true that you have to understand what a particular passage of scripture meant to the original audience before you can apply it to your own life, you are incorrect.

The Great Tribulation begins with the signing of the "the strong covenant" described in Daniel 9:27. The "prince who is to come" of verse 26 is the Antichrist, and that is who makes the covenant with the Jewish leaders. How can you have Jewish leaders if you don't have a Jewish state?

Too, several passages describe the third Jewish Temple-- Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thesalonians 2:3-4, and Revelation 11:1-2-- the temple of the great tribulation. It is clear there will be a third temple in operation prior to the great tribulation; If the Jews do not control Jerusalem, specifically the Temple Compound, how could this come to pass? The existence of a third temple presupposes Jewish control of Old Jerusalem, which was not the case until the Six-Day War.

So to summarize, it is clear there has to be two regatherings, one in unrighteousness, for wrath, and one in righteousness, for redemption. The former happens before the tribulation, and because the start of the Great Tribulation is marked by Jewish leaders (of a Jewish state) signing a covenant with the Antichrist, there must be a Jewish state before the start of the Great Tribulation. So YES, the foundation of the state of Israel was significant in eschatology, regardless of who founded modern Israel, and NO, Ezekiel 37 does NOT refer to the first regathering, it refers to the second one.

Quote:
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Holding the Bible in one hand and a news paper (or iPad news app) in the other, is NOT how one should interpret scripture.
Correct. But that is not what I am suggesting here. God gave us all brains, and he expects us to use them.
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Old 05-04-2019, 6:01 PM
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As far whether modern Jews are descendants of ancient Judea and Samaria,
it is documented that as far back as 1200's in Europe there were people that
could read, write, and speak Hebrew; how did they learn this language other
than it being passed down from generation to generation? I find it odd that a
people would masquerade as another group of people for centuries. Thoughts?
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Old 05-05-2019, 8:25 AM
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DNA testing has shown that there dna matches up with that of those who never left Israel.
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Old 05-06-2019, 3:49 PM
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As far whether modern Jews are descendants of ancient Judea and Samaria,
it is documented that as far back as 1200's in Europe there were people that
could read, write, and speak Hebrew; how did they learn this language other
than it being passed down from generation to generation? I find it odd that a
people would masquerade as another group of people for centuries. Thoughts?
Not to dispute your conclusion in the least. But Jesus didn't even speak Hebrew, nor did most of the Judeans of his day. They spoke Aramaic, which is more Phoenician than Jewish. Aramaic is still in use today, though a different form of it. As a matter of fact, I had the pleasure of speaking with a Syrian Orthodox minister last summer at Mono Hot Springs. He spoke to his father and daughter in Aramaic. As a side note, it always made more sense to me to allow the clergy to marry and have kids -- Roman Catholics really messed that one up. Likewise, Greek was the language more commonly used among the Romans for trade and business vs the legal use of Latin. Languages sometimes follow a "minority rule" pattern. For example, if 5 Germans, 2 Frenchmen, 10 Japanese and 1 American meet for coffee, they'll probably all speak English -- the one language they all hold in common.

Hebrew was a dead language for thousands of years -- learned only through the reading and reciting of old Jewish texts. Herzel and the early Zionists revived the language -- reverse engineering it, so to speak, for a modern age. Before them, nobody spoke Hebrew in casual conversation for thousands of years. It was only something they read for religious instruction.

Again, not to dispute your point. There's no reason I can see to try and separate Ashkenazi Jews from the Palestinian Jews of the first century and earlier. Seems more like somebody just trying to promote an agenda.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:06 PM
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How Jewish do you have to be, to be considered a Jew.

A Christian, by definition is someone that believes the only way to gain access to God and His promises is though Jesus Christ. People who believe Jews are inheriting God's promises apart of Jesus Christ are something besides Christians.
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Old 05-25-2019, 9:02 AM
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Basically if you have a Jewish mother you are considered a Jew. Others can convert to become a Jew, like Trump's daughter, but this is a long process. If she wouldn't have converted her kids would not be considered Jewish. Now, many Jews are not religious, some have converted to u name it. However they are still considered Jews, though not practicing in terms of religion.
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Old 05-25-2019, 9:37 AM
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How Jewish do you have to be, to be considered a Jew. [...]
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Basically if you have a Jewish mother you are considered a Jew. Others can convert to become a Jew, like Trump's daughter, but this is a long process. If she wouldn't have converted her kids would not be considered Jewish.
Seeing as how Solomon's mother was probably a Hittite, and David's great-grandmother was Ruth, a Moabitess, I've wondered how Judiasm came to that "Jewishness is passed by the mother" position.

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[...]People who believe Jews are inheriting God's promises apart of Jesus Christ are something besides Christians.
I would disagree with that perspective, which is known by various descriptions, including replacement theology. Difficult to defend that from an argument based on scripture, because (as you can read in the thread above), it is clear there will be two regatherings of Israel from the four corners of the Earth. If you're going to advocate for replacement theology-- basically, the idea that when Israel rejected Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, God was done with them, and the invisible church as replaced Israel in God's plan-- you need to have a cogent explanation for everything upthread, particularly Isaiah 11 and 12.
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:25 AM
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What is with the ads to feed hungry jews when they can waste money on launching a rocket to the moon????
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:35 AM
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Those ads are for the most part scams. Don't give them any money!
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:52 AM
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What is with the ads to feed hungry jews when they can waste money on launching a rocket to the moon????
Because not all Jews are in Israel?
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Old 05-26-2019, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
Seeing as how Solomon's mother was probably a Hittite, and David's great-grandmother was Ruth, a Moabitess, I've wondered how Judiasm came to that "Jewishness is passed by the mother" position.



I would disagree with that perspective, which is known by various descriptions, including replacement theology. Difficult to defend that from an argument based on scripture, because (as you can read in the thread above), it is clear there will be two regatherings of Israel from the four corners of the Earth. If you're going to advocate for replacement theology-- basically, the idea that when Israel rejected Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, God was done with them, and the invisible church as replaced Israel in God's plan-- you need to have a cogent explanation for everything upthread, particularly Isaiah 11 and 12.
It is dispensentialists that embrace replacement theology, not me. Dispensationalists believe that in this dispensation the Church replaced Israel as the people of God, and in the next dispensation God will replace the Church with Israel.

There has always been and will always be one people of God. Abraham was justified by faith, as are all of his Children.

I will ask the question again, how much Jewish DNA does a person have to have to be considered a Jew by God?
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Old 05-26-2019, 8:32 PM
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It is dispensentialists that embrace replacement theology, not me. Dispensationalists believe that in this dispensation the Church replaced Israel as the people of God, and in the next dispensation God will replace the Church with Israel.
That's a bit of a straw man/oversimplification. Dispensationalism is more nuanced.

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There has always been and will always be one people of God. Abraham was justified by faith, as are all of his Children.
I would agree with you on that, and so would dispensationalists. The believing remnant of Israel that survives the tribulation will be saved by repentance through faith, just like everyone else who is saved. "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

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I will ask the question again, how much Jewish DNA does a person have to have to be considered a Jew by God?
God knows.
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Old 05-27-2019, 6:09 AM
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How many times does the scriptures mention that Israel was exiled? I know they were taken to Babylon at least once.

Were Daniel, Isaiah and Jeremiah contemporaries of eace other?

I will have a follow up question.
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Old 05-27-2019, 7:29 AM
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That's a bit of a straw man/oversimplification. Dispensationalism is more nuanced.



I would agree with you on that, and so would dispensationalists. The believing remnant of Israel that survives the tribulation will be saved by repentance through faith, just like everyone else who is saved. "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."



God knows.
You called my position "replacement theology". When the position you support was demonstrated to actually believe to replacement theology, you claim "strawman"..... LOL

There will be a day when when everyone who rejects Christ will look on him who they have pierced and they shall mourn and weep bitterly. That will happen to everyone, both Jew and non Jew.

Since you are unable to answer the question about how much Jewish blood make a person Jewish. Try this. Being that the Temple was a place for animal sacrifices, and Jesus is on the once and for all sacrifice, why is there a return to animal sacrifices and a temple in the Dispensationalist version of the Millennium?
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:09 AM
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Since you are unable to answer the question about how much Jewish blood make a person Jewish. Try this. Being that the Temple was a place for animal sacrifices, and Jesus is on the once and for all sacrifice, why is there a return to animal sacrifices and a temple in the Dispensationalist version of the Millennium?
LOL, I doubt that you can answer that question, either. May I ask, in your view, what was the purpose of animal sacrifice in the OT?
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Old 05-27-2019, 8:01 PM
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LOL, I doubt that you can answer that question, either. May I ask, in your view, what was the purpose of animal sacrifice in the OT?
I can answer that quest. Nothing in the Jewish DNA matter. Abraham was justified by faith. Those who are justified by faith are Abraham seed.

The purpose of animal sacrifice was to teach that with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Animal sacrifices allowed the H.P. access to the Tabernacle. The writer of the Book of Hebrews wrote the entire Epistle dedicated to this topic. Do you think that some parts of the Bible will be "Replaced" at a later date in the Millennium?
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Old 05-27-2019, 8:53 PM
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You are correct JeffC, excellent answer. As for the sacrifices occurring again during the millennium, read the book of Ezekiel again, its a long read.

Psalm 1
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:23 PM
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I can answer that quest. Nothing in the Jewish DNA matter. Abraham was justified by faith. Those who are justified by faith are Abraham seed.
But you didn't answer the question you asked. You asked "How Jewish do you have to be, to be considered a Jew?" and then you asked later, "I will ask the question again, how much Jewish DNA does a person have to have to be considered a Jew by God?"

It's like asking a person "Hey, do you want to play catch? Throw me the ball." And then you pocket the ball. In other words, it comes across as flippant. I'm not looking for a quarrel with anyone, least of all another believer. Have my answers been disrespectful? I realize, text doesn't convey tone of voice or body language.

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The purpose of animal sacrifice was to teach that with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Animal sacrifices allowed the H.P. access to the Tabernacle. The writer of the Book of Hebrews wrote the entire Epistle dedicated to this topic. Do you think that some parts of the Bible will be "Replaced" at a later date in the Millennium?
A good rule for interpreting scripture is that you take passages as they read, unless there is something in the text that clearly signals it shouldn't be taken literally. So when you come to the passages in Ezekiel that talk about a temple, should they be taken literally, or symbolically? There are a lot of details given, including measurements, and what is there in the text that suggests any of that should be understood symbolically? In other words, if he is not referring to a literal temple, then where are the symbols explained? The Bible is always consistent in the use of symbols.

In earlier passages, Ezekiel describes how the Shekinah Glory departed the temple of Solomon. Do we take that literally, but not the passages that come later, or that occur elsewhere? I mean, there are a lot of references to a temple in other passages which are widely understood to refer to the Fourth (or Millennial) Temple. For example, Isaiah 2:3, Isaiah 60:13, and many, many others.

So if the detail provided in Ezekiel is to be taken literally, including the sacrifices-- which differ in many ways from the sacrifices under the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law)-- can we understand from scripture what the purpose is?

Sin offerings under the Mosaic system did not remove sins. They covered sins and pointed toward Christ's perfect sacrifice, even if OT saints had no clear idea of God's plan for salvation. As an aside, this is why OT saints remained in "Abraham's Bosom" until Christ died. OT saints were "purified in the flesh" by outward obedience to the system of Mosaic sacrifices, and if that was true of saints before Christ, it would not be inconsistent to assume the same could be true of sacrifices made in the Millennial Temple. People in the Millennial Kingdom will not be sinless; in the same way that fellowship with God and ritual cleanliness was restored by the outward obedience of the saints under the Mosaic system, it is possible that fellowship will be restored and flesh will be purified by sacrifice in the Millennial Kingdom. The Shekinah Glory of God will be present in the Millennial Temple, so how can someone sinful and ritually unclean come into the presence of God, who is Holy, Holy, Holy?

It is also plausible that sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom will memorialize the death of Christ, in the same way that we memorialize it now by celebrating communion.
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Old 05-28-2019, 5:25 AM
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Modern Israel is just a political construct in an historical area of the world.


The TRUE Israel spoken of in the NT, is The whole Church of earth.
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Old 05-28-2019, 6:46 AM
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Modern Israel is just a political construct in an historical area of the world.


The TRUE Israel spoken of in the NT, is The whole Church of earth.

We would be wise to look at The Scriptures for guidance from the Holy Spirit on the matter. Romans 11 covers it.

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Romans 11 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Remnant of Israel

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.
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Gentiles Grafted In

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

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Romans 11:17-24 English Standard Version (ESV)

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[a] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
God's promise to Abraham was confirmed to Isaac and confirmed to Jacob. It is a promise to the bloodline that would preceed Messiah. We are children of Abraham by faith. Are we, the church, the children of Isaac or Jacob?
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Old 05-28-2019, 7:01 PM
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We would be wise to look at The Scriptures for guidance from the Holy Spirit on the matter. Romans 11 covers it.








God's promise to Abraham was confirmed to Isaac and confirmed to Jacob. It is a promise to the bloodline that would preceed Messiah. We are children of Abraham by faith. Are we, the church, the children of Isaac or Jacob?
Actually the entire Bible covers this topic over and over and over again.

Issac and Jacob was a believer, Esau who was also of the same bloodline was not. Funny how that worked out.

Can you be the child of great great grandfather with out being the child of you great grandfather?
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:52 AM
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[...]
The TRUE Israel spoken of in the NT, is the whole Church of earth.
"In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty, and in all things, charity" is good to be mindful of. Likewise, Tim Keller's admonition that "Truth without love really isn’t truth. Love without truth really isn’t love. They have to be together."

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Actually the entire Bible covers this topic over and over and over again.
It does, and that is why it is difficult for me to understand how people can allegorize and spiritualize vast swaths of scripture, which is what you have to do if you're going to dismiss the idea that God isn't finished dealing with the Jewish people.

Jeremiah 24:7

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Originally Posted by Holy Spirit, via Jeremiah
I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.
Jeremiah 31

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Originally Posted by Holy Spirit, via Jeremiah
Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke [...]
Isaiah 29 and 30

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Originally Posted by Holy Spirit, via Isaiah
Therefore thus says the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
“Jacob shall no more be ashamed,
no more shall his face grow pale.
For when he sees his children,
the work of my hands, in his midst,
they will sanctify my name;
they will sanctify the Holy One of Jacob
and will stand in awe of the God of Israel.
And those who go astray in spirit will come to understanding,
and those who murmur will accept instruction.”
Isaiah 44

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Originally Posted by Holy Spirit, via Isaiah
Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you; you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud
and your sins like mist;
return to me, for I have redeemed you.
And many, many, many others, including Romans 11, partially cited above, which makes no sense if Israel is understood to mean the invisible church in that context. When someone wants to spiritualize, or allegorize, a passage, the burden is on them to justify why the passage shouldn't be taken literally.

More to it, when someone wants to spiritualize and allegorize these passages, they create many other difficulties for themselves, like trying to fit a carpet into a room which is too small for it. They can get one, maybe two corners down, but they can't make the whole carpet fit. Again, God gave us all brains, He expects us to use them. The most compelling, clear, and consistent explanation for the vast swaths of scripture upthread is the one that makes a literal reading entirely plausible.

For example, take the covenant with Abraham. God promised him the land: "Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you." Likewise, to Isaac: "for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands." And to Jacob: "The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring..."

But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died before they took possession of the land. (As an aside, this is why Jesus' remarks to the Pharisees and Sadducees, as recorded in the synoptic gospels (Matthew 22, Mark 12, and Luke 20) are not a non-sequitur, as many wonder about, because what He was saying, in essence, was "God promised the land to the patriarchs, and how will God fulfill His promise if they are dead?" In other words, the reason the crowds were astonished at His teaching was because Jesus had provided a fresh argument from the Torah in favor of the resurrection of the dead, which the Pharisees and Sadducees had apparently overlooked up to that point, and a fresh understanding a famous passage.) And when Israel came into the land under Joshua, they did not fully possess the land that was promised, so these promises of God remain unfulfilled, even now. If one accepts the idea that God isn't finished with the Jewish people, and that there will be a regeneration of the Jewish people in the future, where they will take full possession of the promised land, in one fell swoop you gain fulfillment of all the yet-unfulfilled Jewish covenants-- the Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, the Palestinian Covenant, and the New Covenant-- plus literal fulfillment of many prophecies. It is both simple and elegant. But if one rejects this, how then can they explain these vast swaths of scripture as spiritualized allegory? I'm open to any reasonable arguments.
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Old 06-03-2019, 12:12 PM
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Socal Shooter, great reply. Totally agree. I don't subscribe to the idea of seperating Israel God's literal seperated and saved spiritual people from being any different from what westerners call the Christian church. All believers in Jesus are grafted into the same tree. However, Israel as a political nation today I believe God is using the political powers that be to gather Israel the ethnic lineage in order to do a big reveal of Jesus as their messiah. Though there are many Jews who already to believe in Jesus as their messiah, God still has to wrest the power out of the religious leaders currently of Israel who don't believe and also wrest the power out of their political leadership. He will also do this worldwide as well, and it will mark the beginning of the millenial age where Jesus will rule the world with justice and grace. Before that occurs, first there will be a one world government in power (New World Order?), and a single man in the "type" of all previous tyrants but with almost no restraint to power given to him by God in order for there to be a final seperation of the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares. Also, how magnificent will it be when the ultimate power attainable on earth is destroyed by the mere breath/tongue of Jesus when he comes remove the imposter ruler of the world. This scenario begs the question also of when the "snatching up" by God, of his people will occur. Before the world tyrant or after? I think it best to accept whether it is ordained before or after, it is in God's timing. Either way it is our job if we are followers of Jesus, to keep in step with the spirit and love fellow man as best we can, while still holding the truth of the gospel and repentence as a part of being saved and sanctification as fruit of that salvation we await upon Christ's return.......... For clarification, I don't think that Israel is the church symbolically now at all. It's an odd concept, but it's the other way around the "church" is grafted into Israel. For the time being however, it doesn't mean grafted into the political nation state of Israel being led by corrupted men. Grafted into a literal people, but this is prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet until Israel is led by the son of David, the son of man, the alpha and the omega, the king of kings, God the Son. This all goes back to the tower of Babel, when God broke apart mankind into nations that would all continue the spiritual rebellion started at Babel. Except he brought out one man Abraham, to become a nation that is God's inheretence on earth. The people of other nations since basically when Jesus showed he had power outside of Israel's borders at the time in Cesarea and Mount Hermon, (and available to any believer at pentecost), were now able to be grafted in to God's inheretence. Some people only see political zionism, and are you for or against it. I think that is too narrow minded to think in such a way. God uses any nation or political leaders he wishes, whether they are wicked or not they think they are preparing for one thing and end up getting something entirely different. It doesn't mean I would be for or against today's political zionism. The Palestinian (Arab) people are also made in God's image, and just like any other people God wishes for all to come to faith and repentence in Jesus. Most of the kings of Judah and Israel were wicked. So I will not support every action this current political form of power in Israel decides to do, including some of the evil things they do to Arab people in Israel. Conversely, it is written the land is and will be given to Israel. This is a great offense to many, but who should thumb their nose at God if he is real? What is worse, believing that Israel belongs to the Jews, or believing the WORLD will be given to spiritual Israel (but not symbolically, literally people who God now calls his own). Yes the Jews in Israel are descended from the Hebrews of the OT, but all vary in degree genetically. Don't let this new thing that is going around that is Hebrew roots movement cast confusion. Some are saying the Jews in Israel aren't Jews, some are saying only black people are Jews. Some have theories about the "lost tribes", which is melarkey. Israel split into Judah (and Manessah/Benjamin?) In the South and the rest in the North which kept the name Israel. There were no lost tribes. When the Hebrews were allowed to come back to Israel to rebuild the temple under Cyrus/ Medo-Persians after they defeated the Babylonians, the kingdom was never really a kingdom again except as a vasal state and some rebellions.
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Old 06-04-2019, 4:44 PM
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It does, and that is why it is difficult for me to understand how people can allegorize and spiritualize vast swaths of scripture, which is what you have to do if you're going to dismiss the idea that God isn't finished dealing with the Jewish people.


Exactly what did I allegorize?

Exactly where did I say God is finished dealing with the Jewish people?

The clear difference between us, seems to be I believe in fulfillment of a prophesy and see you multiple fulfillments of a prophesy. A question I have, is how many fulfillment of a prophesy can there be? how do you decide when a prophesy is filled of being filled?
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Old 06-04-2019, 4:49 PM
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Their political leanings and whether they are practicing Judaism aside, the Jews and Zionists still have Jewish DNA, no? Thus, I think the prophecy still stands.

I am not comparing them to, or saying they are the ancient Davidic monarcy. Just that they ARE Jews and ARE brougt back from a dead nation to a thriving nation as foretold.
How much Jewish DNA qualifies a person as a Jew?

Who is more Jewish, a Muslim with 100% Jewish DNA or a Jewish convert with 0 Jewish DNA?
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Old 06-05-2019, 9:43 AM
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The clear difference between us, seems to be I believe in fulfillment of a prophesy and see you multiple fulfillments of a prophesy. A question I have, is how many fulfillment of a prophesy can there be? how do you decide when a prophesy is filled of being filled?
May I ask, would you say the following examples are fulfilled or unfulfilled?

Zechariah 9:9-10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Spirit via Zechariah
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
righteous and having salvation is he,
humble and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
and the war horse from Jerusalem;
and the battle bow shall be cut off,
and he shall speak peace to the nations;
his rule shall be from sea to sea,
and from the River[a] to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 11:1-5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Spirit via Isaiah
There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins.
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2019, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
May I ask, would you say the following examples are fulfilled or unfulfilled?

Zechariah 9:9-10



Isaiah 11:1-5
According to the New Testament Jesus is a decedent of Jessie who is also the promised King of the daughters of Zion, he even road a donkey. Jesus came in the flesh fulfilling those promises. If you dispute this, see Jesus comments in Luke 4:18

Notice how I clearly answered a question.

Your turn.

In your view, there will be a return to OT sacrifices If the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient for the remission of sins why is there a need to return to sacrifices?

The reason I ask is it seems to me, and I hope I am in error, that you are not satisfied with Jesus's fulfillment of the scripture nor are you satisfied with His sacrifice. So much is your dissatisfaction is you want Him to return multiple times until He fulfills the scripture to your satisfaction, and you want to return to animal sacrifices which is anathema.
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2019, 11:43 PM
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According to the New Testament Jesus is a decedent of Jessie who is also the promised King of the daughters of Zion, he even road a donkey. Jesus came in the flesh fulfilling those promises. If you dispute this, see Jesus comments in Luke 4:18
I would disagree. Those passages are both partially fulfilled, and it is clear from the context.

In the Zechariah passage, verse 9 is a fulfilled prophecy regarding the first coming of Christ (bolded for emphasis). But verse 10 is a reference to the second coming, which we know because Jesus did not do any of the things mentioned in verse 10 while he was here before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Spirit, via Zechariah

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
righteous and having salvation is he,
humble and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
and the war horse from Jerusalem;
and the battle bow shall be cut off,
and he shall speak peace to the nations;
his rule shall be from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Likewise, in the Isaiah 11 passage, the first two verses refer to the first coming, but the rest to the second coming, again clear from the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Spirit via Isaiah

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins.
I can't speak for God, but for Him-- unlike for us-- the future is as perfectly known as the past. There is no uncertainty, whatsoever, so He can tell us about things in a passage that reads, on a certain level, like there is no time gap between the events described in one verse and the next one. We know there is a gap because of hindsight and because of details that are filled in by other scriptures. There are other examples of passages like this-- particularly prophecies-- where the same thing happens. My point is, I believe in fulfillment of prophecy as well, but it's not possible to classify every single prophecy in the Bible as either fulfilled or unfulfilled.

Regarding the quotation from Luke, Jesus is citing a passage from Isaiah 61, another example of a passage which blends a reference to the first coming with a reference to the second coming. There is a lot going on in Luke 4, a lot of backstory, but suffice it to say, the verses bolded below are a reference to the first coming, and the rest to the second coming. It made no sense for Him to get into that at that moment; his purpose was different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Spirit via Isaiah

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor
,
and the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn;
to grant to those who mourn in Zion—
to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;
that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified. [...]
That's why Jesus stopped where He did, because He knew the rest of the passage was a reference to the second coming. As an aside, why do you think Jesus mentioned what God did for two Gentiles (the widow in Zarephath and Naaman the Syrian) to the people in the synagogue where He grew up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
Notice how I clearly answered a question. Your turn.

In your view, there will be a return to OT sacrifices If the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient for the remission of sins why is there a need to return to sacrifices?
I have diligently and patiently answered most of the questions you have asked, and that one, I already answered upthread (post 29).

To recap, there is no reason to allegorize Ezekiel 40-48. A detailed description of a temple and a location is given, with an abundance of physical measurements, a division of the land, duties for the priests, and sacrifices. I believe this passage should be taken literally, because it is clearly not figurative language. Again, if someone wants to argue that a passage is to be understood figuratively and not literally, the burden is on them to justify that reading.

Regarding the sacrifices, there are clear differences between the system described in Ezekiel 44 and the system that was given to Moses. Is it reasonable to assert that the system of Ezekiel 44 is a reestablishment of the Mosaic sacrifices? I'm not asserting that; if you are, you probably should explain the significance of the differences (there are many) and/or why they can be ignored (which you have to assert if you are saying that the Mosaic system is coming back). Just because it has some similarities doesn't mean the two systems are the same.

Ezekiel is not the only one to speak of sacrifice in the Millennial, or Messianic Kingdom; in Zechariah 14, it plainly states the Feast of Booths will be observed, and observing that feast required sacrifices.

What was the purpose of OT sacrifices? As mentioned previously, we know from scripture that whatever the multifaceted purpose of those sacrifices was, they provided atonement (covering) for sin, but not permanent forgiveness. The sacrifices also pointed the way to Christ's perfect sacrifice, but to OT believers, who had no understanding of Messiah's two comings, is that all? All believers-- OT saints, NT saints, saints in the Tribulation, saints in the Millennial Kingdom-- are all saved the same way: by grace through faith. Even the Jews whom God will redeem in the second regathering will be saved by grace through faith. But whatever external obedience to the system of OT sacrifices accomplished besides atonement-- ritual cleanliness, restoration of fellowship with God (the same way that we confess our sins to restore our fellowship with God)-- the sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom could very well fulfill similar purposes: memorialize the death of Christ, just like we do with communion, provide ritual cleanliness, restoration of fellowship with God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
The reason I ask is it seems to me, and I hope I am in error, that you are not satisfied with Jesus's fulfillment of the scripture nor are you satisfied with His sacrifice. So much is your dissatisfaction is you want Him to return multiple times until He fulfills the scripture to your satisfaction, and you want to return to animal sacrifices which is anathema.
I think you are misunderstanding and mischaracterizing my beliefs. Regardless of what you think about dispensationalism, that approach is the one which makes the most consistent use of taking Bible passages at face value, i.e., literally. It is also the approach which provides a very reasonable argument of how various unfulfilled covenants and prophecies will be fulfilled. Not everyone agrees, but these are not essentials.

The thread started with a question about Ezekiel 37, and, as I have argued, I think it is unreasonable to view the current state of Israel as a fulfillment of that prophecy. It is far more reasonable to take Isaiah 11 at face value, and accept the argument that there will be two regatherings of Israel, just like scripture says.

But again, in essentials, unity, in nonessentials, liberty, and in everything, charity.
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  #40  
Old 08-01-2019, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Hebrew was a dead language for thousands of years -- learned only through the reading and reciting of old Jewish texts. Herzel and the early Zionists revived the language -- reverse engineering it, so to speak, for a modern age. Before them, nobody spoke Hebrew in casual conversation for thousands of years. It was only something they read for religious instruction.
Not really. True, Hebrew wasn't used in casual conversation. The first modern child brought up speaking Hebrew as his first language was born in 1882, but it wasn't just "religious instruction" before that.

Wikipedia's article on medieval Hebrew says:
Hebrew persevered through the ages as the main language for written purposes by all Jewish communities around the world for a large range of uses—not only liturgy, but also poetry, philosophy, science and medicine, commerce, daily correspondence and contracts. There have been many deviations from this generalization such as Bar Kokhba's* letters to his lieutenants, which were mostly in Aramaic, and Maimonides' writings*, which were mostly in Arabic; but overall, Hebrew did not cease to be used for such purposes. For example, the first Middle East printing press, in Safed (modern Israel), produced a small number of books in Hebrew in 1577, which were then sold to the nearby Jewish world. This meant not only that well-educated Jews in all parts of the world could correspond in a mutually intelligible language, and that books and legal documents published or written in any part of the world could be read by Jews in all other parts, but that an educated Jew could travel and converse with Jews in distant places, just as priests and other educated Christians could converse in Latin.
*Bar Kokhba led the final uprising against Rome in 132, over sixty years after the destruction of the Second Temple. Maimonides was active in the latter half of the 12th century.
Maimonides
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