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Firearms Accessories: Holsters, Safes, Lights & more If it locks up, carries, fits on to or cleans up your firearms, discuss it here.

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  #1  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:09 AM
TallestTower TallestTower is offline
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Default Just fell down the Gun Safe Scam rabbit hole...

For years, I've planned to proudly buy a Liberty Safe, made in the USA, when I finally had space for one.

Big thick doors and walls and bolts. Grade 1 combination lock on the front. And that massive spoke wheel to open the bolts.


And drywall inside. Lots and lots of drywall. Carpet over drywall. The walls and doors made of drywall, with a thin shell of metal around it.

Wait, what?

I thought I was buying an impenetrable vault!

But peel back the carpet that lines the thing, and you can see the drywall with your own eyes.

I've recently run into UL ratings for safes (TL-15, TL-30, TL-30x6, TRTL-30x6, TXTL-60x6), and I kept wondering why Liberty safes never mentions these on their website, and instead provides their own numerical safety level system.


Turns out that ALL so called "gun safes" are not safes at all, but Residential Security Containers, a completely separate UL rating from those used on actual safes.

And what does the RSC rating require? It must take at least 5 minutes to open the safe with a 3-pound sledge and an 18" crowbar. 5 minutes!

The lowest-rated UL safes, which are TL-15, must survive 15 minutes with a whole range of additional tools.

Turns out that an angle grinder can eat through thin sheet metal and drywall like a hot knife through butter, and your "safe" can then be peeled open like a can of sardines.


Real safes have thick doors because they are made out of solid steel plates. Gun "safes" have thick doors made of bent sheet metal with drywall inside. The thicker the door looks, the more layers of drywall it contains.

Even those massive bolts are fake: very short and held in place inside the door with tiny spot welds or screws on flimsy control rods.

I.e., it's all fake. Disneyland. It looks massive and impressive, but it's not.

People have been able to chop through the sides of these safes with an axe. An axe!

I have no problem with Residential Security Containers for storing guns or other things. Not everyone needs a jewelry-store-level vault. But don't lie about what you're making, or trick people by making it look beefier than it really is. If it offers about as much security as a gym locker, tell people that. Don't put thick bolts on thin walls.

And the real shame is that, at the upper end of these "safe" product lines, the prices get up into the range of real UL-rated safes. A Liberty Presidential starts at $5000 and goes up from there.

You can get a brand new, American-made TL-30 real safe that is tall enough for long guns for less than that. And it will take 30 minutes to get through with an angle grinder.

https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...-security-safe

It does weigh 2x more than a Liberty Presidential. That's because real steel plates are much heavier than drywall!


A good introduction to this rabbit hole is here:

https://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articl...or-is-stronger

I'm kinda shocked by how buried this information is.

I almost fell for this scam and spent several thousand dollars on a poorly-insulated gym locker.


Even worse, there's some evidence that the drywall linings in these things attract moisture and release chemicals that rusts your guns. Even if there's no fire. And if there is a fire, they block the heat by releasing steam into the safe....

Real TL-rated safes offer fire protection with double-walled designs filled with poured concrete, meaning that the fireproofing is sealed off from the contents by the welded metal lining. Even during a fire, there's no steam released inside.


Liberty is just one example. All mainstream fire-proof gun "safes" are built pretty much exactly the same way. Some in the USA, some in China. All of them are RSCs that can be "bent" open with simple hand tools or chopped through with an axe.

Liberty just happens to be the one that almost tricked me.

Last edited by TallestTower; 04-28-2021 at 9:12 AM..
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:11 AM
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You’re just figuring this out ??
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:17 AM
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I didn't get serious about buying a safe until recently...

And there are plenty of 3rd party videos (like gun channels) on YT where people demonstrate how "awesome" these "safes" are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p54toAS960

So I figured it couldn't hurt to do my part to spread the word a bit more.

Maybe it will save at least one person from getting scammed.
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:26 AM
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Get a made in California safe from a great company.

https://www.sturdysafe.com/
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:34 AM
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Safes are extremely difficult to buy because everything you need to see and know is buried under the paint and carpet. And safe MFG's often don't disclose a lot of the details for their safes, both for security purposes but also because if you knew how crappy some of them truly were, you would likely never buy it. It can really be tough evaluating and comparing safes.
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:38 AM
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better than laying them around, the point is they don't just walk off with them without significant amount of time. So the quality of the safe is important yes, getting a camera is a must. Fires are unfortunate but try to fireproof as much as you can.
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:43 AM
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Interesting, personally I had no idea about that aspect. I haven't bought a safe after our move yet so I am thinking I'm glad I sold the one I had before moving.

Last edited by daveinwoodland; 04-28-2021 at 9:47 AM..
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2021, 9:47 AM
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You're confusing insulation and fire proofing with drywall. And my level 4 armor is just bent sheet metal. I guess you need to let us know what gauge you get to decide when metal goes from sheets to plates?
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2021, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
For years, I've planned to proudly buy a Liberty Safe, made in the USA, when I finally had space for one.

Big thick doors and walls and bolts. Grade 1 combination lock on the front. And that massive spoke wheel to open the bolts.


And drywall inside. Lots and lots of drywall. Carpet over drywall. The walls and doors made of drywall, with a thin shell of metal around it.

Wait, what?

I thought I was buying an impenetrable vault!

But peel back the carpet that lines the thing, and you can see the drywall with your own eyes.

I've recently run into UL ratings for safes (TL-15, TL-30, TL-30x6, TRTL-30x6, TXTL-60x6), and I kept wondering why Liberty safes never mentions these on their website, and instead provides their own numerical safety level system.


Turns out that ALL so called "gun safes" are not safes at all, but Residential Security Containers, a completely separate UL rating from those used on actual safes.

And what does the RSC rating require? It must take at least 5 minutes to open the safe with a 3-pound sledge and an 18" crowbar. 5 minutes!

The lowest-rated UL safes, which are TL-15, must survive 15 minutes with a whole range of additional tools.

Turns out that an angle grinder can eat through thin sheet metal and drywall like a hot knife through butter, and your "safe" can then be peeled open like a can of sardines.


Real safes have thick doors because they are made out of solid steel plates. Gun "safes" have thick doors made of bent sheet metal with drywall inside. The thicker the door looks, the more layers of drywall it contains.

Even those massive bolts are fake: very short and held in place inside the door with tiny spot welds or screws on flimsy control rods.

I.e., it's all fake. Disneyland. It looks massive and impressive, but it's not.

People have been able to chop through the sides of these safes with an axe. An axe!

I have no problem with Residential Security Containers for storing guns or other things. Not everyone needs a jewelry-store-level vault. But don't lie about what you're making, or trick people by making it look beefier than it really is. If it offers about as much security as a gym locker, tell people that. Don't put thick bolts on thin walls.

And the real shame is that, at the upper end of these "safe" product lines, the prices get up into the range of real UL-rated safes. A Liberty Presidential starts at $5000 and goes up from there.

You can get a brand new, American-made TL-30 real safe that is tall enough for long guns for less than that. And it will take 30 minutes to get through with an angle grinder.

https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...-security-safe

It does weigh 2x more than a Liberty Presidential. That's because real steel plates are much heavier than drywall!


A good introduction to this rabbit hole is here:

https://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articl...or-is-stronger

I'm kinda shocked by how buried this information is.

I almost fell for this scam and spent several thousand dollars on a poorly-insulated gym locker.


Even worse, there's some evidence that the drywall linings in these things attract moisture and release chemicals that rusts your guns. Even if there's no fire. And if there is a fire, they block the heat by releasing steam into the safe....

Real TL-rated safes offer fire protection with double-walled designs filled with poured concrete, meaning that the fireproofing is sealed off from the contents by the welded metal lining. Even during a fire, there's no steam released inside.


Liberty is just one example. All mainstream fire-proof gun "safes" are built pretty much exactly the same way. Some in the USA, some in China. All of them are RSCs that can be "bent" open with simple hand tools or chopped through with an axe.

Liberty just happens to be the one that almost tricked me.

You can get real safe on Craigslist time to time.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sg...305565778.html

Before outbreak you can get one less than 2k.
Now Everything is expensive.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:13 AM
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Well, there are also other ways to keep guns "locked up" (away from kids), beyond hulking, expensive, fancy-looking (but fake) RSC "safes".

There are actually things that LOOK like gym lockers, for storing guns, which have about as much security as these "safes". Like the armory cages used in police stations, for example.

Or just a Pelican case with a few padlocks on it.

But when I see stuff like this, which I was excited about last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vipMRe3tGs

...it really makes me sick, knowing what I know now. Yes, those solid locking bars are way better than the "fake" beefy bolts that they used to offer. So at least they're making some improvements.

But it's still a bit of a joke. On their high-end models, these locking bars are 1/2" thick. Wow!

But the walls of a TL-15 real safe have to be a full 1" thick...

I.e., the walls on a real safe are 2x as thick as the bolts on a fake safe.


And Sturdy Safe, linked above, does look quite a bit beefier, but still made out of bent sheet metal, not actual steel plates. Also, the use of real ceramic fiber insulation batting is a huge improvement over drywall. And the safe is lined with metal. And at least they are honest about everything. What is their fire rating? They admit that they don't have one:

https://www.sturdysafe.com/pages/fireproof-safe

And their bolt design is much better.... and not fake, as they show here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7X8crrn0Kg

But those hinge-side fixed bolts seem like weak point.

I do love their honesty!


Real safes don't have fully carpeted interiors. They're doing that to hide something.... and that something is drywall.
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2021, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelvin232 View Post
You're confusing insulation and fire proofing with drywall. And my level 4 armor is just bent sheet metal. I guess you need to let us know what gauge you get to decide when metal goes from sheets to plates?
I'm willing to call 1/4" and above "plate" if you're cool with that. This source says that 6mm and under are "sheet":

https://www.astmsteel.com/faq-items/...vs-steel-foil/

There is some ambiguity, yes.

We could also agree to call it "sheet metal" if the construction method involves bending flat pieces to make corners.

We could call it "steel plate" if the construction method involves welding flat pieces together to make corners.

So if your door is 1" thick, I'm fine with calling it "steel plate" if it's 1 solid inch of steel, and calling it "sheet metal" if you have a thin piece of metal bent several times to give the appearance of 1 inch of thickness, even though it's actually hollow.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerpan View Post
You can get real safe on Craigslist time to time.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sg...305565778.html

Before outbreak you can get one less than 2k.
Now Everything is expensive.
Ah, that does look tall enough for long guns!
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:31 AM
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Question Sale, if so when and how?

These ever go on SALE?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Prestige View Post
Get a made in California safe from a great company.

https://www.sturdysafe.com/
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:35 AM
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Yeah, but those tool rated safes don't have fancy paint jobs, pinstriping, and a stagecoach mural on the front...
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Prestige View Post
Get a made in California safe from a great company.

https://www.sturdysafe.com/
This times 100 !
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:15 AM
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I'm hesitant to share this video, because it's mostly this guy hawking his Chinese-made safe alternative, but he does show a bit of what it's like to tear apart an standard "gun safe" and see the drywall inside:

https://youtu.be/v8upczb08WQ?t=24
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2021, 12:00 PM
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Plus one for Sturdy I purchase one for Costco, Home Depot and check out Homeland Security Safes. End up going with Sturdy and upsized to a bigger safe. check out link below

RR

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...6&postcount=78
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Real safes don't have fully carpeted interiors. They're doing that to hide something.... and that something is drywall.
My AMSEC TL-30x6 is carpeted inside ...

You may enjoy the sticky in this forum, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=135167

Also note that UL ratings are indicative, but not required.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
My AMSEC TL-30x6 is carpeted inside ...
Who installed the carpeting?
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Who installed the carpeting?
It comes with carpeting from the factory. Amsec makes a safe nearly identical to the RFX Series TL30x6 that does not have carpeting and does not have a gun interior. i think it is the CFX Amvault series. The gun safe is similar, if not identical in security measures, but tailored for gun owners, costs a couple thousand more than the non-gun safe, includes a different warranty for fire/theft/ lockout if I remember correctly.

There is no drywall in either of these safes.

https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...-security-safe
https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...rity-gun-safe1

Last edited by jeffyhog; 04-28-2021 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:45 PM
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Oh, yes, I have seen those AmSec gun-specific safes... they do look great!

I wonder... on that Dean Safe site, the non-gun safe you linked is listed as Made In USA, while the gun-specific one doesn't say. Any idea why that might be?


Also, if you want to get a high quality metal box for your guns that is made in the USA, contains no drywall, and has decades of theft protection behind it, maybe a Knaack job site box would do the trick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx1vWFeLGtc

Tools are high-value burglary targets, and these boxes sit outdoors in plain sight, day and night.

My guess is that such a box, which costs between $400 and $1000, depending on size, offers about as much security as a big-name RSC gun safe.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:47 PM
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I’ve suggested for years- if you own your home, buy a used TL rated safe

If you are an apartment dweller- multiple smaller RSC to bolt to walls in closets of apartments
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Old 04-28-2021, 1:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Oh, yes, I have seen those AmSec gun-specific safes... they do look great!

I wonder... on that Dean Safe site, the non-gun safe you linked is listed as Made In USA, while the gun-specific one doesn't say. Any idea why that might be?


Also, if you want to get a high quality metal box for your guns that is made in the USA, contains no drywall, and has decades of theft protection behind it, maybe a Knaack job site box would do the trick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx1vWFeLGtc

Tools are high-value burglary targets, and these boxes sit outdoors in plain sight, day and night.

My guess is that such a box, which costs between $400 and $1000, depending on size, offers about as much security as a big-name RSC gun safe.
The RFX series is definitely Made in USA. I don't know why they don't mention it on the website, just probably in a different place.

I agree that the Jobox would make a decent storage unit, at least for ammo. I'm sure the steel is thicker as many of these RSCs. Might be a pain to put rifles in, but it could be done.

I also agree with the poster above that said if you own a home and plan on staying in it for several years, look for a used TL-30 safe and pay a safe mover to move it in. They often go cheap and they are a great safe for the money. Build a gun interior if you like, or put some shelves in that suit your needs.

If you have only a couple thousand dollars in guns, it's probably not worth it to spend $5000 for a safe or RSC.

If you have a substantial collection, or have other items you want to secure when your away, then a much more expensive TL-30 rated safe may make sense. A quality safe is also a good investment, as they're not getting any cheaper. Amortize the cost over several years or a lifetime and think of it as insurance. With safes, you definitely get what you pay for.
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Old 04-28-2021, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Ah, that does look tall enough for long guns!
Nobody going to break into this. But not everybody have room for this either.
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Old 04-28-2021, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffyhog View Post
If you have a substantial collection, or have other items you want to secure when your away, then a much more expensive TL-30 rated safe may make sense. A quality safe is also a good investment, as they're not getting any cheaper. Amortize the cost over several years or a lifetime and think of it as insurance. With safes, you definitely get what you pay for.
My wife is OK with guns, just not 'enthusiastic'; I bought my first AMSEC (a smaller one) when she decided there were things she wanted in there. We also decided we wanted to keep our guns out of the hands of Bad People, and a safe helps with that.

Sold the other one before I moved in 2019, bought new up here. Replacement cost of the contents exceeds the cost of the safe.
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Old 04-28-2021, 3:53 PM
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Nothing new here. We've been discussing these topics on this board for over 10 years. It's nice to see them summarized, however, so props for that.

Metal thickness is important, but how thick does it need to be to prevent a well-equipped thief and does that thickness mean it is so heavy and so expensive it isn't worth it?

E.g does it need to be 0.5" thick everywhere which would mean it weighs (example only) 5000 pounds and costs $10K?

Focus on the rest of the security plan. Keep it hidden, have an alarm/dogs/insurance/cameras, etc. You guys know the drill.
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Old 04-28-2021, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
You can get a brand new, American-made TL-30 real safe that is tall enough for long guns for less than that. And it will take 30 minutes to get through with an angle grinder.
https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...-security-safe


That is not TL-30 on all sides though. The 30 minute rating is only for the door

A safe like that is expected to be encased in something to protect the rest of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Real safes don't have fully carpeted interiors. They're doing that to hide something.... and that something is drywall.

Yes, they do. My Amsec TL30x6 is a real safe, made for guns, with carpet. They are filled with high pressure concrete with embedded ceramic nuggets. It weighs 4,600lbs *EMPTY*. It is rated to withstand attack on all six sides.

Be sure to get the Rotobolt Doomsday lock option

https://www.deansafe.com/products/am...rity-gun-safe1

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Last edited by SkyHawk; 04-28-2021 at 4:04 PM..
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Old 04-28-2021, 4:28 PM
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Personal property security is best arranged in layers.. I would trust good fence, lighting, security camera, strong door locks, inaccessible storage area, being discreet about your stuff vs. relying on a safe as your only mode of protection
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Old 04-28-2021, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
For years, I've planned to proudly buy a Liberty Safe, made in the USA, when I finally had space for one.
I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Based on your comments, no, you didn’t “plan”. If you had, you’d not be bent by the info you apparently are just receiving.
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Originally Posted by TallestTower View Post
Also, if you want to get a high quality metal box for your guns that is made in the USA, contains no drywall, and has decades of theft protection behind it, maybe a Knaack job site box would do the trick.

Tools are high-value burglary targets, and these boxes sit outdoors in plain sight, day and night.

My guess is that such a box, which costs between $400 and $1000, depending on size, offers about as much security as a big-name RSC gun safe.
My “guess” is that, if one stored one’s guns in such a box in their home, and the home burned, everything in the box would be ash within minutes. They provide no fire insulation and they aren’t sealed against heat and water intrusion.

To that, you seem to be hung up on the sheetrock “issue”. The purpose of sheetrock isn’t security...it’s fireproofing (it also adds weight, which lessens the opportunity for bad guys to carry the safe away.) Sheetrock is an established fire retardant and heat insulator. In my home, the ceiling in the garage consists of two layers of 5/8 sheetrock to provide fire protection to the attic areas and contain any garage fire within the garage, and not allow spreading to the attic (and through the house).

Some manufacturers use rock wool or other fibers, and others use cement products which may contain bearings to help defeat drilling/cutting.

The trade-off is cost versus utility. If you live in a remote area where law enforcement is non-existent, and bad guys could work on your safe for days in you absence, and want ultimate security, then spend $15k on a bomb-proof safe which includes a 2+ hour fire-protection value. But, don’t expect to get a 4,000 lb safe delivered and installed on the 3rd floor of your condo.

If you live in an area where police and fire response is reasonable, and you establish defense in depth (as noted by N8vrmind...fence, locks, alarms, cameras, etc.) then, a Liberty Safe can work well.

Paying attention to placement helps. Bolt the safe down. This precludes bad guys from knocking the safe down and prying the door. Place the safe in a corner, with the door opening edge closest to the corner. This limits the range of prying which can be applied.

So, look at your safe as a component of a defense system, rather than the single element.

And stop worrying about the sheetrock!
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Old 04-28-2021, 5:44 PM
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Do your homework. I got a custom built safe from Homeland Safes with anti-pry tabs for a great price, delivered and installed.

ABsolutely great company to deal with. You tell them how thick you want the walls, top and bottom and front plate and they'll give you a quote.
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Old 04-30-2021, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir Toast View Post
Do your homework. I got a custom built safe from Homeland Safes with anti-pry tabs for a great price, delivered and installed.

ABsolutely great company to deal with. You tell them how thick you want the walls, top and bottom and front plate and they'll give you a quote.
They use gypsum (sheetrock) for fire suppression.
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Old 05-01-2021, 3:10 PM
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There are many manufacturers that make great 'real' safes.

Take a look at this video from a chinese manufacturer which carries a Tl-30X6 rating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln0V...9A%AA%E6%AB%83

They are resold rebranded in the USA, but they aren't gun safes per say, Just jewlery safes with no interior.

Another good option is something like the the AMSEC BFII series, its a RSCII rating, but equivalent to a TL-10x6 and has TL15/30 boltwork. AMSEC also carries a MAX line which carry a TL-15 rating, is made oversees but very cost effective.
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Old 05-01-2021, 6:04 PM
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From the AMSEC Site: (click on “Burglar Rating)
Quote:
Residential Security Container (RSC):
U.L. Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools. Underwriters Lab conducts the test and provides certification to the safe manufacturers. See U.L. TL-15 and TL-30 descriptions below for "net working time" description.

Burglary Classification Residential Security Container (RSC) signifies a combination or keylocked unit designed to offer protection against entry by common mechanical tools. Performance tests are conducted against the entire unit. The basic standard used to investigate in this category is UL 1037, "Anti theft Alarms and Devices.

An Anti-theft device, as defined by Paragraph 1.3, shall resist at least 5 minutes of attack that would defeat its purpose.
Any disassembly of the protected property required to make it removable, is to be included in the 5 minutes of attack test.
The tools used in the test are to include hammers, chisels, adjustable wrenches, pry bars, punches and screwdrivers. The hammers are not to exceed 3 pounds in head weight, and no tool is to exceed 18 inches in length.
The product under test is to be mounted securely in its intended position, and the attack is to be carried out by one operator.
TL-15 (Tool Resistive up to 15 minutes)
TL-30 (Tool Resistive up to 30 Minutes)
TRTL 30 (Torch and Tool Resistive up to 30 Minutes)
TRTL 30x6 (Torch and Tool Resistive up to 30 Minutes on all 6 sides of the safe)
TXTL (Torch, Explosives and Tool-Resistive)

The video of the Chinese safe shows it’s concrete lined.

Again, longer-term security comes at the expense of weight and cost.

Defense in-depth (locks/alarms) mitigates intrusion.
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Old 05-02-2021, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n8vrmind View Post
Personal property security is best arranged in layers.. I would trust good fence, lighting, security camera, strong door locks, inaccessible storage area, being discreet about your stuff vs. relying on a safe as your only mode of protection
This. The objective is to make it more difficult and time consuming for the burglar so they will look for an easier target. Most residential burglaries are committed by amateurs looking for an easy score. The average person doesn't need to worry about professional burglars targeting them.
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Last edited by TRICKSTER; 05-02-2021 at 8:18 PM..
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Old 05-02-2021, 6:23 PM
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There are portable metal cutting tools anyone can buy and carry that will open your safe very quickly and they won't need a pry bar.

What good really is that safe with a one hour fire rating if everything including the house around the safe has burned to the ground? Its doubtful the guns inside are going to be the real problem you have.

Safes are good to keep the kiddies out though not much more than that.

People that come to get into your safe do so because someone knew you had one and more important they knew what you had inside. Remember that the next time you're telling someone what you have and how much of it. They aren't the ones who will rip you off, its the long chain of people that hear about it after that - one of them is the one. Heard in bars and other places all over the country "Yeah, you should have seen all those gun Charlie has in that safe in his garage." "Oh yeah?" "Yeah, some really nice stuff, BTW are you heading out to Vegas next with us? Charlie is celebrating his birthday and he's taking the family"

That is why you don't walk from your house to the car or truck with gun cases that anyone can see. Its why you don't have a show and tell so you can impress people with your "collection". Its why you don't leave the house to go train looking like Mr Tactical.

Its why you don't drive around as Mr. Stickers advertising everything and everyone from Glock to your being some "Certified ______ Armorer" on your bumper or rear window and you don't have some sign on your front door or gate saying trespassers will be shot or something dumb like that.
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Old 05-02-2021, 9:02 PM
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I have an AmSec and and Liberty, both are great and to earlier posts, it's more a matter of stalling while your main alarm system is summoning the authorities. Here's a cool vid of Kentucky ballistics torturing a Liberty safe...just for fun.
https://youtu.be/_p54toAS960
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:03 PM
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Every box has a purpose. Make sure you have the right box for the valuables and circumstances. Almost every homeowner who has a large TL safe has put it into the garage because it is too heavy to put into the house. This makes it more susceptible to being removed just like it was delivered.(rare as that may be)
A RSC has a purpose for up to $10,000 to $30,000 worth of valuables depending on its construction and can be moved up stairs and into the house.

The Knaack box has a lot of great value storing $5,000 worth of goods. A $600 knaack box has the same gage steel or more then some $3000+ safes.

I believe in a full selection of TL safes in the garage. Knaack boxes in the garage. RSC in the house and even Knaack boxes in the house.

I would like to see a Knaack box in stainless steel for some real protection.
A layer of stainless steel in your safe blows the quick cutting of the sidewall on your safe.

The amateur safe attack will have a Forest Gump experience “that safe is like a box of chocolates, you never know how many layers of what material you’ll find”.

Even a small strong box of all stainless steel including the bolt would be amazing and a real be-och to get into.
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:11 PM
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They make a hope chest size Knaack Box that works great in the house. Peel the stickers off and use it as a table. Cover it with a nice cloth material. Have a nice piece of black walnut made to sit on top of it.
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Old 05-03-2021, 7:07 AM
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Construction of the Job Boxes are really no different in steel strength than the gun cabinets. Most are 16GA steel.

Also, the padlocks are easily drilled and easy to get to. Most of the boxes have a nice square pocket for the locks to fit into for protection of the shackle and body, but it will also hold the lock nice and steady while drilling it.

Stainless construction would certainly add cutting and torching strength, but at a price point that most won't buy. A sheet of 16GA stainless is more than 3 times the cost of hot rolled steel. And that's just the steel, not the labor to cut and fabricate with it.

For example, you can buy an average size Sturdy Safe 4GA body with a 3/8" door (model 3627) for $3700. Add the 3/16" stainless reinforcement package and now it's $6200.
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Old 05-04-2021, 5:21 AM
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Security needs to be multi layer and a gun safe is really the last layer. A good alarm system is key because no one will have time to cut through a safe if police are on the way. My neighbor was broken into in broad daylight Friday, they smashed a rear window and had about 3-4 minutes inside before fleeing. Cops were there in 14 minutes. They never even got to the room his safe was in.
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