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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 88 8.33%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 696 65.85%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.27%
I paid too much for my Membership! 47 4.45%
They will go out of business this year! 31 2.93%
Don't want anything to do with them! 171 16.18%
Voters: 1057. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13801  
Old 01-22-2022, 4:20 PM
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Thank you Citizen_B for the link. That worked.

I will decide after my class in April if I want to stick with it further. I really like the training and the value was awesome. Now I have some thinking to do - and that is if they survive the legal onslaught that this will cause.
  #13802  
Old 01-22-2022, 4:32 PM
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I’m hoping for some sort of a kiss-and-make-up email soon. Maybe he wants the student body to realize how bad things are going to get, then the mustachioed Knight in shining armor comes to save the day. Heck, he’s already got the sword.

Many of those poor underpaid instructors will surely be let go as attendance drops like a rock. Pahrump will feel the impact too.
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  #13803  
Old 01-22-2022, 4:53 PM
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According to supposed history if a year from now FS offers new, first time members a deal without all these additional fees, you will all be just thrilled to see those new members get a great deal and not be upset that you're paying more. That has been the newer FS members claim about previous owners who paid 10's of thousands of dollars years ago. No sympathy.
  #13804  
Old 01-22-2022, 4:52 PM
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According to supposed history if a year from now FS offers new, first time members a deal without all these additional fees, you will all be just thrilled to see those new members get a great deal and not be upset that you're paying more. That has been the newer FS members claim about previous owners who paid 10's of thousands of dollars years ago. No sympathy.
  #13805  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
I’m hoping for some sort of a kiss-and-make-up email soon. Maybe he wants the student body to realize how bad things are going to get, then the mustachioed Knight in shining armor comes to save the day. Heck, he’s already got the sword.

Many of those poor underpaid instructors will surely be let go as attendance drops like a rock. Pahrump will feel the impact too.
I actually feel the worst for those instructors and Pahrump dwellers. They have a lot to lose. And they will lose.

I feel like FS is dead. It won’t survive the legal battles from now multiple sides that will come forth quickly.

I myself wash my hands of it, thank FS instructors for the training I received and will be looking to broaden my training opportunities with leaders who have morals and ethics.

Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? What else is out there? All suggestions welcome. Any Texas based schools?
  #13806  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? What else is out there? All suggestions welcome. Any Texas based schools?
Tactical Performance Center a bit north of Vegas.

_
  #13807  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:21 PM
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Creepy sounding like those time share schemes. Get lulled in, watch a presentation, pay fees forever. Be told you paying for the privilege to own a part of something special.
  #13808  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebaneseblonde View Post
Dude. There was nothing about Scientology there at all. Nothing.

But his business model was there complete opposite of Scientology.
Scientology you have pay to take a class. You have to pay to stay in the good graces.
Front sight … nada
You don’t get it. Anyone who is mentally flawed enough to believe in Scientology is not someone you can trust. They have a flawed character. They are defective.

Therefore, the people that gave him money are reaping what they sowed in my opinion.
  #13809  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:47 PM
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CC company wanted to know what I had done to resolve this with the seller. I called and was on hold for more than 90 minutes. I started as caller #9 and my reported position in line changed every few minutes sometimes moving up the line (made it to #2!) or going down the line as low as caller #13! LOL

When I saw it was after 5pm I figured I would hang up.

I also sent Iggy an email - kept it polite simply saying that since was not going to follow through on providing anything he had sold me last month as part of the upgrade to Knight, he needed to refund my CC.

With my due diligence done I completed my online dispute of charges with my CC company.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

I have often thought I would prefer Front Sight move to a real/financially viable business model rather than go under, but the way Iggy has done it is suicide. I think there are other ways he could have gone about making dramatic changes: even rolling back his prior commitments without creating as big a mess as he has.

Iggy has long claimed that we as members, (or perhaps it was only certain classes of members) we were allegedly part of the board of governors or some such providing input on running FS.

Had I received a message proving some reasonable high-level overview of the finances and an explanation at FS will either go under or change and offered the members to vote on changing the terms, and then a proposal or proposals for new terms along with the high-level overview of how this would make FS viable for the long term ... and **if** the terms were reasonable, I would have personally probably voted to change the terms.

Such a proposal would still cause a huge uproar and lawsuits, but arguably it would have been a far more reasonable approach than what he did.
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  #13810  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Tactical Performance Center a bit north of Vegas.

_
Washington Utah is 'bit north of Vegas'?

It looks like they have 6 class offerings in 2022, and those classes are spread across the country.
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  #13811  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Tactical Performance Center a bit north of Vegas.

_
I second TPC. They are awesome. Also tactical Hyve.
  #13812  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:13 PM
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Pahrump NV is where the movie "Mars Attacks!!" was filmed. Other than that and cooking meth, why anyone would live there is beyond me?
  #13813  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert1234 View Post
Pahrump NV is where the movie "Mars Attacks!!" was filmed. Other than that and cooking meth, why anyone would live there is beyond me?
What… they got Hookers and Fireworks…what the hell else is there?
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  #13814  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:14 PM
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And I just got into my assets to transfer some courses to those I have given them to. The transfer fee is starting at $1000.00 for the 2/4 day course. So we can't even give our courses away to others. So all the memberships I own are now junk, like a bad stock.
  #13815  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:21 PM
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Thanks LCU1670 for posting the entire Lawsuit opinion.

I just read all 22 pages of the lawsuit and the court was on Piazza's side on everything but a couple of minor points that they could have just thrown out but instead they chose to keep the litigation going at the "Participants Expense!"

What I saw in the Email from FS Today really annoyed me! My biggest question was why he got involved with these a holes in the first place? And why he got involved with the PI's that essentially caused all the legal problems.

I will be getting answers to my questions in the next few days

As many of you know I have been a big Proponent of this place. I been to 30 Classes over the last 16 years and was all set to go again in March... I have gotten more than my monies worth so far, but this latest thing maybe be the end.

We'll see how all of this plays out.

Randy
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  #13816  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmy View Post
What… they got Hookers and Fireworks…what the hell else is there?
I've seen the hookers, stick to El Cajon Blvd, you'll live longer.

Fireworks, meh, I'm not 12 anymore. Blowing up dead raccoons and bullfrogs just doesn't have the allure it once did

Last edited by Robert1234; 01-22-2022 at 6:38 PM..
  #13817  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:25 PM
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Just tried to transfer some of my courses and memberships to others. The transfer fee starts at $1000.00 when before it was free. The scam gos on
  #13818  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:34 PM
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Many years ago, I endured about member via email and was CONSTANTLY INUNDATED with emails …..
  #13819  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:51 PM
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Even though I was skeptical about how long they would last, I got my membership over 7 years ago since it cost me practically nothing. Have taken courses about two times a year since then and also used it for my NV CCW renewals so it turned out to be a great deal for me. I enjoyed my courses and time in Pahrump and met a lot of great fellow gun owners. Although I still belong to another gun club, I will miss my good times at Front Sight as I decided not continue however I wish them good luck since IMHO it will probably be very difficult for them to survive very long with this type of restructuring.
  #13820  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:56 PM
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Sounds like a never ending Time Share.
  #13821  
Old 01-22-2022, 7:15 PM
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I’ve paid for 3 memberships…..”Updgraded” them each once, and even kicked in the $50 each for defense when it was an “emergency”…..now they will all lapse.

On top of the maintenance fees and daily fees, it’s $1K now to transfer any sold (or gift) memberships.

Done.
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  #13822  
Old 01-22-2022, 7:47 PM
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I didn't realize Joel Osteen ran a shooting range.
  #13823  
Old 01-22-2022, 7:53 PM
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Somehow I am wondering if I will wake up from this bad dream.

I just celebrate the 10 year anniversary of starting the "Front Sight Members Check in Here!" thread over in the Competition, Action Shooting, and Training Forum with well over 13K posts and over 1.7 million views.

It's been a great run and sad to see it blowing up in such a fashion.
  #13824  
Old 01-22-2022, 8:09 PM
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Latest FB group.

front sight lawsuit

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1605113436491546/
  #13825  
Old 01-22-2022, 8:17 PM
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I'm in for a lawsuit. My wife and I were just talking about Frontsight. I have 5 or so memberships I need to offload and now that's going to be a challenge!
  #13826  
Old 01-22-2022, 8:18 PM
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  #13827  
Old 01-22-2022, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Right now, I am debating whether I should head out to FS in Feb for my private training.
  • Insurance - $25/day - Waived
  • Facility - $25/day - Waived
  • Staff - $25/day - Waived
  • Maintenance - $50/month - Not needed until Feb 28; but I wonder what would happen if I did not pay for January...
  • Ammunition - The Bunker sells at an average of 3x market! Even at market prices - that is at least $250/9s (500) and $600/223s (1000). And I emphasize at least - no guarantee, this could easily blow up to $2000.
I guess I will be waiting out until the weekend before I depart (no penalty cancellation for the hotel)...

I called - 9s = 50cpr / 223s = 125cpr
At least $625 for 500-rds rifle, then $250 for 500-rds handgun - a total of about $900 at least.

That said, there is no telling that the cost will not go up in 2-weeks.


Now, I have heard in the FB groups that some instructors are shocked at the announcement as well. I wonder how the restructuring will affect the quality of instruction.

I guess a wait-n-see, for now...

_
  #13828  
Old 01-22-2022, 9:06 PM
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Sounds like they never had a solid business plan together in the first place or they decided to make tere hanges that their existing plan couldn’t sustain.

Either way, enormous rate hikes are a sure fire way to alienate your customers. You’re much better off increasing rates by a small percentage every year.

From what I’ve read, it sounds like they never had a real plan on how much to charge people. If they were selling lifetime memberships that didn’t include a maintenance fee then they were screwed from day one.
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  #13829  
Old 01-22-2022, 9:42 PM
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Meh, I never cared for the business side of it and I figured the place would go go belly up eventually. I honestly wouldn't have an issue with paying reasonable yearly membership fees but the $75 per day plus buying their ammo puts me out.

I bought my membership in October of 2011 and over the years attended a total of 88 classes. I had a lot of fun times, met a lot a great people, and made some good friends. I feel I DEFINITELY got my money's worth out of it! Sorry to see it all go, but it is what it is. I really hope this isn't the end but we'll wait and see what happens.
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  #13830  
Old 01-22-2022, 9:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paseclipse View Post
Meh, I never cared for the business side of it and I figured the place would go go belly up eventually. I honestly wouldn't have an issue with paying reasonable yearly membership fees but the $75 per day plus buying their ammo puts me out.

I bought my membership in October of 2011 and over the years attended a total of 88 classes. I had a lot of fun times, met a lot a great people, and made some good friends. I feel I DEFINITELY got my money's worth out of it! Sorry to see it all go, but it is what it is. I really hope this isn't the end but we'll wait and see what happens.
88 classes in 10 years is pretty good. I know if I had a memebership I’d have probably made it out there 2-4 times a year. Which brings up another strange facet of this situation. Their location is BFE for anyone outside of Pahrump or Vegas. I’m honestly surprised that people bought Uber expensive memberships with the intention of moving out there. I suppose if you’re retired and all you wanna do is shoot; or if you’re super rich and add it to your list of vacation pads.
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Last edited by Kerplow; 01-22-2022 at 10:02 PM..
  #13831  
Old 01-22-2022, 10:01 PM
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Wow, 88! I only got 33 classes in since 2012. This danged job keeps getting in my way.
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  #13832  
Old 01-22-2022, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerplow View Post
88 classes in 10 years is pretty good. I know if I had a memebership I’d have probably made it out there 2-4 times a year. Which brings up another strange facet of this situation. Their location is BFE for anyone outside of Pahrump or Vegas. I’m honestly surprised that people bought Uber expensive memberships with the intention of moving out there. I suppose if you’re retired and all you wanna do is shoot; or if you’re super rich and add it to your list of vacation pads.
I'd guess that when Piazza started Front Sight, Pahrump and Vegas were too expensive so he ended up in BFE where land was literally dirt cheap. Vegas was not especially hot on concealed carry eager. Other than shooting, the scenery definitely nothing special. When the shootings over, you're still in BFE.

Piazza did and still does know nothing about keeping a business going. But it's never is fault.
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  #13833  
Old 01-22-2022, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerplow View Post
88 classes in 10 years is pretty good. I know if I had a memebership I’d have probably made it out there 2-4 times a year. Which brings up another strange facet of this situation. Their location is BFE for anyone outside of Pahrump or Vegas. I’m honestly surprised that people bought Uber expensive memberships with the intention of moving out there. I suppose if you’re retired and all you wanna do is shoot; or if you’re super rich and add it to your list of vacation pads.
I'm not retired or anything, my work schedule just worked out well with their schedule. Plus, a few times per year I'd do course "triple stacks" and sign up for three courses at a time. There were certain times of the year where you could easily do this, usually before and after Christmas. I'm REALLY going to miss the friends I met at Front Sight and would meet up with during the annual night courses.

I can understand why the people who bought the uber expensive memberships are p$^^ed off. I'd be a little ticked off too if I had the same level membership as someone who paid very little for theirs a few years later. I didn't have one of the expensive memberships which is why I say I DEFINITELY got my money's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Wow, 88! I only got 33 classes in since 2012. This danged job keeps getting in my way.
Beanz.... You and I partnered up in a Gabe Surez AK course one time a few years ago.
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Last edited by Paseclipse; 01-22-2022 at 10:24 PM..
  #13834  
Old 01-22-2022, 10:24 PM
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Biggest turn off and red flag for me was how Piazza strictly uses a headshot he took of himself in 1990 despite us being in the 2020's now. Pretty sure he's probably aged some since then.
  #13835  
Old 01-22-2022, 10:58 PM
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All of us that are on or, near Knight membership level are on the "board of directors".

So, why can't we call a meeting of the board?
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Last edited by VolvoWrench; 01-22-2022 at 11:00 PM..
  #13836  
Old 01-22-2022, 11:31 PM
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It was always clearly structured like an MLM, but unlike most MLMs once you bought in you didn't have to buy in again allowing you to reap the benefits for the cost of dealing with insane rambling emails 2 or 3 times a day.

Mr. Piazza rights US a letter, letting US know he's blaming US for HIS failure to do HIS due diligence? I'm not interested in going back. I certainly don't need to pay money to get treated like that
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  #13837  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:22 AM
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I feel bad for Pahrump. This will really hurt their economy. 80,000 multi-day visitors a year for a town that size is darn hard to replace. Even if Front Sight manages to keep half of their members (which I doubt), 40,000 is hard to replace. The hotels and restaurants will get crushed.
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  #13838  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:15 AM
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Sad I didn't take more coursework under the old business model; I've only done carbine and up to ATHG. I missed out on all the shotgun stuff, multi-gun, and HCMP.

Has anyone curated the topics covered in all these different courses? Like in the entry level hand gun courses, what do they cover? Answer: the "three secrets" of marksmanship, controlled pair, ragged hole drill, 5 point draw, modified weaver, malfunction clearances. There are only so many ways to skin the cat of being a solid shooter in various platforms, but having the list of things to know would be helpful.
  #13839  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:34 AM
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SkyHawk SkyHawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post

I just celebrate the 10 year anniversary of starting the "Front Sight Members Check in Here!" thread over in the Competition, Action Shooting, and Training Forum with well over 13K posts and over 1.7 million views.

Wow I just read the last few pages of that thread. Couple of notes - first there are a lot of dupe posts or even 3x posts because the thread is probably slow with that many posts and so people keep hitting 'submit reply'. It is a compounding problem - the bigger the thread gets the more dupe or 3x posts which makes the thread bigger and slower adding to dupe posts. Rinse and repeat. Consider starting a new thread every year or two.

Next point - I feel dirty for having even visited that thread. All these crazy membership levels, pizza bucks, I can't even begin to keep track of all the weird ish going on there - it really does seem like a Scientology spin off. It appears to stand in stark contrast to the experience people actually have on the ground when training, but never the less there it is.

And people acting like it is normal. It is isn't. If that is the rabbit hole one has to go down to get gun training, I don't want gun training. Just take my money and train me. I don't need to be called President, Founder, Knight, whatever...
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-23-2022 at 2:49 AM..
  #13840  
Old 01-23-2022, 4:55 AM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Well, I guess my days at FS are over. I was really on the fence with the last Knights Membership offer - glad I didn't bite the apple. I will say, it was a good run for our Florida group - good training for sure.
Sig Sauer has classes in Florida which works for me and I know they are teaching in California not sure where. There is also Gunsite in SC - once a year but with this happening they may expand to more offerings.

ICM2014 responded to your PM - sorry for the slow response.
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