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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 88 8.33%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 696 65.85%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.27%
I paid too much for my Membership! 47 4.45%
They will go out of business this year! 31 2.93%
Don't want anything to do with them! 171 16.18%
Voters: 1057. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13841  
Old 01-23-2022, 5:28 AM
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Default Are there any Front Sight members here?

Front Sight just announced a total restructuring of their operations. All lifetime memberships have been summarily canceled. Any orders placed with them have been canceled and no cash refunds will be issued. They will magnanimously provide a partial credit in the company store, maybe, with conditions.

While I personally do not believe this is legal and think law suits will be a flying that is a discussion for a later date.

I feel like I just found out my best friend whom I have loved and supported is a child molester.

Any members here?
  #13842  
Old 01-23-2022, 5:37 AM
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acegunnr acegunnr is offline
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We are all over here:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=518454
  #13843  
Old 01-23-2022, 6:17 AM
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Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
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I have thought quite a bit about this since getting the email early yesterday morning.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have always wondered how they heck they were able to keep up running that place the way they do without charging more and like most of us, knew this day would come at some point.

I have only been a FS member for just under 2 years. In that time I have taken 6 classes and have/had a 7th planned coming up in May. I did this with a full-time graduate school and work schedule. I was gifted my first 4-day class and bought my Commander membership for $175. I absolutely got my money's worth.

Despite my better judgement I upgraded to a Knight in November, solely for the private training, and immediately after organized a trip with 8 friends, some who are current FS members some who aren't. I could have cared less about the "free" 1911 or the ridiculous shield and sword. I didn't even want those items.

I really have always had an amazing time at FS, the instructors have been amazing and have always met incredible people while out there. With all that said, and although I wasn't happy about it, I would have paid a monthly membership fee and the per/day fee for classes and still been happy. But Piazza absolutely lost me on two accounts.

First being the ammo requirement. This is absurd and makes ZERO sense. This really pissed me off. I've also not heard it mentioned, but what about guys who load their own ammo for a precision rifle class? That makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Second, and the most important reason of why I am not going to be continuing my membership is because Piazza blamed all of us for having to make these changes. That's just incredibly tactless, disrespectful and shows he true colors.

I should have trusted my gut and not upgraded to the Knight membership. I have donated $100 a few times when they were closed because of the pandemic and donated to the legal fight and used that as a way of getting a bunch of 4-day course certificates which I gave away to friends so they could come along to classes. So even with that I've spent a total of $2,475 have taken 6 classes and brought a bunch of buddies out there with me and had a lot of fun. Not bad in the whole grand scheme, and is it TBD if myself any my buddies will still be heading out for our private (which would be my 7th trip to FS), but I'm tempted to just do it because so many of them have make plans to take off work, we've put deposits down on accommodations, some have purchased plane tickets, have already stocked up on ammo they now can't bring. etc. But after that trip no more for me.

I really loved taking classes there, but based in principle alone I can't continue to support someone who refuses to be a man and stand up for his own mistakes and admit when he messed up. I would have been essentially been willing to "meet him halfway" so to speak because I still feel like the classes and a membership are worth it, but forcing us to buy ammo from them and blaming us for these changes along with things he's done in the past are what had led me to decide that I probably don't want to have anything more to do with the organization.
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Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 01-23-2022 at 6:26 AM..
  #13844  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:17 AM
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I have had one of the cheaper memberships for years, and have gone to FS twice. Training was fine - not great, but perfectly adequate.

What is absolutely hilarious, is that he complains in that email about sending massive amounts of emails asking people to help and not getting enough response.

That idiot would send so many spammy emails that I shut them down years ago by unsubscribing. He spent years spamming the hell out of my inbox with worthless crap and I finally unsubscribed.

Maybe he should have only sent out important emails, instead of blasting out endless spam, and then people like me would have seen what was happening.

I am only just now hearing about it because somebody posted about it in the OT section.

That guy is such an idiot
  #13845  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:18 AM
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I have had one of the cheaper memberships for years, and have gone to FS twice. Training was fine - not great, but perfectly adequate.

What is absolutely hilarious, is that he complains in that email about sending massive amounts of emails asking people to help and not getting enough response.

That idiot would send so many spammy emails that I shut them down years ago by unsubscribing. He spent years spamming the hell out of my inbox with worthless crap and I finally unsubscribed.

Maybe he should have only sent out important emails, instead of blasting out endless spam, and then people like me would have seen what was happening.

I am only just now hearing about it because somebody posted about it in the OT section.

That guy is such an idiot
  #13846  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:40 AM
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I just tried to transfer one on my hand gun courses to another. Many of us have several courses and memberships in our assets. To transfer is now $1000.00 when a week ago it was free. Just more scamming?????
  #13847  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Thanks!!
  #13848  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:45 AM
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Default I feel Like........................

I feel like I just found out my best friend whom I have loved and supported is a child molester.
  #13849  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
And people acting like it is normal. It is isn't. If that is the rabbit hole one has to go down to get gun training, I don't want gun training. Just take my money and train me. I don't need to be called President, Founder, Knight, whatever...
They are acting like it is normal because they are in denial. Very few took real advantage of the training like the members above who got 88, or 33 classes out of them; those guys knew how to work it, and are the exception. I’m sure there are a few others.
Years ago I started receiving his emails, and it smelled like a stinky sales game from which the seller had laid down with skunks and snakes. Like your parents said, “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is”, and that applies here for nearly all.
  #13850  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:52 AM
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He built an unsustainable organization.They accomplished there mission of excellent training for large groups of people.They also did a great job of teaching leadership skills to many instructors Over the years.Sad to finish with a giant Bernie Maddof type scheme.I am guessing he has made himself judgement proof unless fraud can be proven.
  #13851  
Old 01-23-2022, 7:57 AM
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200Apples 200Apples is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1234 View Post

I feel like I just found out my best friend whom I have loved and supported is a child molester.

Mister Doctor Iggy may be something else with a firearm (only second man in history! to achieve Four Gun Combat Jedi Sublime Master! blah blah blah) but he is a megalomaniac. Dude is whack. Could smell it years ago from the marketing scheme alone, and now with his overly-long emails and manifestos. No stranger to litigation, his legal troubles are now greatly compounded...
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  #13852  
Old 01-23-2022, 8:01 AM
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I see two philosophies emerging. One pull the bandaid off slowly or two rip the bandaid off in one swift motion.

The end result will be the same. One will prolong the inevitable pain. The other will get it over with quickly.

I think the good DR should be held accountable for his actions. Bad, amoral, unethical and / or illegal behavior should never be accepted or rewarded.
  #13853  
Old 01-23-2022, 8:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
Mister Doctor Iggy may be something else with a firearm (only second man in history! to achieve Four Gun Combat Jedi Sublime Master! blah blah blah) but he is a megalomaniac. Dude is whack. Could smell it years ago from the marketing scheme alone, and now with his overly-long emails and manifestos. No stranger to litigation, his legal troubles are now greatly compounded...

Glad I’m not the only one who felt this, thanks.
  #13854  
Old 01-23-2022, 8:37 AM
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Maybe he's getting rid of memberships so he can sell off the property with no liabilties?
  #13855  
Old 01-23-2022, 9:31 AM
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Capybara Capybara is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcjackrabbit View Post
You don’t get it. Anyone who is mentally flawed enough to believe in Scientology is not someone you can trust. They have a flawed character. They are defective.

Therefore, the people that gave him money are reaping what they sowed in my opinion.
I could not agree more. I am in the entertainment field and have worked with and dealt with Scientologists quite a bit over the past twenty years. Some good people but the bottom line is, it's an insidious cult of true evil and the second I hear the S word or "L. Ron Hoover", (Yes, quoting Joe's Garage!), I'm out, I want nothing to do with anyone or anything associated with Scientology.

I'm lucky this is all coming to head as I have been looking for a good tactical shotgun class and was considering going to FS. This makes my hunt simpler and better defined.
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  #13856  
Old 01-23-2022, 9:51 AM
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Default A little back story and venting

I lived in what was the great American state of California for over 50 years. In 2018 I sold my house in San Jose and moved to Idaho. Idaho for anyone who doesn't know is in America.

Normally I lurk in the "off topic" discussion lounge.

Fast forward to today. I put together a group trip for about 8 to 15 or so people to get memberships and go to Front Sight for a grand road trip, camping and firearms training.

Thank God I didn't get them the memberships! I was waiting until the first week in Feb to confirm all the people who have committed and order the memberships at one time.

Adding a $1000.00 fee to any kind of membership is absolutely cost prohibitive, not even counting all the other additional charges.

I am beyond bummed out! I an angry, pissed, and violated.

I can not see how Front Sight can continue.
  #13857  
Old 01-23-2022, 9:57 AM
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I read Iggy's email. This guy reminds me of a con man. He came up with a MLM scheme directed towards the gun community. He did this at the right political time, when so many want gun training for many reasons.

Rather than finding God, he found the "Gun" after suffering (in his words) a drive by shooting in his neighborhood one evening. So he went on a year's long quest to seek out the best training and become a Four Weapons Combat Master. He had found enlightenment. Now he was going to save the masses by establishing Front Site.

He has all the markings of a cult leader, including the phraseology; "Exchange in Abundance". You give me something and I will turn it in to so much more for you because I am that great.

There were red flags since the beginning. A short Google search found more than a few in the gun community pointing out the marketing plan was not viable and it was a MLM scheme and many of the training methods being used were outdated and from the 80s. There were concerns for the high number of accidents and cover-ups and the two major legal issues caused by poor decisions by Iggy.

I have also read here and other places that many saying that they knew it was too good to be true but they were going to take advantage of it while they could. For those that were able to go 40+ times, they got their "exchange in abundance". For those that were not able to go but once or twice, you paid for the "exchange in abundance".

This was no different that a time share.

Iggy is smart enough to have pulled it off this long. I predict that he is expecting a class action lawsuit. When it comes, he will label those people as the enemy within that did not stand shoulder to shoulder and are trying to destroy what he built out of the kindness of his heart to share with the true members (ie. the true believers). It will be a plea for money.

If and when he loses the suit, there will be a bankruptcy filing. If Chapter 11, then the attorneys get paid and the former members get a few pennies on the dollars, and the lifetime memberships are still gone and the restructuring stays.

If Chapter 7, he sells to someone that is close to him and the lifetime memberships are still gone and those who had them still get pennies on the dollar. In a few years he could re-purchas the business or be brought back as a consultant.

This is why pay as you go is much better. There are no entanglements.
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A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun.

Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)?

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  #13858  
Old 01-23-2022, 10:04 AM
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Synopsis of Iggy email:

As of today's date, these are the changes in Front Sight policies, procedures, and finances.

"F$ Bucks." Each Front Sight Buck has the value of $1 (one dollar) - can use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases including pro shop, ammo, food, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees

All Front Sight memberships now have access to private training

All rental, hotel, etc certificates, are now converted to certificates good for the Two Day and Four Day certs

One Front Sight Coin for every $100 they spent in accumulating their Front Sight Credits/Patronage Points. This places the value of a single Front Sight Coin at $100 each

Front Sight placed one additional Front Sight Coin in EVERY member's account

Private Training for Founder Members is $600 per day, per person. Private Training is booked at least one month in advance, First Come-First Served, based on availability of staff and ranges.

All ammunition shot at Front Sight must now be purchased at Front Sight. This policy takes effect on February 1, 2022 even if you have enrolled in a course prior to this announcement. Contact our Ammo Bunker to pay for the ammunition for your course.

The $50 Annual Criminal Background Fee for the first course of the new year remains in effect.

All membership transfers now require a one time, $1,000 transfer fee

The following fees, you will now be paying a fee to maintain your membership, the facilities, the staff, and insurance - approximately $150 for a two day course or $300 for a four day course.

Starting JANUARY 1, 2022 - each member must pay a $50 per month Membership Maintenance Fee

Starting February 15, 2022, proof of a minimum of $100,000 or purchase from Front Sight's vendor of choice at $25 per day.

Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Facility Fee for the number of days of their course
Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Staff Support Fee for the number of days of their course.

I realize you may have questions about the restructuring of Front Sight's policies, contact our Concierge staff at 702.837.7433

Go to this Front Sight page NOW and pay your monthly or annual Membership Maintenance Fee. The cost is $50 per month or an annual payment of $500 per year.

Front Sight Facility Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Staff Support Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Liability Insurance Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend. These total $75 per day ($150 for a 2-Day course or $300 for a 4-Day course).

You might not initially like the idea of paying a monthly membership maintenance fee or $150 in fees for a Two Day Course or $300 in fees for a Four Day Course, but a simple search of other firearms training facilities...FS still on par and less $$ per visit (?)

What if you're already enrolled in a course?
You will NOT need to pay the $25 per day Facility Fee or Staff Support Fee or Insurance Fee
You will, however, need to immediately pay your Monthly Membership Fees.
For firearms courses, contact our Ammo Bunker to prepay your ammunition.

What if you choose not to participate with Front Sight any longer?
There is nothing you need to do. You do not need to contact us. We will see that your membership maintenance fees were not paid by MIDNIGHT, February 28, 2022 and your membership will be forfeited on March 1, 2022.
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  #13859  
Old 01-23-2022, 10:06 AM
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Synopsis of Iggy email:

As of today's date, these are the changes in Front Sight policies, procedures, and finances.

"F$ Bucks." Each Front Sight Buck has the value of $1 (one dollar) - can use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases including pro shop, ammo, food, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees

All Front Sight memberships now have access to private training

All rental, hotel, etc certificates, are now converted to certificates good for the Two Day and Four Day certs

One Front Sight Coin for every $100 they spent in accumulating their Front Sight Credits/Patronage Points. This places the value of a single Front Sight Coin at $100 each

Front Sight placed one additional Front Sight Coin in EVERY member's account

Private Training for Founder Members is $600 per day, per person. Private Training is booked at least one month in advance, First Come-First Served, based on availability of staff and ranges.

All ammunition shot at Front Sight must now be purchased at Front Sight. This policy takes effect on February 1, 2022 even if you have enrolled in a course prior to this announcement. Contact our Ammo Bunker to pay for the ammunition for your course.

The $50 Annual Criminal Background Fee for the first course of the new year remains in effect.

All membership transfers now require a one time, $1,000 transfer fee

The following fees, you will now be paying a fee to maintain your membership, the facilities, the staff, and insurance - approximately $150 for a two day course or $300 for a four day course.

Starting JANUARY 1, 2022 - each member must pay a $50 per month Membership Maintenance Fee

Starting February 15, 2022, proof of a minimum of $100,000 or purchase from Front Sight's vendor of choice at $25 per day.

Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Facility Fee for the number of days of their course
Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Staff Support Fee for the number of days of their course.

I realize you may have questions about the restructuring of Front Sight's policies, contact our Concierge staff at 702.837.7433

Go to this Front Sight page NOW and pay your monthly or annual Membership Maintenance Fee. The cost is $50 per month or an annual payment of $500 per year.

Front Sight Facility Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Staff Support Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Liability Insurance Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend. These total $75 per day ($150 for a 2-Day course or $300 for a 4-Day course).

You might not initially like the idea of paying a monthly membership maintenance fee or $150 in fees for a Two Day Course or $300 in fees for a Four Day Course, but a simple search of other firearms training facilities...FS still on par and less $$ per visit (?)

What if you're already enrolled in a course?
You will NOT need to pay the $25 per day Facility Fee or Staff Support Fee or Insurance Fee
You will, however, need to immediately pay your Monthly Membership Fees.
For firearms courses, contact our Ammo Bunker to prepay your ammunition.

What if you choose not to participate with Front Sight any longer?
There is nothing you need to do. You do not need to contact us. We will see that your membership maintenance fees were not paid by MIDNIGHT, February 28, 2022 and your membership will be forfeited on March 1, 2022.
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  #13860  
Old 01-23-2022, 10:10 AM
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sorry for dupe post
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  #13861  
Old 01-23-2022, 10:18 AM
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Synopsis of Iggy email:

As of today's date, these are the changes in Front Sight policies, procedures, and finances.

"F$ Bucks." Each Front Sight Buck has the value of $1 (one dollar) - can use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases including pro shop, ammo, food, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees

All Front Sight memberships now have access to private training

All rental, hotel, etc certificates, are now converted to certificates good for the Two Day and Four Day certs

One Front Sight Coin for every $100 they spent in accumulating their Front Sight Credits/Patronage Points. This places the value of a single Front Sight Coin at $100 each

Front Sight placed one additional Front Sight Coin in EVERY member's account

Private Training for Founder Members is $600 per day, per person. Private Training is booked at least one month in advance, First Come-First Served, based on availability of staff and ranges.

All ammunition shot at Front Sight must now be purchased at Front Sight. This policy takes effect on February 1, 2022 even if you have enrolled in a course prior to this announcement. Contact our Ammo Bunker to pay for the ammunition for your course.

The $50 Annual Criminal Background Fee for the first course of the new year remains in effect.

All membership transfers now require a one time, $1,000 transfer fee

The following fees, you will now be paying a fee to maintain your membership, the facilities, the staff, and insurance - approximately $150 for a two day course or $300 for a four day course.

Starting JANUARY 1, 2022 - each member must pay a $50 per month Membership Maintenance Fee

Starting February 15, 2022, proof of a minimum of $100,000 or purchase from Front Sight's vendor of choice at $25 per day.

Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Facility Fee for the number of days of their course
Starting IMMEDIATELY, $25 per day Staff Support Fee for the number of days of their course.

I realize you may have questions about the restructuring of Front Sight's policies, contact our Concierge staff at 702.837.7433

Go to this Front Sight page NOW and pay your monthly or annual Membership Maintenance Fee. The cost is $50 per month or an annual payment of $500 per year.

Front Sight Facility Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Staff Support Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend - Front Sight Liability Insurance Fee of $25 per day for every course day you attend. These total $75 per day ($150 for a 2-Day course or $300 for a 4-Day course).

You might not initially like the idea of paying a monthly membership maintenance fee or $150 in fees for a Two Day Course or $300 in fees for a Four Day Course, but a simple search of other firearms training facilities...FS still on par and less $$ per visit (?)

What if you're already enrolled in a course?
You will NOT need to pay the $25 per day Facility Fee or Staff Support Fee or Insurance Fee
You will, however, need to immediately pay your Monthly Membership Fees.
For firearms courses, contact our Ammo Bunker to prepay your ammunition.

What if you choose not to participate with Front Sight any longer?
There is nothing you need to do. You do not need to contact us. We will see that your membership maintenance fees were not paid by MIDNIGHT, February 28, 2022 and your membership will be forfeited on March 1, 2022.
__________________
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PM me for your Front Sight needs
  #13862  
Old 01-23-2022, 10:44 AM
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Dirk Tungsten Dirk Tungsten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
I'm lucky this is all coming to head as I have been looking for a good tactical shotgun class and was considering going to FS. This makes my hunt simpler and better defined.
Thunder Ranch is supposed to offer a very good shotgun class, but it's not available at the moment. Might be worth keeping an eye out for it to become available.
  #13863  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:24 AM
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W.R.Buchanan W.R.Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
I have thought quite a bit about this since getting the email early yesterday morning.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have always wondered how they heck they were able to keep up running that place the way they do without charging more and like most of us, knew this day would come at some point.

I have only been a FS member for just under 2 years. In that time I have taken 6 classes and have/had a 7th planned coming up in May. I did this with a full-time graduate school and work schedule. I was gifted my first 4-day class and bought my Commander membership for $175. I absolutely got my money's worth.

Despite my better judgement I upgraded to a Knight in November, solely for the private training, and immediately after organized a trip with 8 friends, some who are current FS members some who aren't. I could have cared less about the "free" 1911 or the ridiculous shield and sword. I didn't even want those items.

I really have always had an amazing time at FS, the instructors have been amazing and have always met incredible people while out there. With all that said, and although I wasn't happy about it, I would have paid a monthly membership fee and the per/day fee for classes and still been happy. But Piazza absolutely lost me on two accounts.

First being the ammo requirement. This is absurd and makes ZERO sense. This really pissed me off. I've also not heard it mentioned, but what about guys who load their own ammo for a precision rifle class? That makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Second, and the most important reason of why I am not going to be continuing my membership is because Piazza blamed all of us for having to make these changes. That's just incredibly tactless, disrespectful and shows he true colors.

I should have trusted my gut and not upgraded to the Knight membership. I have donated $100 a few times when they were closed because of the pandemic and donated to the legal fight and used that as a way of getting a bunch of 4-day course certificates which I gave away to friends so they could come along to classes. So even with that I've spent a total of $2,475 have taken 6 classes and brought a bunch of buddies out there with me and had a lot of fun. Not bad in the whole grand scheme, and is it TBD if myself any my buddies will still be heading out for our private (which would be my 7th trip to FS), but I'm tempted to just do it because so many of them have make plans to take off work, we've put deposits down on accommodations, some have purchased plane tickets, have already stocked up on ammo they now can't bring. etc. But after that trip no more for me.

I really loved taking classes there, but based in principle alone I can't continue to support someone who refuses to be a man and stand up for his own mistakes and admit when he messed up. I would have been essentially been willing to "meet him halfway" so to speak because I still feel like the classes and a membership are worth it, but forcing us to buy ammo from them and blaming us for these changes along with things he's done in the past are what had led me to decide that I probably don't want to have anything more to do with the organization.
Scott: you must know that I am seriously pissed about this BS ! He seriously put a stink on all of my promotions of the place that I have posted here over the last few years, and all the Recommendations I have given over the last 16 years.

I have about $5K in memberships but I have been to 30 classes, so $166 per class is not bad. But I have a lifetime membership! And I'm not dead yet, so I expect delivery on that promise.

I was also taken a back by his blaming all of us for "his mistake!" He didn't do is Do Diligence on the Shyster, and he damn sure didn't do it on the PI's he hired that harassed the Shyster and caused the CA lawsuit in the first place.

I am hoping that he is just stirring the pot and will kiss and make up in a few days. But most members are either waiting to see, or jsut saying F it!

One scenario I have heard is that he is going to Bankrupt the place to get out of all the legal BS, and then restart with a pay as you go Biz plan?

Pretty bummed about all of this. He really made me look bad here and other places and I'm pissed.

Randy
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  #13864  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:33 AM
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I worked with a Front Sight member who was always trying to pressure sell me on joining. He was high up, Grand Wizard or whatever silly member title he had, can’t recall. He even moved to Pahrump after he retired. It always felt cultish and like he was a used car or timeshare salesman. Same with the people at gun shows running Front Sight booths. No thanks.
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  #13865  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:33 AM
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Volvo Wrench: when you toured GunSite this summer, what were fees associated with membership, class costs and did they require you to buy their ammo?

Sig Academy advises not to bring firearm through Logan due to Ma firearm laws and when you use their firearms, you are required to purchase their ammo. Frangible only at academy.

NO way trying to justify FS nut punch
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Last edited by Divehobo; 01-23-2022 at 11:35 AM..
  #13866  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
Thunder Ranch is supposed to offer a very good shotgun class, but it's not available at the moment. Might be worth keeping an eye out for it to become available.
Or just find one locally like ITTS.
  #13867  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:41 AM
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Here is my take on day #2 - let us all get back to our lives and just continue training... For example, the other social media groups are so full of drama on conspiracies, etc. of getting back, lawsuits, taking revenge, taking receivership, etc. Stuff that my brain can't even begin to comprehend... I was like - did you seriously think that this would last? As they always say in my industry (FinTech) - TINSTAAFL - "There is no such thing as a free lunch."


When I got the membership in 2018 for $79 - why not? It provided me the opportunity to try something new, a different flavor and see how it goes from there. Yeah, a few weeks before I was to head out to Pahrump, based on what I heard about the Youth classes - why not make it a family year-end vacation (December)? For an additional $155, I got my wife and two boys (8 and 11 at the time) a membership.

And yes - we had a good vacation. Boys got to try out some fun outdoor stuff, inclusive of firearms. Wife got her first exposure to a shooting class. And me? Well, I finished the 4-days with a perfect score (only one) on the test while acing the man-on-man. Ammo was cheap then, lodging was just $350 for a 6D/5N cottage. I think it was worth it.

Fast forward a few months, I attended the next progression for handguns. The 2-day Tactical and the 2-day Advanced. While the former was mostly the mechanics, the latter was mostly on scenarios. It was enjoyable training with several insightful moments. The student on student in the shoot house was a bonus, IMO.

I also wanted to try out and experience for myself the other weapons platform. But alas - taking 6-days out of the year simply isn't feasible due to work and other obligations. I upgraded my membership that allows Private training for $1,995, which I felt would pay itself back in one or two sessions.

Then COVID hit... Then THIS hit - just before I am supposed to take a 3-day private in February, whence I will need to purchase ammo from FS to the tune of at least $1K. Although I am still on the fence of attending or not - I think I would say that I have gotten my money's worth.
  • 8-days' of Youth/Children Training
  • 12-days' of Adult Training

Even disregarding the kids' days at "camp" - it boils down to $180/day/pax. On par with firearms instruction. PLUS, the relationships made, etc. - some of those I met at FS are fellow competitive shooters, as well, and do get the chance to meet up from time to time. Not bad I would say...

For the promises of resorts, free hotels, Front Sight guns and other trinkets? Who cares about those... Again - TINSTAAFL
On the qualms on the training methodology - Bruce Lee, "absorb what is useful and discard the rest!"



Now, enough of drama and let us get on with our lives and continue training wherever and whenever that may be...

_

Last edited by rodralig; 01-23-2022 at 11:43 AM..
  #13868  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divehobo View Post
Volvo Wrench: when you toured GunSite this summer, what were fees associated with membership, class costs and did they require you to buy their ammo?
@AFTII has been to Gunsite many times... I believe @OCEquestrian, too...

Based on the information I received when I inquired - Pistol 250, which is the 4DDHG equivalent - is 5-days for $1820. They don't require buying their ammo; but for those not having any, they offer a class pack for $330 (1K 9s and 50s frang).

As I was planning my Gunsite trip - my only concern are lodging and food places. Doesn't seem to be many around... And pricey... Then an alumni told me over FB that Gunsite have smaller classes (lesser students).


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  #13869  
Old 01-23-2022, 11:53 AM
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As a long time member, student and supporter of FS,

I'd say the Dr. has SCREWED THE POOCH!

My LIFETIME membership has been revoked......

but I can UPGRADE by paying extortion money!!!!!

I'm sorry, I will not play that game!
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  #13870  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:02 PM
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Default Random thoughts

Just thinking.............................

It appears certain Front Sight will not continue to exist in ether the former business model or the new proposed business model.

That said, what if say 100,000 current members decided to pull together and cough up $500.00 or $1000.00 each and buy out the good DR and debt?

Each person would become an equal part owner, shareholder of the new Front Sight.

All the litigation would be gone and the only liabilities might be normal land mortgages plus operating expenses.

Terms of membership / costs / fees would be voted on.

Just a thought..........................................
  #13871  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
They also did a great job of teaching leadership skills to many instructors Over the years.
If the style of leadership they teach is to blame your supporters for mistakes made by like the leadership, we're better off without them.
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  #13872  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
I was also taken a back by his blaming all of us for "his mistake!" He didn't do is Do Diligence on the Shyster, and he damn sure didn't do it on the PI's he hired that harassed the Shyster and caused the CA lawsuit in the first place.

I am hoping that he is just stirring the pot and will kiss and make up in a few days. But most members are either waiting to see, or jsut saying F it!
I have a lifetime membership I can (could have, I guess) will to a family member. I am also not dead. However, given his blaming us for his failure even if he does try to kiss and make up I won't be going back. His failures are not my fault. His inability to accept that his failures lead to this are a sign of terrible leadership and personality problems. We don't need him.

With any luck some of the instructors will spin off to make an affordable competitor and let front sight finish failing.
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  #13873  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toiletfighter View Post
I worked with a Front Sight member who was always trying to pressure sell me on joining. He was high up, Grand Wizard or whatever silly member title he had, can’t recall. He even moved to Pahrump after he retired. It always felt cultish and like he was a used car or timeshare salesman. Same with the people at gun shows running Front Sight booths. No thanks.
You should have checked it out. It wasn’t weird at all. His emails were weird but once you got there it was completely normal. In fact, they tended to make fun of iggy at the classes. I went to 3 classes and if you see what training costs anywhere else out there, I easily got my monies worth. Definitely wasn’t sustainable specially after seeing how nice the facility is in person.

Last edited by ENVYGREEN; 01-23-2022 at 12:37 PM..
  #13874  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:31 PM
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I actually find it all hilarious, watching Pizza milk those suckers like a well-lubed goat. Exchange of Abundance, Grand Wizards, Four Weapons Combat Masters, it all sounds like a cheesy sci-fi book, that the pages are better used in the outhouse for wiping than actually of any use.
  #13875  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:34 PM
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Here is my guess as to the next steps from the good Dr. First, everyone who is a Knight, can't sue, since it was part of that contract. Everyone else, he will offer some type of deal where you get a free year of FS (account maintenance) a 600 value and some FS coin or FS $. To accept you are going to have to sign the same waiver of lawsuit. Some number of folks will take that deal hoping that the good Dr. will offer something in the next 12 months.

Once the dust settles, there will be a new membership complete with included fees, and ammo at cost. Also included may be preferred VIP private training at some new part of the range exclusive for this new member type.

45 days after that deal, he will offer a similar deal at a slightly different price without one or two of the perks above.

All the stuff related to the resort, condo's hotel, etc. will be gone.
  #13876  
Old 01-23-2022, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
He seriously put a stink on all of my promotions of the place that I have posted here over the last few years, and all the Recommendations I have given over the last 16 years.


Pretty bummed about all of this. He really made me look bad here and other places and I'm pissed.

Randy
Yea he did. I’m glad that I didn’t listen to your continual advise about it being so great. Or anyone else’s mumbo-jumbo.
Not to worry though; in time many will forget.
  #13877  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:09 PM
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For those who haven’t gone to FS, you really did miss some

top notch training, facilities and instructors.

With over 35+ visits starting in 2000, I can say that I’m a better shooter.

Having paid $2000 for my Lifetime membership,

I can say I got my money’s worth.

But I will not pay extortion money to keep my

membership “Nash!”
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  #13878  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:09 PM
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For those who haven’t gone to FS, you really did miss some

top notch training, facilities and instructors.

With over 35+ visits starting in 2000, I can say that I’m a better shooter.

Having paid $2000 for my Lifetime membership,

I can say I got my money’s worth.

But I will not pay extortion money to keep my

membership “Nash!”
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  #13879  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
for people like me and my wife, we have paid $10,000.00's of dollars over our long membership. we will probably loose $50,000.00 + each not to mention 8 timeshares.

for people like us, and those who paid more, looks like a future class action lawsuit?? OR, a scheduled FS bankruptcy??
https://www.facebook.com/groups/frontsightlawsuit
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  #13880  
Old 01-23-2022, 1:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertClimber View Post
Share group links? Don't think I'm in any of those FB groups.
There are plenty of generic groups, but this one is specific about this Restructuring and a possible lawsuit.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/frontsightlawsuit
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