MERGED: ASK HERE, PLS -FFL03, COE And Ammo Shipped After 7/1/19

[Sousuke]

Originally Posted by paddyraid

send this to TSUSA and see what they say.

Don't bother them. They are already checking with their legal council and will update us next week.

I doubt they are a CA vendor, so this is more a case of CADOJ acting as a bully.

[Chewy65]

Is the problem that while an 03-FFL with a COE may import ammunition without processing the transaction through a licensed ammunition vendor, some out of state companies became licensed ammunition vendors. Having done so aren't those companies subject to 30352, which does not include the exemption found in 30312 and 30314?

Consequently, an 03 with a COE may be able to import from one out of state source, but not from another. Just thinking.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by Chewy65

Is the problem that while an 03-FFL with a COE may import ammunition without processing the transaction through a licensed ammunition vendor, some out of state companies became licensed ammunition vendors. Having done so aren't those companies subject to 30352, which does not include the exemption found in 30312 and 30314?

Consequently, an 03 with a COE may be able to import from one out of state source, but not from another. Just thinking.

How does an out of state company become a licensed ammo vendor? They can't get CA BOE issued Sellers permits which are required, unless they have an agent or physical presence in CA.

Licensed ammo vendors do face to face business inside the state. There is ZERO reason anyone else would become a licensed ammo vendor. There is no requirement for them to, and indeed it seems impossible if they are out of state.

And who among them would hassle their employees to get a CA COE every year? It is also required if they handle ammo.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...7.&lawCode=PEN

(a) An ammunition vendor shall require any agent or employee who handles, sells, delivers, or has under his or her custody or control any ammunition, to obtain and provide to the vendor a certificate of eligibility from the Department of Justice issued pursuant to Section 26710.

Being a licensed ammo vendor also practically requires you to keep inventory of EVERY ROUND coming and going, and to report to CA DOJ *any* missing ammo, in a timely manner. There are also storage requirements. There are no out of state companies who would do this. It will be a miracle if we have any in-state sellers doing this after a few years of living under this regime.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...3.&lawCode=PEN

Within 48 hours of discovery, an ammunition vendor shall report the loss or theft of any of the following items to the appropriate law enforcement agency in the city, county, or city and county where the vendor’s business premises are located:

(1) Any ammunition that is merchandise of the vendor.

(2) Any ammunition that the vendor takes possession of pursuant to Section 30312.

(3) Any ammunition kept at the vendor’s place of business.

Were it possible to become a licensed ammo vendor out of state, it would also require them to DROS all ammo, seemingly even ammo sold to people not in CA.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=PEN

(a) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Department of Justice:

(1) The date of the sale or other transfer.

(2) The purchaser's or transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.

(3) The brand, type, and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.

(4) The purchaser's or transferee's full name and signature.

(5) The name of the salesperson who processed the sale or other transaction.

(6) The purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.

(7) The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.

(b) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall electronically submit to the department the information required by subdivision (a) for all sales and transfers of ownership of ammunition. The department shall retain this information in a database to be known as the Ammunition Purchase Records File. This information shall remain confidential and may be used by the department and those entities specified in, and pursuant to, subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 11105, through the California Law Enforcement Telecommunications System, only for law enforcement purposes. The ammunition vendor shall not use, sell, disclose, or share the information for any other purpose other than the submission required by this subdivision without the express written consent of the purchaser or transferee.

It isn't happening. Out of state companies will not be licensed ammunition vendors.

[Erichp]

I havent totally followed after leaving CA, but seeing a couple threads discussing recent DOJ mucking about, want to make sure I can offer up some 5.7 ammo since I am going to be selling the gun.

Q: Out of state private party selling ammo to CA. FFL03+COE good to go as I'm not a resident?

Q:If private party, it would have to be sent to an FFL1 or other vendor, yes?

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1494640

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by Erichp

I havent totally followed after leaving CA, but seeing a couple threads discussing recent DOJ mucking about, want to make sure I can offer up some 5.7 ammo since I am going to be selling the gun.

Q: Out of state private party selling ammo to CA. FFL03+COE good to go as I'm not a resident?

Q:If private party, it would have to be sent to an FFL1 or other vendor, yes?

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1494640

Yes.

Selling to a FFL03 + COE would be fine even if you were not a resident currently. As of July 1 everything Face to Face has to happen through a dealer.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

As of July 1 everything Face to Face has to happen through a dealer.

03FFL w/COE will still be exempt from using an ammo vendor for face to face private party purchases of ammo. This law does not stop on July 1, 2019.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=PEN

30312
(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:

(6) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

[broadside]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

03FFL w/COE will still be exempt from using an ammo vendor for face to face private party purchases of ammo. This law does not stop on July 1, 2019.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=PEN

Does not stop DOJ "regulations" from overreaching or out-of-state companies deciding to not push their luck and just stop selling here.

I am glad I can still legally import myself, i'll road trip if needed

[Sousuke]

Originally Posted by broadside

Does not stop DOJ "regulations" from overreaching or out-of-state companies deciding to not push their luck and just stop selling here.

I am glad I can still legally import myself, i'll road trip if needed

You know, I read the targetsports post again and I’m not even sure CADOj gave bad info, more than likely the wrong questions were asked.

[Syntax Error]

Wouldn't surprise me if TS-USA reverses their 03 FFL + COE cutoff announcement in a few weeks after reviewing the actual penal code again with their attorneys and after they have foolishly accepted bad info from the CA DOJ, which is well known for its overreach.

[userformerlyknownasfitty]

Originally Posted by Syntax Error

Wouldn't surprise me if TS-USA reverses their 03 FFL + COE cutoff announcement in a few weeks after reviewing the actual penal code again with their attorneys and after they have foolishly accepted bad info from the CA DOJ, which is well known for its overreach.

I sure hope so. This would be far from the first time that the DOJ has given out wrong info.

[Chewy65]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

How does an out of state company become a licensed ammo vendor? They can't get CA BOE issued Sellers permits which are required, unless they have an agent or physical presence in CA.

Licensed ammo vendors do face to face business inside the state. There is ZERO reason anyone else would become a licensed ammo vendor. There is no requirement for them to, and indeed it seems impossible if they are out of state.

And who among them would hassle their employees to get a CA COE every year? It is also required if they handle ammo.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...7.&lawCode=PEN


Being a licensed ammo vendor also practically requires you to keep inventory of EVERY ROUND coming and going, and to report to CA DOJ *any* missing ammo, in a timely manner. There are also storage requirements. There are no out of state companies who would do this. It will be a miracle if we have any in-state sellers doing this after a few years of living under this regime.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...3.&lawCode=PEN




Were it possible to become a licensed ammo vendor out of state, it would also require them to DROS all ammo, seemingly even ammo sold to people not in CA.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=PEN



It isn't happening. Out of state companies will not be licensed ammunition vendors.

I am not saying that they should apply with the state for a license or that it would be a bad move for them, but if they did . . .

[freedom_fighter]

True... either way TS-USA got me for another order today

[Erichp]

I hope they do straighten that out, I got that email, though it doesnt apply to me any longer I still had a WT* moment.
7/1 should be a very interesting day for retail folks as they try to sort out the how to. Hopefully it blows up gloriously and they realize they have to suspend the nonsense.
Best of luck ladies and gents.

[ARFrog]

Help me solve this riddle...

I have a CA COE with a 2020 termination date. Does the State's regulation for 7/1/2019 COE verification for ammo purchases and $1.00 charges constitute a novation of rights of my exisiting certificate and a double taxation situation? Why wouldn't the terms and conditions of my existing license be applicable until it renews?

The CA DOJ's website states the following:

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert-eligibility

Certificate of Eligibility
Home Firearms Certificate of Eligibility
What is a Certificate of Eligibility (COE)?

A “Certificate of Eligibility” certifies the Department of Justice (DOJ) has checked its records and determined the recipient is not prohibited from acquiring or possessing firearms at the time the firearms eligibility criminal background check was performed. A COE is a pre-requisite licensing/permit requirement for all prospective licensed firearms dealers, licensed ammunition vendors, manufacturers, certified instructors, gun show promoters, explosive permit holders, and other firearm related employment activities, including, effective January 1, 2018, any agent or employee of a vendor who handles, sells, or delivers firearms and ammunition. The initial COE application process includes a firearms eligibility criminal background check and issuance of a certificate, which is valid for one year. Thereafter, the COE must be renewed annually. A COE can be revoked, at anytime, if the COE holder becomes prohibited from owning/possessing firearms and ammunition.


The intent here is that the State already determines eligibility for possessing firearms and ammunition and is in receipt of funds for the background check. Why do they get a second "bite" of this apple?

[tommytt]

TS-USA sales will tank.

[vino68]

Originally Posted by paddyraid

I didn't get that email from TSUSA and I've been ordering from them for a long time. I really don't care anymore, though, since they started charging tax. I pretty much stopped ordering from them. They were always my go-to for ammo. There are still way too many places to order from that are not charging tax or shipping. Also, has anyone else noticed these places are charging 10.5% sales tax?!!! I emailed TSUSA and asked why they're charging more than the sales tax rate here in L.A. County and they had no go answer. F 'em!!!

Sales tax is not just based on county but city as well. My city is still 9.25% while the city next to me is 10.50% sales tax. Sounds like the address on your FFL is within the 10.50% sales tax district. Look it up here https://www.avalara.com/taxrates/en/...fornia/cities/
Also looks like Brownells will be charging sales tax soon. They are also using Avalara to update their records and system.

[LMT4ME]

Originally Posted by tommytt

TS-USA sales will tank.

No they won’t calif is the only state limiting ammo. Why I left one of many reasons

[Sousuke]

Originally Posted by LMT4ME

No they won’t calif is the only state limiting ammo. Why I left one of many reasons

I wouldn’t be surprised if CA didn’t account for at least 10 percent. You have to remember that the whole industry is in recession right now post trump election whereas CA has a lot of pent up demand.

[psun786]

Originally Posted by Chewy65

I am not saying that they should apply with the state for a license or that it would be a bad move for them, but if they did . . .

It is very likely that targetsports has CA ammo license otherwise they wouldn't collect sale tax on CA transactions.

[Mayor McRifle]

Originally Posted by psun786

It is very likely that targetsports has CA ammo license otherwise they wouldn't collect sale tax on CA transactions.

Knowledge is power: http://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/wayfair.htm

[ARFrog]

Originally Posted by psun786

It is very likely that targetsports has CA ammo license otherwise they wouldn't collect sale tax on CA transactions.

No, as noted in post # 60, this has to do with a Supreme Court decision last year that allows States to collect sales tax from Internet sales. So, don't blame the vendors.

Here is a link to more info:

https://smallbiztrends.com/2019/01/l...sales-tax.html

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by ARFrog

Help me solve this riddle...

I have a CA COE with a 2020 termination date. Does the State's regulation for 7/1/2019 COE verification for ammo purchases and $1.00 charges constitute a novation of rights of my exisiting certificate and a double taxation situation? Why wouldn't the terms and conditions of my existing license be applicable until it renews?

The CA DOJ's website states the following:

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert-eligibility

Certificate of Eligibility
Home Firearms Certificate of Eligibility
What is a Certificate of Eligibility (COE)?

A “Certificate of Eligibility” certifies the Department of Justice (DOJ) has checked its records and determined the recipient is not prohibited from acquiring or possessing firearms at the time the firearms eligibility criminal background check was performed. A COE is a pre-requisite licensing/permit requirement for all prospective licensed firearms dealers, licensed ammunition vendors, manufacturers, certified instructors, gun show promoters, explosive permit holders, and other firearm related employment activities, including, effective January 1, 2018, any agent or employee of a vendor who handles, sells, or delivers firearms and ammunition. The initial COE application process includes a firearms eligibility criminal background check and issuance of a certificate, which is valid for one year. Thereafter, the COE must be renewed annually. A COE can be revoked, at anytime, if the COE holder becomes prohibited from owning/possessing firearms and ammunition.


The intent here is that the State already determines eligibility for possessing firearms and ammunition and is in receipt of funds for the background check. Why do they get a second "bite" of this apple?

The COE verification check is to check that the COE being presented is valid and not a forgery/counterfeit.
The cost for this verification check is a $1 fee. [PC 30370(e)]

[RoundEye]

So, to summarize if you have an FFL03 + COE post 07/01/2019, the following applies:

1. Purchases from an ammunition vendor will require a $1 COE check.
   
2. Still Exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for mail order purchases. However it’s up to individual businesses to decide if they want to honor the exemption.
   
3. Still exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for FTF ammunition sales (PPTs).
   
4. Still exempt from the ammunition import restrictions (buying out of state and returning.
   
5. Not Exempt if purchasing from a California Licensed Ammunition Vendor.
   

[Hinnerk]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

So, to summarize if you have an FFL03 + COE post 07/01/2019, the following applies:

1. Purchases from an ammunition vendor will require a $1 COE check.
   
   
   
2. No longer exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for mail order purchases. You'll have to order online have it sent to an Ammunition Vendor, and during pick up they'll process the $1 COE check.
   
   
   
3. Still exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for FTF ammunition sales (PPTs).
   
   
   
4. Still exempt from the ammunition import restrictions (buying out of state and returning?
   

Once confirmed to be correct, I'll update the above accordingly.

Your second item is false.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by Hinnerk

Your second item is false.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

The 04/18 Regs Published by the CADOJ remove the exemption from all FFLs, and only exempt "businesses". Were these not adopted by the OAL?

Originally Posted by ronlglock

Well guess what. In their 4/18/19 rule making, the DOJ killed off a few exemptions:

(a) The following types of identification will properly identify an individual who is exempt pursuant to Penal Code section 30352, subdivision (e) from Department approval to purchase or transfer ammunition.
(1) A valid Federal Firearms License.
(2) An authorized law enforcement representative’s written authorization from the
head of the agency authorizing the ammunition purchase or transfer.
(3) A centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensee’s Department issued certificate indicating the individual is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees.
(4) A sworn state, or local peace officer’s credential and verifiable written certification from the head of the agency.
(5) A sworn federal law enforcement officer’s credential and verifiable written certification from the head of the agency.
(1) An ammunition vendor shall present a valid Ammunition Vendor License issued pursuant to Penal Code section 30385.
(2) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department shall present a Department-issued Listing Acknowledgement Letter indicating the individual is currently on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees.
(3) A gunsmith shall present a valid Type 01 Federal Firearms License.
(4) A wholesaler shall present a valid Type 01 Federal Firearms License.
(5) A manufacturer of firearms shall present a valid Type 07 Federal FirearmsLicense.
(6) An importer of firearms or ammunition shall present a valid Type 08 Federal Firearms License.
(7) A manufacturer of ammunition shall present a valid Type 06 Federal Firearms License.
(8) An authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state or federal government shall present written authorization from the head of the agency authorizing the ammunition purchase or transfer, as described by Penal Code section 30352, subdivision (e)(7).

[Hinnerk]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

The 04/18 Regs Published by the CADOJ remove the exemption from all FFLs, and only exempt "businesses". Were these not adopted by the OAL?

I might not be reading your post correctly. You have not defined "ammunition vendor". An outside vendor can be used who is not licensed by the state of California and there is no requirement that the transaction be performed through an instate licensed vendor. Direct shipment can occur. Also, I have read nothing in the proposed regs or in the law preventing an instate licensed vendor direct shipping after doing the required check.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by Hinnerk

I might not be reading your post correctly. You have not defined "ammunition vendor". An outside vendor can be used who is not licensed by the state of California and there is no requirement that the transaction be performed through an instate licensed vendor. Direct shipment can occur. Also, I have read nothing in the proposed regs or in the law preventing an instate licensed vendor direct shipping after doing the required check.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

My apologies. I meant to infer that an ammunition Vendor is one who is licensed by the state of California to sell ammunition.

[MountainLion]

So, if I understand this correctly, a person with CoE and FFL03 (who is not a LEO) can order from a directly from an out-of-state ammunition vendor, and have the ammunition shipped to their home, without any background check or in-state processing. Right?

[Mayor McRifle]

Originally Posted by MountainLion

So, if I understand this correctly, a person with CoE and FFL03 (who is not a LEO) can order from a directly from an out-of-state ammunition vendor, and have the ammunition shipped to their home, without any background check or in-state processing. Right?

Right.

[vino68]

Originally Posted by MountainLion

So, if I understand this correctly, a person with CoE and FFL03 (who is not a LEO) can order from a directly from an out-of-state ammunition vendor, and have the ammunition shipped to their home, without any background check or in-state processing. Right?

As above, correct. But as the host said in yesterday's webinar, the vendor may choose to not honor the exemption. Also, if you have a COE, you will need to know your COE number for in-store purchases. As there are 3 (?) types of background checks, you will need to tell the in-store personal which one you want done.

I recommend keeping a digital copy (of the COE) on your phone and/or cloud storage and make sure the container is encrypted. This way you can pull it down when you need it. Also encrypt your mobile devices. For the troglodytes, keep a printed copy handy when you go in for a purchase.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by psun786

It is very likely that targetsports has CA ammo license otherwise they wouldn't collect sale tax on CA transactions.

Every vendor who ships more than $500k/yr of any goods into CA from any state, collects and remits CA sales tax. It doesn’t matter if it is stereos, roller skates, or ammo.

AB147 https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/wayfair.htm

On April 25, 2019, California passed Assembly Bill No. (AB) 147 (Stats. 2019, ch. 5). AB 147 amended Revenue and Taxation Code (RTC) section 6203 to require retailers located outside of California (remote sellers) to register with the California Department of Tax and Fee Administration (CDTFA) and collect California use tax if, during the preceding or current calendar year, the total combined sales of tangible personal property for delivery in California by the retailer and all persons related to the retailer exceed $500,000. A person is related to a retailer if they have a relationship with the retailer described in section 267(b) of title 26 of the United States Code and the related regulations. The new collection requirement is operative April 1, 2019, and supersedes our prior direction regarding the use tax collection requirements for out-of-state retailers pursuant to RTC section 6203 and the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. (Wayfair) (Dock. No. 17-494) (see Special Notice L-565).

Collecting CA tax has nothing to do with an ammo license.

Repeat after me: no out of state entity in their right mind will have a CA ammo vendor license. It is not required, it gains them nothing and risks them everything.

It simply isn’t happening.


Someone PM me when Target Sports figures out what they’re doing. Until then I will be ordering from Brownells direct to my door, and avoiding these FUD threads like the plague.

[Mustard]

Suppose i get an FFL 03 and COE. Can I buy ammo outside of CA, and bring it back into CA with me?

The "buy from brick and mortar store in CA" and "buy online and ship to door" scenarios have been thoroughly covered, but I haven't seen my scenario.

[ARFrog]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Suppose i get an FFL 03 and COE. Can I buy ammo outside of CA, and bring it back into CA with me?

The "buy from brick and mortar store in CA" and "buy online and ship to door" scenarios have been thoroughly covered, but I haven't seen my scenario.

If you have a FFL03 and COE you are exempt and can import (bring back) ammo. See posts #30, #36 and #46 above

[caarcher]

I received an email from Target Sports USA yesterday. Great news!! they are now honoring the FFL03+COE exemption and are shipping to CA again.

https://mailchi.mp/targetsportsusa/w...1?e=db13bdd67f

[anelson]

Yesterday I registered for Target Sports and uploaded documents (FFL03+COE) and they shipped today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MuayThaiJJ]

Can a private seller in CA send a FFL03/COE holder ammo direct?

[glockwise2000]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

So, to summarize if you have an FFL03 + COE post 07/01/2019, the following applies:

1. Purchases from an ammunition vendor will require a $1 COE check.
   
2. Still Exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for mail order purchases. However it’s up to individual businesses to decide if they want to honor the exemption.
   
3. Still exempt from the Ammunition Vendor requirement for FTF ammunition sales (PPTs).
   
4. Still exempt from the ammunition import restrictions (buying out of state and returning.
   
5. Not Exempt if purchasing from a California Licensed Ammunition Vendor.
   

Is this still true? If I have an 03 + COE, I could just cash and carry for FTF transaction? And if a buyer has an 03 + COE they could just cash and carry too without going through FFL/ammo vendor?

[MuayThaiJJ]

Yep

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by glockwise2000

Is this still true? If I have an 03 + COE, I could just cash and carry for FTF transaction? And if a buyer has an 03 + COE they could just cash and carry too without going through FFL/ammo vendor?

If you have a valid C&R 03-FFL and valid COE, then you are only exempt when you are acquiring ammo.

It does not make you exempt if you are transferring (selling/loaning/etc) ammo to a non-exempt person.

It also does not exempt you from the amount of ammo you can legally transfer within 30 days.