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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

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  #41  
Old 01-24-2019, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gleam View Post
Then there is blunt reality. I've been in CA nearly 30 years now and have yet to find an FFL that will sell the ROA without requiring a 4473/DROS and I've crossed a lot of gun store thresholds. They all seem to interpret as above due to ATF telling them this. Not saying it's right as many an FFl have gotten things wrong, but they most often follow what their ATF rep tells them to do, right or wrong.
Some gun shops may just have their own policy in that regard. If I was going to buy a cap & ball replica revolver, I likely would not bother with a local gun shop. I would just purchase online.
Years ago I purchased a antique rifle from a gun shop. I was told to fill out a 4473 because although the salesman affirmed rifle was a antique, the store owner wanted to play it safe

Last edited by sakosf; 01-24-2019 at 9:49 PM..
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  #42  
Old 01-25-2019, 3:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
If I can get a non-FFL question in...

Do most people use real BP or one of the substitutes?
I like the real stuff. Goex 3F. I use a fired .44 Magnum case as a measuring cup (approximately 35 grains 3F), a lubbed felt wad, and a roundball.

Some people use Pyrodex because they cannot get the real stuff. Pyrodex is treated the same as smokeless powder as far as storage laws go, so it's easier for shops to carry it. Shops have to store real BP in its own container (cannot just leave it on a shelf like you can with Pyrodex) so many places don't bother to carry it. Another reason some people use Pyrodex is because they don't like the "rotten egg" sulfur smell of the real stuff.

Don't know anyone who uses 777 but I am told you can get more velocity out of 777 than you can with the real stuff.

Happy shooting
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2019, 6:24 AM
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Thanks, Beetle.
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  #44  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Beetle Bailey View Post
I like the real stuff.
it is still the best option. no one has yet to make a substitute that is truly equal to actual blackpowder. some are close, and close enough if you have laws or supply challenges it's not the end of the world.

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...some people use Pyrodex is because they don't like the "rotten egg" sulfur smell of the real stuff.
the rotten egg smell....that's a feature :P
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  #45  
Old 01-26-2019, 6:02 AM
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it is still the best option. no one has yet to make a substitute that is truly equal to actual blackpowder. some are close, and close enough if you have laws or supply challenges it's not the end of the world.



the rotten egg smell....that's a feature :P
I completely agree! It is a positive part of the experience. The look of the smoke that hangs in the air, the low rumble of the boom, and the demonic sulfur smell all add to the fun of shooting BP
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  #46  
Old 01-26-2019, 6:45 AM
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I like the smell of real black. It's the fake stuff that smells like a hazardous waste fire...
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gleam View Post
Then there is blunt reality. I've been in CA nearly 30 years now and have yet to find an FFL that will sell the ROA without requiring a 4473/DROS and I've crossed a lot of gun store thresholds. They all seem to interpret as above due to ATF telling them this. Not saying it's right as many an FFl have gotten things wrong, but they most often follow what their ATF rep tells them to do, right or wrong.

I know of at least 2 where they said I could buy it and walk out the door same day.

I didn't have the cash those times, so I didn't buy them, but- there are LGS's that will allow cash and carry on ROA.

We need clarity here.
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2019, 8:51 PM
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777 burns at a higher pressure than BP.

Would I worry about it in a ROA? No.

The conversion cylinders shoot well in these. Loading is slow, as expected.
You cannot cut a loading gate because of the way the hand and crane works. There isn't space for one.
The ROA is 100% designed as a BP firearm. You can't convert it to a proper gate fed SA the way you could a Remington.

-Dave
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2019, 8:52 PM
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BTW- I had the owner of American Gun works in Glendale tell me I had to DROS a Swiss Vetterli they had there.

Pre-1898. Shoots an unobtainable .41 Rimfire cartridge.

Needless to say, I walked.
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  #50  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:11 PM
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Sorry for necroposting, but this has me curious, after seeing some ROA at a LGS.

I understand the views on the ROA and applicable law- specifically 18.I.44.921.a.16 [a and b].

However, it is part c and other guns that got me thinking.

c says:
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
IF the post regarding replaceable centerfire cylinders fits the breechblock element for ROA, it seems that it would also apply to Italian made percussion revolvers in the 1858 rem pattern or 1860 Army [or other ones that cylinders are made for].

After all, if this applies to ROA [breechblock], then it logically applies to other percussion revolvers with the same capability- wouldn't it?


Some might point to the muzzleloader term in part c and say the revolvers are not muzzle loaders.

IF that is true, then the replaceable breechblock identified in part c would ALSO not be applicable to the ROA, as it is the same loading system.

It seems that, if this provision applies to the ROA, it applies to all of the other models.

Or, is it the 'firearm frame converted' aspect that makes it apply to ROA but not the others?


All I can think is that the ATF or CalDOJ will always look for the most restrictive possible interpretation.

[time for a Lyman Plains single shot, I guess- saw one of those too.]
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  #51  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
If I can get a non-FFL question in...

Do most people use real BP or one of the substitutes?

BP only for me in all my front stuffers. Don't have a Ruger, but if I did it would be BP also.
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2019, 6:48 AM
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This has come up before on the Ruger OA vs. a copy conversion. I don't think there is a definitive answer. On one hand it's up to the dealer's interpretation on the Ruger. Some say it can be easily be converted to a centerfire and designed from Blackhawk parts, and other say it was designed to be a black powder gun only. On the copy/conversion issue I can see your point and have wondered about that myself?? The copy gun was designed after a black powder revolver, and stamped BP only. However they can be modified to shoot 45LC just by swapping out the cylinder. It's not against the law to own or ship a BP copy, and it not against the law to sell or ship a cylinder. It's when the cylinder is swapped out for the 45LC that things get dicey. But even then the gun will only shoot 6 times.. just like the BP cylinder... and it's a pain in the *** to reload. Probably slower than to reload BP...?? It is a pain R&Ring the cylinder... IMHO
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  #53  
Old 06-13-2019, 8:27 PM
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Bczrx- that law is to prevent someone from taking a centerfire modern revolver, stuffing a BP cylinder in it and calling it an antique.

The ROA and CB replicas are designed from the ground up as BP guns. You cant take a blackhawk cylinder, drop it into an ROA and have it fire- it's not in any way a part swapped blackhawk.

If you permanently mod the frame (i.e. loading gate cut) then it gets murky. This is not a concern with a ROA- the way the hand engages the cylinder doesn't leave any room for a loading gate. It has ZERO compatibility with the blackhawk system.

Some other company that happens to make some random part to convert it would seem to be irrelevant in this case.

-Dave
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  #54  
Old 06-13-2019, 8:28 PM
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..and gun stores spout a lot of ignorant garbage.

American guns in Glendale wanted a dros transfer for a swiss vetterli- in the original rimfire caliber no less, which is unobtainable.
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