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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 06-10-2021, 7:43 PM
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Default Duty to show LTC to off duty officer

Hello

I am asking for a buddy.

My buddy is a new usher for his local church and asked the priest if he could carry while doing his duties as an usher. He has a LTC from LASD. The priest informed him that he could only carry while attending church on his own time but not as an usher. Another usher who was nearby over heard the conversation and happened to be an off duty police officer from Arcadia. The off duty officer made a comment, "I better not catch you carrying while working as an usher." My buddy found this to be a little strange.

Obviously my buddy is not going to carry while performing his duties as an usher.

The question is what obligation does my buddy have as a regular church attendee to inform this off duty officer regarding Carrying (LTC) while at church?

Also, if questioned by this off duty officer while attending church with his family does my buddy have any obligation to tell this officer anything?

Thanks in advance,
RR
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2021, 7:45 PM
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"Let me catch you"? Forget that douche.
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Old 06-10-2021, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
The question is what obligation does my buddy have as a regular church attendee to inform this off duty officer regarding Carrying (LTC) while at church?
No. If he can avoid the officer entirely, that’d be ideal. Is it for certain he’s off-duty or just some jailer for Arcadia?

Quote:
Also, if questioned by this off duty officer while attending church with his family does my buddy have any obligation to tell this officer anything?
Unless in uniform, no. Again, who’s to say he’s an actual cop. If he’s off-duty, without presenting a badge, then it’s like any Joe-shmo on the street asking if you’re carrying.
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Old 06-10-2021, 8:39 PM
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Isnít being an usher a volunteer position at a church?
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Old 06-10-2021, 8:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexo98 View Post
Isnít being an usher a volunteer position at a church?
Correct he is a volunteer
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Old 06-10-2021, 8:48 PM
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He shouldn't have asked in the first place. He has a permit to CONCEAL. No laws against that. Also, requirement to mention permit to LEO in most counties is only if you are contacted officially.
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Old 06-10-2021, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
Hello

I am asking for a buddy.

My buddy is a new usher for his local church and asked the priest if he could carry while doing his duties as an usher. He has a LTC from LASD. The priest informed him that he could only carry while attending church on his own time but not as an usher. Another usher who was nearby over heard the conversation and happened to be an off duty police officer from Arcadia. The off duty officer made a comment, "I better not catch you carrying while working as an usher." My buddy found this to be a little strange.

Obviously my buddy is not going to carry while performing his duties as an usher.

The question is what obligation does my buddy have as a regular church attendee to inform this off duty officer regarding Carrying (LTC) while at church?

Also, if questioned by this off duty officer while attending church with his family does my buddy have any obligation to tell this officer anything?

Thanks in advance,
RR
"
The off duty officer made a comment, "I better not catch you carrying while working as an usher."

The comment was " as an usher" thats the difference. The cop as an usher is affirming that your friend cannot carry as an usher. It has nothing to do with him being a cop.
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Old 06-10-2021, 11:07 PM
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Disclaimer, I'm not an attorney and I don't even play one on TV, so take whatever info I or any other non attorney says and consult a licensed attorney before acting on it.

That being said, private property can have their own rules about firearms on premise. Priest probably has that rule about no ccw while "working" as an usher for liability reasons.

If there was nothing posted prior about ccw at your friend's church, I like Loopwell's advice about not mentioning you have ccw, since even though private property can have rules about no firearms on premise, it is in most (not all) cases not a crime in itself. It can turn into a crime of trespassing if the rules are posted or if you were informed by the property owner or management or his/her designee.

In this case your friend was informed by the Priest, which wouldn't have happened if he didn't mention his ccw status.

As for the off duty cop, if he is in fact a sworn officer, he can enforce the laws while off duty if he/she sees a crime occur. Most won't take action off duty now days if it isn't a big crime or if there's no risk of life or limb, but that is up to the individual officer.

Since he witnessed the Priest advise your friend that ccw on premise isn't allowed while "working" as an usher, if the cop sees he is carrying, he might have PC for a detention/arrest/cite for trespassing. I don't know of many cops that would take action off duty for something as minor as a trespassing violation, so he was probably blowing smoke.

I don't know of any laws that state your friend has to show his LTC to an off duty cop while attending services; however, if he is lawfully detaining your friend for a criminal violation, even a minor infraction, I suggest anybody with ccw declare it and provide the LTC upon request.

Last edited by ptmn; 06-10-2021 at 11:10 PM..
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Old 06-11-2021, 4:39 AM
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I would stop volunteering and continue as a member of the church if it meant the difference between carrying and not carrying.
As a soft target..I'd be more concerned with me and my family's safety first and foremost.
It's kinda funny how LE from the smaller, not so busy depts posture the most.
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Old 06-11-2021, 5:08 AM
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Thanks everyone for the input. I will pass this info to my friend.
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Old 06-11-2021, 7:48 AM
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If your "buddy" can't ask for himself, he is not up to the responsibility that goes with a CCW. Sheesh.
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Old 06-11-2021, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loopwell View Post
He shouldn't have asked in the first place. He has a permit to CONCEAL. No laws against that. Also, requirement to mention permit to LEO in most counties is only if you are contacted officially.
^ this. Never should have brought it up.
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Old 06-11-2021, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeepergeo View Post
If your "buddy" can't ask for himself, he is not up to the responsibility that goes with a CCW. Sheesh.
maybe his buddy doesn't want to join this site just to ask a question, and then get hammered about being possible DOJ or other person trying a sting operation like tends to happen here these days since he has no posts
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Old 06-11-2021, 8:13 AM
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I'd have told him to mind his own business and not let the weight of that badge drop his trousers!

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Old 06-11-2021, 10:41 AM
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Tell him concealed is concealed and to take up Golf on Sundays.
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:27 AM
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As I understand it, concealed means actions AND words. I do not tell anyone when I'm carrying, period.
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
My buddy is a new usher for his local church and asked the priest if he could carry while doing his duties as an usher. He has a LTC from LASD. The priest informed him that he could only carry while attending church on his own time but not as an usher.
Many churches have a volunteer group of armed members that practice/prepare in the event of an active shooter. It's a good idea for a couple reasons, one of which being if something happens hopefully everyone knows who the good guys are and they don't shoot each other by mistake. Church shootings have unfortunately happened and the priest may be in denial. I would suggest someone talk with the priest or someone else in charge about organizing a volunteer group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
Another usher who was nearby over heard the conversation and happened to be an off duty police officer from Arcadia. The off duty officer made a comment, "I better not catch you carrying while working as an usher."
The guy sounds like an ***.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
The question is what obligation does my buddy have as a regular church attendee to inform this off duty officer regarding Carrying (LTC) while at church? Also, if questioned by this off duty officer while attending church with his family does my buddy have any obligation to tell this officer anything?
None and none assuming said officer is off duty (not in uniform), even if your friend's LTC has a restriction that he must disclose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptmn View Post
As for the off duty cop, if he is in fact a sworn officer, he can enforce the laws while off duty if he/she sees a crime occur.
I can't speak for Arcadia, but a number of agencies have department policies that contain verbiage like this: "Initiating law enforcement action while off-duty is generally discouraged. Officers should not attempt to initiate enforcement action when witnessing minor crimes, such as suspected intoxicated drivers, reckless driving or minor property crimes. Such incidents should be promptly reported to the appropriate law enforcement agency."

So again, that officer sounds like an ***.
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2021, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
maybe his buddy doesn't want to join this site just to ask a question, and then get hammered about being possible DOJ or other person trying a sting operation like tends to happen here these days since he has no posts
Just an FYI

My friend does not have a Calguns account at this time. He says he will join soon.

Last edited by RockeroRic; 06-11-2021 at 4:08 PM.. Reason: Grammar
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2021, 1:05 PM
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Personally I'd find a new church.
At a church I used to attend an elderly female member gave me a surprise hug and just happened to feel my gun.

She smiled and said "I love Good men with guns just like my late husband."

So I thought everything was cool but within a few weeks way too many people knew, I was asked to join the security team and the Minister made a comment from the pulpit (friendly but way out of line)

I have not been back
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Old 06-11-2021, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Personally I'd find a new church.
This. Very seriously this. If the pastor and the "off duty cop" are in your buddy's face over his having a firearm while "working" then they aren't concerned for the welfare of "the flock" and are instead focusing on irrelevant things that are none of their GD business.

So tell your friend to find a new house of worship AND to shut the heck up.
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  #21  
Old 06-11-2021, 7:21 PM
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Interesting situation.

When your buddy is working as an usher, the church may likely assume liability for his actions while he's working. Asking for permission was probably the respectful thing to do. This may also not be a matter of the personal feelings of the pastor but simply whether their insurance covers the actions of armed ushers. Now it certainly must be possible to get insurance that would cover this as other churches seem to have that worked out. But this church may not be there yet.

The off duty officer from a different jurisdiction is a bit challenging. There's always going to be an issue of credibility with an off duty, out of uniform cop. I mean you can order badges off the internet. But given that it's church and he's part of the congregation, he's likely legit. Why he would insert himself in that type of situation while off duty doesn't make sense to me but he may be active in the church leadership, and feels territorial about it, and/or was backing up the pastor...in a "big penis swinging" kinda way.

But in terms of what the cop could do about it, probably not much more than ask the dude to leave under trespassing laws, as that is likely the only laws broken. But he could certainly make trouble by reporting the guy to his IA.

If it were me, I'd at least try to talk to the pastor...alone...and see if he was receptive to the idea of implementing an armed response team. If he was against this, I would either stop being an usher so I wouldn't have to disarm, or go find another church. But at least give a shot (PUN intended) of trying to convert (PUN intended) the pastor, before you leave.
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  #22  
Old 06-11-2021, 9:03 PM
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If he's off-duty, I'm not sure if that would be considered "official contact" if he's not on the clock/in uniform.
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Old 06-11-2021, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalBusa View Post
^ this. Never should have brought it up.
100%

And if he was going to bring it up, it should *never* have been in earshot of anyone else.

Lots for this guy to learn about CCW. The first rule of CCW Club is....


Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Personally I'd find a new church.
And this ^^
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:35 AM
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I'm on the find a new church train on this one.
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:02 AM
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Honesty

I would do your best to befriend your that officer.
They obviously have a lot in common - evidenced by both attending and volunteering at the same church.

Some folks had zero gun experience and only learned from the PD.


Get to know him. Ask for him to join you to lunch with family. Weeks later ask him to join you and your significant other to go shooting.


He might never become a friend. Well not a true friend.

But he probably will respect the heck out of you and realize that it’s good you are armed at church.
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Old 06-12-2021, 2:38 PM
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Smile update

Went shooting today at Burro Canyon.

After discussing this situation with my friend the best course of action would be to not disclose you have a LTC.

I have a bit of a correction: Turns out the Head Usher was very concerned with my friend carrying while being an usher.(due to liability issues for the Church) The Head Usher mentioned " _______, LEO better not catch you carrying while working as an usher."

So it wasn't the LEO who was giving my buddy trouble it was the Head Usher.

Since then my buddy has spoken to the LEO and he could care less if my buddy has an LTC. They get along great possibly because my friend is an ex Marine and the LEO is pro 2nd amendment.

Thanks for all the great input. (I'll probably be deleting this thread by Monday)

RR

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Old 06-12-2021, 4:27 PM
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If he’s not in uniform, and you’re not in the act of an actual crime, he can F right off. He’s a civilian just as we are
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Old 06-12-2021, 4:30 PM
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You should leave the thread up and not delete it; should someone else run into a similar issue.

You can have a mod just close it.
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Old 06-12-2021, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
You should leave the thread up and not delete it; should someone else run into a similar issue.

You can have a mod just close it.
Ok sounds good
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Old 06-12-2021, 4:50 PM
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Another thought is whether the church has a school on the same property. Remember, your CCW is not valid on any school ground.
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Old 06-13-2021, 3:55 AM
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I think your buddy did the right thing for asking.
Before getting my ccw I asked many church leaders at my church and a few others that I help at .
Only one said I couldn't carry while I was there..
My Pastor said he would love for me to carry.
Turns out with written permission from the property owner you can carry without a permit...
I was carrying before I even got mine..
We now have a few of us who carry every day..
I'm head of children ministry.
I was at the one church that blamed me from carrying when a lady showed up with a gun .
She pointed at a few people including me.
She pulled the trigger but luckily it was empty..
I now have permission to carry at that church..
I personally would never attended a church that doesn't do background checks or allow me to carry after getting to know me.
As head of children ministry and church security I want to know everyone that carries in church.
Unfortunately that is impossible
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Old 06-13-2021, 3:57 AM
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Concealed is concealed and no one should ever know that you are carrying. Don't ever bring it up and it won't be a problem. Sounds like a rookie mistake to even bring it up in the first place!
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Old 06-13-2021, 4:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gymtech View Post
Turns out with written permission from the property owner you can carry without a permit...
I was carrying before I even got mine..
A glance at the relative PC and exemptions doesn’t show me anything that says “with written permission” you can CC without a license.

Maybe I’m missing something…
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Old 06-13-2021, 5:03 PM
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None.

Also, if it is not posted and you are not told not to, why the hell are you bringing it up?

You carry and keep your mouth shut about it.
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Old 06-13-2021, 8:21 PM
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Between the security team, pastoral staff, off duty LEOís and everybody and his mother with a CCW in our congregation, Iím way more concerned about a friendly fire situation if a bad guy ever got stupid at church.
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Old 06-13-2021, 9:23 PM
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Hope this church has No school on property
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockeroRic View Post
Hello



I am asking for a buddy.



My buddy is a new usher for his local church and asked the priest if he could carry while doing his duties as an usher. He has a LTC from LASD. The priest informed him that he could only carry while attending church on his own time but not as an usher. Another usher who was nearby over heard the conversation and happened to be an off duty police officer from Arcadia. The off duty officer made a comment, "I better not catch you carrying while working as an usher." My buddy found this to be a little strange.



Obviously my buddy is not going to carry while performing his duties as an usher.



The question is what obligation does my buddy have as a regular church attendee to inform this off duty officer regarding Carrying (LTC) while at church?



Also, if questioned by this off duty officer while attending church with his family does my buddy have any obligation to tell this officer anything?



Thanks in advance,

RR
Like others, I think your buddy should have not said anything. Concealed is concealed. If he ever brandished, intentionally or not, then the church leadership can express their desires one way or another after that event. If he was a paid employee I think it's right to ask, but as a volunteer, his carry status shouldn't matter unless his volunteer duties include acting as an armed guard for the church.

Where this likely matters most to your buddy is insurance. When researching for ccw "insurance" I found many of them won't cover a private CCL holder for self defense when you are acting officially as an armed guard for the church, regardless of whether you are a volunteer or paid employee. The church would need to provide coverage in that case. If you are just a church member that happens to carry, then you're covered if an incident goes down at church. I think volunteering as an usher wouldn't impact his coverage.

"Cop" sounds like a jerk. I would ignore and avoid him. I don't think there are any requirements to declare anything to an off duty officer.

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