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  #161  
Old 11-07-2018, 3:06 PM
Califpatriot Califpatriot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
intents to what?

add a gas tube, which is allowed, and adding a pistol brace, which is also allowed for pistols.

and if you are inferring my intent to shoulder, BATF even released their opinion that shouldering a pistol brace is ok. and CADOJ has no opinions on shoulder a brace.

i am even going to install a mag locking device to conform to the new AW regulations/law. unless the version franklin installs is easy to use / legal for semi-auto use, i may not even need to buy my own. just a different rear pin setup that will capture the upper when it is open.

where in my post has anything illegal been stated?
I'm talking about the gas tube. As I've said here and elsewhere, I think it's legal. Others have suggested it may not be. The recent notice from DOJ suggests that they may not consider it legal under the unsafe handgun manufacturing prohibition
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  #162  
Old 11-07-2018, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontWorryScro View Post
So I know it was stated these were being lined up for distributors in the coming weeks but I am able to add to cart on the website and get my payment method in order to complete sale. Is this working as intended?
We encourage dealer and distributor orders, but if you're dealer won't stock it, you can purchase off of our website, and we will ship it to your designated FFL. Your local dealer can probably provide you the best pricing.
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  #163  
Old 11-07-2018, 3:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
I'm talking about the gas tube. As I've said here and elsewhere, I think it's legal. Others have suggested it may not be. The recent notice from DOJ suggests that they may not consider it legal under the unsafe handgun manufacturing prohibition
may is not a legal standing.

so until the CA legislature comes out with a law that specifically says "you cannot add a gas tube to ar pistols to modify them to semi-auto status after their sale" i don't care what the opinions are of anyone else.

or i can install a separate pistol upper then. no law on the books now that says you can't swap uppers on pistol lowers.
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  #164  
Old 11-07-2018, 3:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
We encourage dealer and distributor orders, but if you're dealer won't stock it, you can purchase off of our website, and we will ship it to your designated FFL. Your local dealer can probably provide you the best pricing.
Good to know. Thanks. I'll probably wait a while so I can hear out all the arguments about legalities and compliance in regards to altering the gun after purchase before I make a move.
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  #165  
Old 11-07-2018, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DontWorryScro View Post
Good to know. Thanks. I'll probably wait a while so I can hear out all the arguments about legalities and compliance in regards to altering the gun after purchase before I make a move.
Two things on this:
1. We went the extra mile to test the Pistol for the Roster so that our customers would know with certainty that it was legal.
2. While I cannot provide legal advice or encourage anyone to modify their firearm, I can say this... CADOJ was going to place a warning on our Roster listing like they did with previous models. However, I had a constructive dialog with CADOJ staff where we discussed that the Franklin Armory Pistol was certified not-unsafe, and therefore by definition could not be unsafe. The recent warning posted on the website specifically relates to "Single Shot Pistols." If they meant for that stipulation to apply to certified "not-unsafe" rostered pistols, don't you think they would have stated as much especially after I just discussed this with them?

My interpretation of that timeline is that CADOJ is trying to discourage SSE in favor of Rostered firearms.
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  #166  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:00 AM
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Doj just issued a bulletin to Dealers saying that modification to bolt action or single shot exempt pistols is considered manufacturing
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  #167  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:14 AM
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Source for this?


And can you obtain a copy of bulletin and post it?
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  #168  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
Doh just issued a bulletin to Dealers saying that modification to bolt action or single shot exempt pistols is considered manufacturing
I believe you are mistaken, unless they had more than one DES post. I have a copy of the DES post that went out earlier this week. It notes "Single Shot Pistols" just like the public notice that can be found at the top of the Roster.
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  #169  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:38 AM
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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
I believe you are mistaken, unless they had more than one DES post. I have a copy of the DES post that went out earlier this week. It notes "Single Shot Pistols" just like the public notice that can be found at the top of the Roster.
That may be right, I’ll have to look over the bulletin again. I’ll post when I can.

EDIT: Franklin Armory is correct in that the bulletin does specifically mention single shot pistols. However, my concern would be whether DOJ also interprets Franklin’s new exempt pistol to be included in this interpretation. Photo to follow.
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  #170  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:49 AM
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Bulletin attached within post
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (85.6 KB, 91 views)
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  #171  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
That may be right, I’ll have to look over the bulletin again. I’ll post when I can.
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show....php?t=1488286

this thread has a photo of the letter.

it only states Single Shot Exemption pistols being modified.

and it only states that it may violate AW laws CA Penal Code 30515 by modifying the SSE pistol.

and we only have to worry about this part:
Quote:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:

(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.

(B) A second handgrip.

(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.

(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
so as long as one makes sure after modifying your SSE pistol, you don't also violate the AW laws, it is legal. hence the use of the word "May". the only issue i see is the handguard. since i'm not sure if the CADOJ considers that to be a "barrel shroud". but then again, they didn't have issues with all the rifle caliber pistols that had handguards before. or else all the people that that AR/AK/etc pistols that sent in their registration photos would all have created "assault weapons"

and actually, now that i just noticed the threaded barrel part. Franklin Armory, can you offer a variant that has a target crown with no threading for those that may not want to deal with having to pin/weld a brake/compensator after purchase?
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  #172  
Old 11-08-2018, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show....php?t=1488286

this thread has a photo of the letter.

it only states Single Shot Exemption pistols being modified.

and it only states that it may violate AW laws CA Penal Code 30515 by modifying the SSE pistol.

and we only have to worry about this part:


so as long as one makes sure after modifying your SSE pistol, you don't also violate the AW laws, it is legal. hence the use of the word "May". the only issue i see is the handguard. since i'm not sure if the CADOJ considers that to be a "barrel shroud". but then again, they didn't have issues with all the rifle caliber pistols that had handguards before. or else all the people that that AR/AK/etc pistols that sent in their registration photos would all have created "assault weapons"
If you read further it also presents CA Penal Codes 31900-31910 and 32000(a) regarding ďmanufacturingĒ of an unsafe handgun.
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  #173  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
That may be right, Iíll have to look over the bulletin again. Iíll post when I can.

EDIT: Franklin Armory is correct in that the bulletin does specifically mention single shot pistols. However, my concern would be whether DOJ also interprets Franklinís new exempt pistol to be included in this interpretation. Photo to follow.
This is frustrating. We are producing a safe and legal product that is certified by the State. I can't get a higher level of state acceptance, yet I still have Calgunners afraid that CADOJ may make something up.

We have enough problems with the laws already on the books. Let's stop trying to invent new ones that don't exist.
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  #174  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show....php?t=1488286

this thread has a photo of the letter.

it only states Single Shot Exemption pistols being modified.

and it only states that it may violate AW laws CA Penal Code 30515 by modifying the SSE pistol.

and we only have to worry about this part:


so as long as one makes sure after modifying your SSE pistol, you don't also violate the AW laws, it is legal. hence the use of the word "May". the only issue i see is the handguard. since i'm not sure if the CADOJ considers that to be a "barrel shroud". but then again, they didn't have issues with all the rifle caliber pistols that had handguards before. or else all the people that that AR/AK/etc pistols that sent in their registration photos would all have created "assault weapons"

and actually, now that i just noticed the threaded barrel part. Franklin Armory, can you offer a variant that has a target crown with no threading for those that may not want to deal with having to pin/weld a brake/compensator after purchase?
It is legal to own a fixed magazine AR type pistol even if it has evil features. We sell the patented Drop-in Fixed Magazine (DFM) as a method to comply with the law. Since the magazine well is outside the pistol grip, there would not be a way to create a featureless AR.
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  #175  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:08 AM
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Just got off the phone with Franklin and ordered up a bunch of these for the shop! Really looking forward to my shipping notification!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
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  #176  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
It is legal to own a fixed magazine AR type pistol even if it has evil features. We sell the patented Drop-in Fixed Magazine (DFM) as a method to comply with the law. Since the magazine well is outside the pistol grip, there would not be a way to create a featureless AR.
Hey Franklin Armory, i'm not arguing against you on this.

your product has interested me in buying my first, and probably only ar pistol.

i also believe that adding the gas tube is completely legal as long as i follow the rules to not make an AW pistol.

i don't know why others here are that chicken. you got this thing submitted to the CADOJ, you even have a direct rep you talk to.
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  #177  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
This is frustrating. We are producing a safe and legal product that is certified by the State. I can't get a higher level of state acceptance, yet I still have Calgunners afraid that CADOJ may make something up.

We have enough problems with the laws already on the books. Let's stop trying to invent new ones that don't exist.
Iím not disagreeing with you. Nor am I saying that a law exists. What Iím saying is that their interpretation could be a cause for concern if they later interpret it to include this product. Obviously it is legal in its current configuration. However, Cal DOJís bulletin could be a cause for concern for people to convert them. Itís not the law that is on the books it is DOJís interpretation of the law that is concerning. We all know that they have interpreted law improperly before.
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  #178  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
If you read further it also presents CA Penal Codes 31900-31910 and 32000(a) regarding ďmanufacturingĒ of an unsafe handgun.
PEN 31900-31910 related to the drop safety requirement. so if FA got this on the roster, it is drop safe already.

PEN 32000(a) is [quote]
(a) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.[quote]

so if the gun is not unsafe as per FA and if one follows the rules to prevent creating an AW "pistol" when installing the gas tube, tell me what crazy legal jumping are you doing to think it is illegal to install a gas tube after you buy this from the FFL?
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
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  #179  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show....php?t=1488286

this thread has a photo of the letter.

it only states Single Shot Exemption pistols being modified.

and it only states that it may violate AW laws CA Penal Code 30515 by modifying the SSE pistol.

and we only have to worry about this part:


so as long as one makes sure after modifying your SSE pistol, you don't also violate the AW laws, it is legal. hence the use of the word "May". the only issue i see is the handguard. since i'm not sure if the CADOJ considers that to be a "barrel shroud". but then again, they didn't have issues with all the rifle caliber pistols that had handguards before. or else all the people that that AR/AK/etc pistols that sent in their registration photos would all have created "assault weapons"

and actually, now that i just noticed the threaded barrel part. Franklin Armory, can you offer a variant that has a target crown with no threading for those that may not want to deal with having to pin/weld a brake/compensator after purchase?
There's no way to make an AR pistol featureless (due to magazine location), so you need a fixed magazine

if you have a fixed magazine, you can have evil features
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  #180  
Old 11-08-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
It's a county mandate, not state. Every county is different. Breaking those rules isn't illegal, it just risks losing your permit if caught.

Also certain guns are impossible to list on the permit because of the restrictions, and I think (but not 100% sure) that it's illegal (by state law) to carry a weapon not listed on the permit.
My understanding is the second paragraph is much like the first. Carry something not on your permit, that permit became invalid the second you carried an unlisted weapon in public- at least for that weapon. CCW without a valid permit- so the consequence of that you face.

Last edited by NorCalBusa; 11-08-2018 at 11:00 AM..
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  #181  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
This is frustrating. We are producing a safe and legal product that is certified by the State. I can't get a higher level of state acceptance, yet I still have Calgunners afraid that CADOJ may make something up.

We have enough problems with the laws already on the books. Let's stop trying to invent new ones that don't exist.
I don't think that Calgunners are afraid of CADOJ making something up on your product in and of it self. It seems that most of them want to purchase this firearm and modify it to be a semi-auto pistol. They are concerned that if they do this (even with the CA compliant maglock) CADOJ will deem their modified manually operated pistol, now a gas operated pistol, an AW.
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  #182  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NorCalBusa View Post
My understanding is the second paragraph is much like the first. Carry something not on your permit, that permit became invalid the second you carried an unlisted weapon in public- at least for that weapon. CCW without a valid permit- so the consequence of that you face.
It doesn't invalidate the permit. But you can certainly expect your issuing agency to revoke your permit later.

Think of it like driving drunk. You have a driver's license, and it has the stipulation that you may not drive while intoxicated. If you get caught driving drunk, you likely will lose your license later when the DMV hears about it, but they can't charge you for driving without a license, because you did have a license at the time.
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  #183  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty1911 View Post
I don't think that Calgunners are afraid of CADOJ making something up on your product in and of it self. It seems that most of them want to purchase this firearm and modify it to be a semi-auto pistol. They are concerned that if they do this (even with the CA compliant maglock) CADOJ will deem their modified manually operated pistol, now a gas operated pistol, an AW.
Wait, so you are suggesting that CADOj will prosecute you for an AW violation for something that is not even an AW under state law? That does not even make sense.

Currently, you can legally own a non-AW, fixed magazine, semiautomatic, AR pistol. You can even buy a used AR pistol, so configured, via PPT.
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  #184  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:05 PM
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Why are you guys arguing about legality? Its on roster for now, so enjoy it. Im getting mine asap.
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  #185  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Wait, so you are suggesting that CADOj will prosecute you for an AW violation for something that is not even an AW under state law? That does not even make sense.

Currently, you can legally own a non-AW, fixed magazine, semiautomatic, AR pistol. You can even buy a used AR pistol, so configured, via PPT.
My concern wouldnít be triggering AW status. My concern would be the second paragraph regarding manufacturing an unsafe handgun. The scope of this paragraph isnít necessarily defined, therefore my concern would be people thinking they can simply buy this and add a gas tube to make it a semi-auto.
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  #186  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
My concern wouldnít be triggering AW status. My concern would be the second paragraph regarding manufacturing an unsafe handgun. The scope of this paragraph isnít necessarily defined, therefore my concern would be people thinking they can simply buy this and add a gas tube to make it a semi-auto.
So then take it to Nevada and do it, then bring it back. CA doesn't have jurisdiction to tell you what you can or can't do outside of CA.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:17 PM
Nickbowen5 Nickbowen5 is offline
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I’m not trying to argue the legality of the gun. Obviously it is listed now therefore it is legal to purchase. However, I am concerned about the prevent that may be set as a result of the bulletin posted by Cal DOJ. I also think it’s prudent to mention the possibility of converting this firearm into a semi-auto could result in legal issues. I hope this is not the case, but this is what seemed to be referenced by DOJ in the bulletin.
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  #188  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
So then take it to Nevada and do it, then bring it back. CA doesn't have jurisdiction to tell you what you can or can't do outside of CA.
That is what I was thinking as well.
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  #189  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nickbowen5 View Post
That is what I was thinking as well.
The gun itself isn't illegal to have, or even to import. Only the act of converting it is in question. Whether or not we think it's legal to do that act inside CA, there is no question that CA cannot govern actions people do in other states.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
This is frustrating. We are producing a safe and legal product that is certified by the State. I can't get a higher level of state acceptance, yet I still have Calgunners afraid that CADOJ may make something up.

We have enough problems with the laws already on the books. Let's stop trying to invent new ones that don't exist.
Yep. Bullet buttons became legal not by DOJ saying they are legal. They didn't become legal by way of a binding appellate decision, or by way of Agent Moreno or whatever his name was testifying in a case that a BB-ed rifle was fixed mag. They became legal because hundreds of thousands of California gun owners put them on their ARs and gun stores sold them. The gun community established facts on the ground that DOJ couldn't effectively contest without a new legislative scheme.

I understand the benefits of caution where things aren't crystal-clear, but sometimes it seems Calguns goes too far.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
there is no question that CA cannot govern actions people do in other states.
Nor does the unsafe handgun statute purport to do so. It's very clear it only applies "in this State".
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
There's no way to make an AR pistol featureless (due to magazine location), so you need a fixed magazine

if you have a fixed magazine, you can have evil features
i know you can't make it featureless, i stated that i will either use FA's own maglock, or use the kingpin/hyperswitch setup. (or after protohyp puts his testing video out, one of the other ones depending on what i feel comfortable with).

then i will install the gas tube.
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
Proof we can all comment on whatever we want if it's at all related to the topic at hand!

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  #193  
Old 11-08-2018, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
It doesn't invalidate the permit. But you can certainly expect your issuing agency to revoke your permit later.

Think of it like driving drunk. You have a driver's license, and it has the stipulation that you may not drive while intoxicated. If you get caught driving drunk, you likely will lose your license later when the DMV hears about it, but they can't charge you for driving without a license, because you did have a license at the time.
I understand what you wrote. My example would be; have a regular drivers license and you can drive any car. But hop into a truck/air brakes or 18 wheels and its as if you never had a license. Or a pilot's license- you hold one but as soon as you takeoff in something not endorsed on the license- oh, say that little CJ$ business jet- you might have well saved the money for the license in the first place, it does you no good.

I see CCW in the same light- they don't list the weapons on there for fun. The permit is for the listed weapons, not stuff you pick up along the way. Get something new- get it added so it too is permitted.
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  #194  
Old 11-08-2018, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalBusa View Post
I understand what you wrote. My example would be; have a regular drivers license and you can drive any car. But hop into a truck/air brakes or 18 wheels and its as if you never had a license. Or a pilot's license- you hold one but as soon as you takeoff in something not endorsed on the license- oh, say that little CJ$ business jet- you might have well saved the money for the license in the first place, it does you no good.

I see CCW in the same light- they don't list the weapons on there for fun. The permit is for the listed weapons, not stuff you pick up along the way. Get something new- get it added so it too is permitted.
That's because a special license to drive a truck or a special certification for a jet aircraft is specifically a requirement by law.

Unless I'm mistaken about CA not requiring guns to be listed on the permit, CA law makes no mention (that I'm aware of) that your permit is only valid for guns listed on the permit. As far as the state of CA is concerned, your license is valid for any "pistol, revolver, or other firearm." But the issuing agency is well within their rights to revoke your permit, after the fact, for carrying something they didn't authorize. I could be wrong about that, I'm going to look again for the regulations and codes regarding CCW permits...

ETA: DOJ has no regulations regarding CCW issuance or validity, aside from a single regulation about fees.

The Penal code lightly touches on it: CA PC 26175(h) says:

Quote:
Any license issued upon the application shall set forth the licensee’s name, occupation, residence and business address, the licensee’s age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and the reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon, and shall, in addition, contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, and the caliber.
However, it does not say what happens if you carry a weapon "not authorized by the issuing agency". It does not specifically say that it's a crime, nor does the permit is not valid for unlisted weapons.

...

Anyways, I feel like this conversation is starting to get off-topic for the thread, so that's the last thing I'll say about that in here.
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  #195  
Old 11-08-2018, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalBusa View Post
I understand what you wrote. My example would be; have a regular drivers license and you can drive any car. But hop into a truck/air brakes or 18 wheels and its as if you never had a license. Or a pilot's license- you hold one but as soon as you takeoff in something not endorsed on the license- oh, say that little CJ$ business jet- you might have well saved the money for the license in the first place, it does you no good.

I see CCW in the same light- they don't list the weapons on there for fun. The permit is for the listed weapons, not stuff you pick up along the way. Get something new- get it added so it too is permitted.
If one is permitted/licensed to carry a hand gun, what difference does it make ?

Nevada ccw says "ANY" for the hand gun type/model.

List specific guns on the license and a month later every one decides to change their carry piece. More paper work and man hour for the agency. Waste of time.
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  #196  
Old 11-08-2018, 2:48 PM
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LGS near me has one display model and is taking preorders. HOPEFULLY I can get one some time next year, have to wait for my tax refund that I was going to spend on a Desert Eagle, but with gruesom coming into office, I feel this may be a better purchase...
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  #197  
Old 11-08-2018, 4:06 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3xTnfneQY

CA7 will be discussed shortly on live stream
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  #198  
Old 11-08-2018, 4:29 PM
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I got an email from Sacramento Black Rifle today about pre-ordering. I thought it was a joke. Then I decided to check Calguns. It's Freaking REAL!??!

I'm going down tomorrow to put down on a pre-order for sure.

I didn't read the thread guys. Any word on when these are guesstimated to ship?
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Old 11-08-2018, 4:45 PM
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Buncha worry-worts on this site! Legal Debbie downers

It’s rostered - it’s safe - keep it in a legal configuration, and guess what: STILL LEGAL.
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Old 11-08-2018, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plumbum View Post
Buncha worry-worts on this site! Legal Debbie downers

Itís rostered - itís safe - keep it in a legal configuration, and guess what: STILL LEGAL.
When you say legal configuration, you mean after it's been made semi auto with a fixed mag? Or are you saying leaving it the way it comes from FA?
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