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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 06-10-2019, 5:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
I see, so your premise is Trump and McConnell should have changed all the existing rules and done whatever they wanted to and since they didn't they failed you.

Got it.

If you really wanted any of this



to have a chance of happening you would be working with us to deliver Trump a super majority in both houses in 2020.

Instead you are trolling on the internet and bashing Trump which shows your true motives.
Oh gee, I didn't realize it requires a super majority in both houses to pass legislation that the other side doesn't want. Guess we'll never know how Obamacare was repealed. Oh wait - we do... it was made a legislative priority with leadership in both the Executive and Legislative branches pushing for it in any way they could muster. It wasn't just buried in committee hoping the constituency would forget about it.

The leadership is strong and effective when it suits them, and it's also weak and mediocre when it suits them. Apparently calling that out is for what it is constitutes as trolling.
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  #42  
Old 06-10-2019, 5:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Oh gee, I didn't realize it requires a super majority in both houses to pass legislation that the other side doesn't want. Guess we'll never know how Obamacare was repealed. Oh wait - we do... it was made a legislative priority with leadership in both the Executive and Legislative branches pushing for it in any way they could muster. It wasn't just buried in committee hoping the constituency would forget about it.

The leadership is strong and effective when it suits them, and it's also weak and mediocre when it suits them. Apparently calling that out is for what it is constitutes as trolling.
Well, considering the fact that Obamacare wasn't repealed, yes, you are trolling.
Then again, maybe you really are clueless.
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Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #43  
Old 06-10-2019, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
What in the world are you mumbling about now?
At this point, you're not even a decent
Did you even read the article you linked or did you simply read the headline and think it was a gotcha or something?

It's about HR 4477, not HR 38. Trump wanted the CCW provisions kept out of Fix NICS, thinking that the measure wouldn't pass with the CCW provisions. He's urging the CCW provision to be kept out Fix NICS so it could go through as a clean bill, as getting background checks voted on by Democrats is easier than getting them to vote for CCW. Only problem with that is the best chance of passing CCW was in conjunction with the Fix Nics - you give them something they want in exchange for something we want. Negotiation/Leadership stuff, you know?

It revealed why Trump never pressed McConnell to get HR 38 out of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He figured there wasn't a way to get it passed so he'd rather just bury it and pretend it never happened. He's made plenty of noise on other matters of policy that are important to him. His silence on this issue, together with the push for Fix NICS to the exclusion of CCW, the subsequent bumpfire stock ban and now this discussion of suppressors lets you know where he stands. If you don't want to see it and refuse to understand why folks are rightfully upset about campaign promises not being kept... well, that's just you.
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2019, 5:58 AM
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Trump didn't try, he didn't say anything.
He did say something but his comments are B.S.

I blame Trump, he didn't try hard enough.
I'm not saying it's only Trump's fault.

Trump didn't push for Concealed Carry.
The senate should go nuclear and repeal the NFA and other gun control measures.

s gotta
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Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Trump didn't try, he didn't say anything.
He did say something but his comments are B.S.

I blame Trump, he didn't try hard enough.
I'm not saying it's only Trump's fault.

Trump didn't push for Concealed Carry.
The senate should go nuclear and repeal the NFA and other gun control measures.

s gotta
Keep the blinders on nice and tight, bro.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Keep the blinders on nice and tight, bro.
Don't come back until you can back up your claim that Obamacare was repealed.
Good luck with that.
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Originally Posted by FrankMo View Post
Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #47  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Don't come back until you can back up your claim that Obamacare was repealed.
Good luck with that.
The Individual Mandate, which was the main point of contention for most conservatives with the ACA, was eliminated with Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. The entirety of the ACA was largely dependent on implementation of the Individual Mandate - without that the law has no teeth and cannot accomplish much of it's goal.

I have a feeling you're aware of this and are just playing dumb, though.

All kinds of legislative priorities are typically rolled into bigger bills like that. It's business as usual. Funny that CCW reciprocity never did. Ever wonder why?

So, about those blinders....
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
The Individual Mandate, which was the main point of contention for most conservatives with the ACA, was eliminated with Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. The entirety of the ACA was largely dependent on implementation of the Individual Mandate - without that the law has no teeth and cannot accomplish much of it's goal.

I have a feeling you're aware of this and are just playing dumb, though.

All kinds of legislative priorities are typically rolled into bigger bills like that. It's business as usual. Funny that CCW reciprocity never did. Ever wonder why?

So, about those blinders....
Try again. You claimed that Obamacare was repealed. It wasn't. But then again, you claim lots of things that aren't so.
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Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #49  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Try again. You claimed that Obamacare was repealed. It wasn't. But then again, you claim lots of things that aren't so.
An ipso facto repeal accomplishes the same goal. Nice dodge though, you'd make Mitch McConnel proud. Try again.
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  #50  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Nice dodge, try again.
Words mean things, you made a claim that isn't accurate or true, in fact you have done this several times in this thread. The dodge is entirely on your part, not mine.
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Originally Posted by FrankMo View Post
Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Originally Posted by Freedom2a View Post
Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #51  
Old 06-10-2019, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Words mean things, you made a claim that isn't accurate or true, in fact you have done this several times in this thread. The dodge is entirely on your part, not mine.
Wrong. You've clumsily evaded every counter-point by clinging to inexact use of language while ignoring the actual ramifications of relevant legislation to avoid discussion on the substance.

So, about those blinders...
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  #52  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:07 AM
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What bothers me about POTUS are his voluntary negative public comments about suppressors... If he is going to say anything then he should come out and say there is nothing wrong with suppressors and that they are already strictly controlled by NFA...Or he should say nothing..

His comments are telling Americans that suppressors ARE sinister..... That is an absolute lie.. What will he say about standard mags??? Semi Autos???
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  #53  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Wrong. You've clumsily evaded every counter-point by clinging to inexact use of language while ignoring the actual ramifications of relevant legislation to avoid discussion on the substance.

So, about those blinders...
So I'm the one using inexact language?
Project much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
What we do know is that he didn't even try. Not even a little bit.
but.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Yeah I saw that - his comments are BS.
and lets not forget......
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Guess we'll never know how Obamacare was repealed.
It's pretty hard to discuss ramifications of things that never happened with someone who doesn't know how our government works.
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Originally Posted by FrankMo View Post
Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Originally Posted by Freedom2a View Post
Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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Last edited by TRICKSTER; 06-10-2019 at 7:19 AM..
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:30 AM
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If you don't like Trump you can vote for one of the democrat communists.
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  #55  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
So I'm the one using inexact language?
Project much?


but.......

and lets not forget......


Now I'm not sure if you're really dodging or if your reading comprehension is really this bad...
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  #56  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:38 AM
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If you don't like Trump you can vote for one of the democrat communists.
That's not the point, dude. It's simply that you can never be complacent and blindly supportive of all the decisions and actions/innactions of your elected officials. You have to stay on them, otherwise they stop listening to the people and only start listening to their "advisors". I think that's what's happening with Trump, and the less people demand of him on this side the less he'll do... simple as that.
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  #57  
Old 06-10-2019, 7:44 AM
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Yep, all we have to do is tell Trump to push McConnel to go nuclear and all of the gun control laws will go away, just ask Frito.
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Originally Posted by FrankMo View Post
Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Originally Posted by Freedom2a View Post
Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #58  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
Very interesting points made in the video below, what are your thoughts?

If you don't bother watching the vid and just think "4D chess", then you're probably the kind of person that should watch it.

Bootstrap is 200% correct and many of the points he made I have known for some time. And for the people that think he is going appoint judges to the supreme court that will uphold the second amendment I don't know about that either because the court rejects way to many gun rights cases already.
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  #59  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
What bothers me about POTUS are his voluntary negative public comments about suppressors... If he is going to say anything then he should come out and say there is nothing wrong with suppressors and that they are already strictly controlled by NFA...Or he should say nothing..

His comments are telling Americans that suppressors ARE sinister..... That is an absolute lie.. What will he say about standard mags??? Semi Autos???
I agree
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  #60  
Old 06-11-2019, 7:19 AM
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I want the NFA repealed and Federal CCW....but not at the expense of going nuclear to accomplish. Because when, not if, but when, the Democrats hold the majority in the future, I don't want to fathom what they would do to the 2A with that power.
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  #61  
Old 06-11-2019, 8:57 AM
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I want the NFA repealed and Federal CCW....but not at the expense of going nuclear to accomplish. Because when, not if, but when, the Democrats hold the majority in the future, I don't want to fathom what they would do to the 2A with that power.
Unfortunately the timing for going nuclear has already passed.

I'm not gonna say it wouldn't have been a risky strategy, but I think it's the only way we get our rights back at this point instead of just trying to stave off more infringements moving forward. The "wait and see" approach is just a slow death sentence - and a certain one at that. There is no way in which we win through that approach.

The way I see it, if a repeal of NFA, GCA, etc. had been forced at the beginning of Trump's term, that would have been a few solid years of millions of machine gun lowers, suppressors, SBRs, SBS's, etc. getting out into the wild and falling under the "common use" protections of Heller.

Sure, the Democrats will re-take control at government at one point and try to pass the same kind of gun control legislation we're already dealing with in California - but there's no guarantee that they would have succeeded because of the risk this poses to red state Democrats who aren't keen to lose their jobs. Generally speaking anti-gun legislation is a losing strategy for the Democrats, it only works out during primaries but not so well during general elections.

That's when it'd be time for Trump's judicial appointments to pay dividends and cement our rights through the judiciary - just like the rights of same-sex couples and abortion have been cemented through the judiciary. The court hasn't had this many conservatives at the top in something like 50 years, and Justice Ginsburg practically has one foot in the grave already. Now would have been the time to push back - to take a risk.
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  #62  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:28 AM
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Unfortunately the timing for going nuclear has already passed.

I'm not gonna say it wouldn't have been a risky strategy, but I think it's the only way we get our rights back at this point instead of just trying to stave off more infringements moving forward. The "wait and see" approach is just a slow death sentence - and a certain one at that. There is no way in which we win through that approach.

The way I see it, if a repeal of NFA, GCA, etc. had been forced at the beginning of Trump's term, that would have been a few solid years of millions of machine gun lowers, suppressors, SBRs, SBS's, etc. getting out into the wild and falling under the "common use" protections of Heller.

Sure, the Democrats will re-take control at government at one point and try to pass the same kind of gun control legislation we're already dealing with in California - but there's no guarantee that they would have succeeded because of the risk this poses to red state Democrats who aren't keen to lose their jobs. Generally speaking anti-gun legislation is a losing strategy for the Democrats, it only works out during primaries but not so well during general elections.

That's when it'd be time for Trump's judicial appointments to pay dividends and cement our rights through the judiciary - just like the rights of same-sex couples and abortion have been cemented through the judiciary. The court hasn't had this many conservatives at the top in something like 50 years, and Justice Ginsburg practically has one foot in the grave already. Now would have been the time to push back - to take a risk.
I don't know if you are trolling, are a anti-gun plant posting idiotic comments to make the firearms community look like nuts, or just lack plain common sense.
There is no public support for legalizing fully automatic weapons for general sales. The first mass shooting using one would be the end of what gun right that we have and the careers on any politician that pushed for it.
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Almost every poll shows Trump losing very badly, yet poeple still believe some conspiracy. The party p[icked the weakest candidate so they have to own that.
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Anything to protect Cheeto. Even though he just signed basically a gun confiscation order.
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  #63  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Unfortunately the timing for going nuclear has already passed.

I'm not gonna say it wouldn't have been a risky strategy, but I think it's the only way we get our rights back at this point instead of just trying to stave off more infringements moving forward. The "wait and see" approach is just a slow death sentence - and a certain one at that. There is no way in which we win through that approach.

The way I see it, if a repeal of NFA, GCA, etc. had been forced at the beginning of Trump's term, that would have been a few solid years of millions of machine gun lowers, suppressors, SBRs, SBS's, etc. getting out into the wild and falling under the "common use" protections of Heller.

Sure, the Democrats will re-take control at government at one point and try to pass the same kind of gun control legislation we're already dealing with in California - but there's no guarantee that they would have succeeded because of the risk this poses to red state Democrats who aren't keen to lose their jobs. Generally speaking anti-gun legislation is a losing strategy for the Democrats, it only works out during primaries but not so well during general elections.

That's when it'd be time for Trump's judicial appointments to pay dividends and cement our rights through the judiciary - just like the rights of same-sex couples and abortion have been cemented through the judiciary. The court hasn't had this many conservatives at the top in something like 50 years, and Justice Ginsburg practically has one foot in the grave already. Now would have been the time to push back - to take a risk.
I agree but I also know that we will never have anything close fair 2nd admin laws on a fifty state level unless it come from the federal level.

Last edited by R Dale; 06-11-2019 at 10:17 AM..
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  #64  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:58 AM
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I don't know if you are trolling, are a anti-gun plant posting idiotic comments to make the firearms community look like nuts, or just lack plain common sense.
There is no public support for legalizing fully automatic weapons for general sales. The first mass shooting using one would be the end of what gun right that we have and the careers on any politician that pushed for it.
By that logic you must have been against letting the AWB lapse back in '04.

Were you? Show me those dodging skills again.
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Old 06-11-2019, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
President Trump could have put pressure on Mitch McConnell to put the National Reciprocity bill to a vote.

He could have, but he chose not to.

There's no political BSing and mental gymnastics around that fact.
Agree he could have - don't know whether he did or did not. But we still have the problem of a fair number of gunowners not even on board with involving the federal government in an area currently handled by the states.

I maintain 4 non-resident permits - OR, UT, NH & MA. MA is especially a PITA and requires me to requalify every year at a cost of $100.00. As much as anyone else I was eager to have some sort of national reciprocity. I wouldn't say now that I'm opposed with certainty, more like not too enthusiastic and cautious.

When I see Senators like Booker and Schumer call for a "national licensing" carry scheme now I wonder, were "national reciprocity" already in place might a Democratic Congress add words like "so long as the reciprocating state is "may issue' and the applicant passes a psychological test" and such. Inviting the feds in on our side legitimizes the other side's eventual use against us.

I guess the above is a long winded way of saying I don't think the bill had enough juice to pass the Senate and perhaps that's why it wasn't pushed.

Last edited by dfletcher; 06-11-2019 at 4:10 PM..
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  #66  
Old 06-11-2019, 4:14 PM
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OMG I cannot believe these internet tough guys whining about CCW or bump stocks or blah, blah blah.

Sheesh guys grow a pair and carry where and when you want! Same with your valuable bump stocks.
You all know the laws are unconstitutional! Be a test case !
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  #67  
Old 06-11-2019, 4:17 PM
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...

I maintain 4 non-resident permits - OR, UT, NH & MA. MA is especially a PITA and requires me to requalify every year at a cost of $100.00. As much as anyone else I was eager to have some sort of national reciprocity. I wouldn't say now that I'm opposed with certainty, more like not too enthusiastic and cautious.

...
At least they got rid of the old (in 2013?) requirement that you had to show up in Chelsea every year. Now it is just to renew. Still, it is BS that you have to pay $100 every year while in-state is $100 every 5 years. Get's you Nevada, via reciprocity, as well.
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Old 06-11-2019, 4:41 PM
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dfletcher dfletcher is offline
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Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
At least they got rid of the old (in 2013?) requirement that you had to show up in Chelsea every year. Now it is just to renew. Still, it is BS that you have to pay $100 every year while in-state is $100 every 5 years. Get's you Nevada, via reciprocity, as well.
At least it's not in Lawrence.

I think the "in person" was changed in 2017 but not gotten rid of entirely. A visit once every 5 years. Didn't mind the trip as it coincided with visiting family in Andover a few times every year.
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