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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 04-28-2019, 8:49 AM
mrrabbit mrrabbit is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulball View Post
You know what, you are absolutely right TiC. Nothing of value added. I'll show myself out so you can enjoy your thread.
Exactly, especially considering that it is first and foremost the job of the NRA leadership to defend the NRA, its positions, its contracts, its spending as summarized in required financial statements and filings, etc.

It nice to have "members" do so too...but it is first and foremost the job of those in the leadership positions.

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  #42  
Old 04-28-2019, 10:53 AM
BryMan92 BryMan92 is online now
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Found a Twitter thread from a NPR reporter talking about NY’s actions:

https://mobile.twitter.com/timkmak/s...49185435234305

Around post 5 he explains why the AG of NY has authority to investigate the NRA. Among other reasons, it turns out the NRA is chartered out of NY and moving it to another state is difficult.
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  #43  
Old 04-28-2019, 10:56 AM
parb parb is offline
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I read the 1099 for 2017. They spent roughly $8.5M in salaries on the top 8 employees/executives in the organization. $5.5M of that $8.5M goes to people designated as officers or directors under IRS rules. Total payroll is $49M USD including pay to executives and officers. They spent another $8.6M on the employer contributed part of pension plans or 401K style matches.
The two numbers that matter are $49M USD for payroll and $8.5M to the top 8 employees/executives.

It looks like they have roughly 1,000 employees that are paid a salary. Excluding the 8 top earners, the salaries are averaging $41,500. Averages aren't a great way to determine pay since a fair amount of employees could be part time employees and there may be a weighting outside the average, but if you accept that as a useful statistic then the NRA CEO makes about 34 times more than the average employee.

Sounds like a lot doesn't it?
The average worker in the top 350 companies in america (top 350 ranked by sales) is paid $58,000. The average CEO pay in that group of companies is paid 271 times more than the average employee. Assuming you benchmark the CEO of the NRA similarly to a successful CEO of a company then i suggest his pay isn't out of line. In fact, if you consider him successful he may even be underpaid vs. what a leader could get in private industry.

Compared to other non-profits he is paid much more. the national average is $280k for charities with over 1,000 employees.
I suggest that those non-profit CEOs aren't that easy to compare directly with NRA as i think NRA's CEO has to be of of a much higher caliber than those CEOs due to the unique challenges presented in the NRA mission.

They spent about $70M USD on services from outside organizations, membership management, postage, marketing etc. The Ackerman company took home $20M in that year so pretty good chunk of change. Doesn't seem crazy high to me although they are using up close to 20% of the budget.

anyway, my few cents from looking through their 1099. i don't see anything earth shattering in their financial data, except they take home much less money in donations than i thought they would. 127 people gave $5,000 or more in that year as a single donation.

Last edited by parb; 04-28-2019 at 11:05 AM..
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  #44  
Old 04-28-2019, 4:11 PM
thmsmgnm thmsmgnm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
Found a Twitter thread from a NPR reporter talking about NY’s actions:

https://mobile.twitter.com/timkmak/s...49185435234305

Around post 5 he explains why the AG of NY has authority to investigate the NRA. Among other reasons, it turns out the NRA is chartered out of NY and moving it to another state is difficult.

Sounds like the same BS HK says when asked about products they can not sell. Moving to the US is hard.

The NRA has has decades to move. It is laziness, stupidity, greed, and arrogance that is causing the NRA's downfall.
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  #45  
Old 04-28-2019, 4:13 PM
thmsmgnm thmsmgnm is offline
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Originally Posted by parb View Post
I read the 1099 for 2017. They spent roughly $8.5M in salaries on the top 8 employees/executives in the organization. $5.5M of that $8.5M goes to people designated as officers or directors under IRS rules. Total payroll is $49M USD including pay to executives and officers. They spent another $8.6M on the employer contributed part of pension plans or 401K style matches.
The two numbers that matter are $49M USD for payroll and $8.5M to the top 8 employees/executives.

It looks like they have roughly 1,000 employees that are paid a salary. Excluding the 8 top earners, the salaries are averaging $41,500. Averages aren't a great way to determine pay since a fair amount of employees could be part time employees and there may be a weighting outside the average, but if you accept that as a useful statistic then the NRA CEO makes about 34 times more than the average employee.

Sounds like a lot doesn't it?
The average worker in the top 350 companies in america (top 350 ranked by sales) is paid $58,000. The average CEO pay in that group of companies is paid 271 times more than the average employee. Assuming you benchmark the CEO of the NRA similarly to a successful CEO of a company then i suggest his pay isn't out of line. In fact, if you consider him successful he may even be underpaid vs. what a leader could get in private industry.

Compared to other non-profits he is paid much more. the national average is $280k for charities with over 1,000 employees.
I suggest that those non-profit CEOs aren't that easy to compare directly with NRA as i think NRA's CEO has to be of of a much higher caliber than those CEOs due to the unique challenges presented in the NRA mission.

They spent about $70M USD on services from outside organizations, membership management, postage, marketing etc. The Ackerman company took home $20M in that year so pretty good chunk of change. Doesn't seem crazy high to me although they are using up close to 20% of the budget.

anyway, my few cents from looking through their 1099. i don't see anything earth shattering in their financial data, except they take home much less money in donations than i thought they would. 127 people gave $5,000 or more in that year as a single donation.

You must have missed the stories about some NRA employees taking a separate check as advisers/contractors/vendors to the NRA totally amounts equal to base pay.
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  #46  
Old 04-28-2019, 4:55 PM
Noble Cause Noble Cause is offline
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Originally Posted by thmsmgnm View Post
You must have missed the stories about some NRA employees taking a separate check as advisers/contractors/vendors to the NRA totally amounts equal to base pay.
Emphasis mine.

Allegations are not proof or evidence of any wrong doing.

You sure are in a Rush to Judgement for someone with such a low
post count.


Noble
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  #47  
Old 04-28-2019, 5:17 PM
Noble Cause Noble Cause is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parb View Post
I read the 1099 for 2017. They spent roughly $8.5M in salaries on the top 8 employees/executives in the organization. $5.5M of that $8.5M goes to people designated as officers or directors under IRS rules. Total payroll is $49M USD including pay to executives and officers. They spent another $8.6M on the employer contributed part of pension plans or 401K style matches.
The two numbers that matter are $49M USD for payroll and $8.5M to the top 8 employees/executives.

It looks like they have roughly 1,000 employees that are paid a salary. Excluding the 8 top earners, the salaries are averaging $41,500. Averages aren't a great way to determine pay since a fair amount of employees could be part time employees and there may be a weighting outside the average, but if you accept that as a useful statistic then the NRA CEO makes about 34 times more than the average employee.

Sounds like a lot doesn't it?
The average worker in the top 350 companies in america (top 350 ranked by sales) is paid $58,000. The average CEO pay in that group of companies is paid 271 times more than the average employee. Assuming you benchmark the CEO of the NRA similarly to a successful CEO of a company then i suggest his pay isn't out of line. In fact, if you consider him successful he may even be underpaid vs. what a leader could get in private industry.

Compared to other non-profits he is paid much more. the national average is $280k for charities with over 1,000 employees.
I suggest that those non-profit CEOs aren't that easy to compare directly with NRA as i think NRA's CEO has to be of of a much higher caliber than those CEOs due to the unique challenges presented in the NRA mission.

They spent about $70M USD on services from outside organizations, membership management, postage, marketing etc. The Ackerman company took home $20M in that year so pretty good chunk of change. Doesn't seem crazy high to me although they are using up close to 20% of the budget.

anyway, my few cents from looking through their 1099. i don't see anything earth shattering in their financial data, except they take home much less money in donations than i thought they would. 127 people gave $5,000 or more in that year as a single donation.

Thank You for the analysis.

I would also add...

Criticism based solely on monetary amounts aren't a valid reason
by themselves.

And Remember....other Non Profits Ceo's don't have to put up
with the constant smears & personal attacks and public
demonization heaped on Wayne LaPierre.


There is a relationship with size & pay:

The Relationship Between
Company Size and CEO Pay

Cornell University.
https://www.ilr.cornell.edu/sites/il...al-world_0.pdf
Quote:
So it’s true — bigger organizations pay their CEOs
more, no matter whether they are for-profit companies,
non-profit organizations or labor unions.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing Bonus / Reward system
for actual results as an incentive... when a Pro Gun Bill passes or
Anti-Gun Bill gets nuked, when we win in court etc.

So in lean years with no Pro-2A progress, little to none bonus money
will be approved or paid out. Maybe even have the NRA members
who have voting privileges vote on the matter.

But we do need to have decent salary levels to make sure we retain
competent people in todays work market.

I'm sure we would get a lot of applications for only $50k,
but not sure they would be appropriate, or ready to take on
the constant public demonization Wayne has endured:







Not very many people are willing to accept that level of Public
Abuse on themselves and family
no matter what the pay.


Noble
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  #48  
Old 04-29-2019, 4:33 PM
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TrappedinCalifornia TrappedinCalifornia is offline
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There's a lot of back and forth out there about "NRA Members" challenging the organization leadership. Here's a video, posted 5 hrs. ago on YouTube by Rob Pincus, as to why...



Basically, the desire was for more transparency in terms of what is happening; i.e., that it's "okay" to have an open discussion about the problems, concerns, financial issues, etc.

As he cites in an associated piece posted on AmmoLand...

Quote:
Please SHARE this throughout the gun community and make sure that no one (including those with an agenda from outside our community) spins our actions to suit their narrative!
As I've said, at some point, on some level, NRA Leadership is going to have to address the expressed concerns on, at least, some of these issues. Those concerns cannot simply be 'dismissed' as an attack on the gun rights of individuals. Explanations don't need to be a mea culpa, just honest and logical.

For instance, if LaPierre as a 'wardrobe allowance,' then detail the amount and proffer an explanation as to why. Don't just point to the salaries of other non-profit executives, provide some insight into what, exactly, NRA executives do to earn those salaries beyond speeches, lunches, etc.; i.e., networking, coordination, administration, etc. Highlight why the NRA has expanded beyond "guns" to other aspects of the "culture war;" e.g., that it's virtually impossible to truly look at just one issue in 'isolation' anymore... in the context of legislation and litigation related to the 2nd Amendment, other fundamental rights have and do come into play... how support for a given politician isn't about "Party," but about a record or clear intent of protecting the rights recognized and protected by the 2nd Amendment... etc.

We're in a difficult time and gun rights, as well as organizations which protect those rights, are under attack. There will NEVER be 100% solidarity of agreement in the methods, strategies, and people chosen to defend those rights; particularly in a group of 5 million-plus members and 100 million-plus American gun owners. However, the time has passed (or, at least, is passing) for 'hiding' behind "it's an attack on gun rights" anytime questions are asked and concerns raised over the decisions and actions taken.

The NRA doesn't need to let the public into the kitchen where the sausage is made. The public and the membership at large don't need to know all the "Colonel's secret ingredients" in terms of how the organization is administered and why certain actions are taken or not taken, why certain legal strategies are/aren't pursued, et al. But, in the age of instant communication, more and more attention is going to be required to keeping the membership "informed" with more specificity than was thought necessary 30 years ago.

I think that is what Pincus is trying to communicate. I think that is, partly, what John Lott is trying to communicate. That is what Kestryll is communicating as to why Calguns has a new forum section - Guns & Money. That's what I've been trying to communicate with this thread...
  • Bloomberg's ad campaign and how many of the 'news reports' seem to funnel back to that campaign
  • The tax returns - Form 990
  • LaPierre's Letter
  • NRA bylaws
  • Link to actual lawsuit
  • Link to CRPA cite talking about NRA 'partnership'
  • NRA President Cors' 2017 posted explanation for the voting change(s)
  • Video of North's resignation letter being read
  • Video of what one of the 'instigators' at the NRA Meeting claims is their intent

As this thread has been attempting to demonstrate, the sources providing 'targets of opportunity' for that ad campaign/media narrative are generally or often out there and readily available. One need not rely solely on 'media reports' and their inherent perspectives/premises to make their determination regarding what's going on.

Does the NRA/CRPA need to get better in terms of transparency and communicating to members/the public? Absolutely.

Do members/the public need to do a better job in seeking out and consulting source materials rather than knee-jerk reacting to headlines and potentially misleading news reports, resulting in numerous threads based on "so and so supposedly said/says" which turn into heated exchanges?

I'll let you decide.

Thanks for the participation.
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  #49  
Old 04-29-2019, 6:59 PM
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bubbapug1 bubbapug1 is offline
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Originally Posted by faterikcartman View Post
I am not going to get in the weeds about the details here as I have not followed this as some of you have.

I will make a personal observation, however.

Wayne LaPierre has run the NRA since 1991. Some 28 years. My experience with people over the years is that if a man runs anything for 28 years he begins to think he owns it. Perhaps more importantly, it is often the case that anyone who runs anything for 28 years straight owns it.

Personally, I don't believe such a dynamic is healthy for any organization when the person in charge for 28 years doesn't actually own it.

Carry on.
Bingo.....

Lets hope this blows over soon and we get back on track. We need the NRA.
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  #50  
Old 04-29-2019, 7:23 PM
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dfletcher dfletcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parb View Post
I read the 1099 for 2017. They spent roughly $8.5M in salaries on the top 8 employees/executives in the organization. $5.5M of that $8.5M goes to people designated as officers or directors under IRS rules. Total payroll is $49M USD including pay to executives and officers. They spent another $8.6M on the employer contributed part of pension plans or 401K style matches.
The two numbers that matter are $49M USD for payroll and $8.5M to the top 8 employees/executives.

It looks like they have roughly 1,000 employees that are paid a salary. Excluding the 8 top earners, the salaries are averaging $41,500. Averages aren't a great way to determine pay since a fair amount of employees could be part time employees and there may be a weighting outside the average, but if you accept that as a useful statistic then the NRA CEO makes about 34 times more than the average employee.

Sounds like a lot doesn't it?
The average worker in the top 350 companies in america (top 350 ranked by sales) is paid $58,000. The average CEO pay in that group of companies is paid 271 times more than the average employee. Assuming you benchmark the CEO of the NRA similarly to a successful CEO of a company then i suggest his pay isn't out of line. In fact, if you consider him successful he may even be underpaid vs. what a leader could get in private industry.

Compared to other non-profits he is paid much more. the national average is $280k for charities with over 1,000 employees.
I suggest that those non-profit CEOs aren't that easy to compare directly with NRA as i think NRA's CEO has to be of of a much higher caliber than those CEOs due to the unique challenges presented in the NRA mission.

They spent about $70M USD on services from outside organizations, membership management, postage, marketing etc. The Ackerman company took home $20M in that year so pretty good chunk of change. Doesn't seem crazy high to me although they are using up close to 20% of the budget.

anyway, my few cents from looking through their 1099. i don't see anything earth shattering in their financial data, except they take home much less money in donations than i thought they would. 127 people gave $5,000 or more in that year as a single donation.
You've not only put more impartial information in this post than any other, in this thread and the others linked in the OP, but also indirectly pointed out why the Trace article and those other threads have such legs.

Your post doesn't sensationalize. It doesn't hold up anyone as a villain. It doesn't accuse or forecast doom and gloom. It certainly isn't a catalyst for great argument. It's a review of fact based information - and will probably be mostly ignored by the few folks here who seek to perpetuate disagreement or discord.

Last edited by dfletcher; 04-29-2019 at 8:02 PM..
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  #51  
Old 04-29-2019, 7:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
There's a lot of back and forth out there about "NRA Members" challenging the organization leadership. Here's a video, posted 5 hrs. ago on YouTube by Rob Pincus, as to why...



Basically, the desire was for more transparency in terms of what is happening; i.e., that it's "okay" to have an open discussion about the problems, concerns, financial issues, etc.

As he cites in an associated piece posted on AmmoLand...



As I've said, at some point, on some level, NRA Leadership is going to have to address the expressed concerns on, at least, some of these issues. Those concerns cannot simply be 'dismissed' as an attack on the gun rights of individuals. Explanations don't need to be a mea culpa, just honest and logical.

For instance, if LaPierre as a 'wardrobe allowance,' then detail the amount and proffer an explanation as to why. Don't just point to the salaries of other non-profit executives, provide some insight into what, exactly, NRA executives do to earn those salaries beyond speeches, lunches, etc.; i.e., networking, coordination, administration, etc. Highlight why the NRA has expanded beyond "guns" to other aspects of the "culture war;" e.g., that it's virtually impossible to truly look at just one issue in 'isolation' anymore... in the context of legislation and litigation related to the 2nd Amendment, other fundamental rights have and do come into play... how support for a given politician isn't about "Party," but about a record or clear intent of protecting the rights recognized and protected by the 2nd Amendment... etc.

We're in a difficult time and gun rights, as well as organizations which protect those rights, are under attack. There will NEVER be 100% solidarity of agreement in the methods, strategies, and people chosen to defend those rights; particularly in a group of 5 million-plus members and 100 million-plus American gun owners. However, the time has passed (or, at least, is passing) for 'hiding' behind "it's an attack on gun rights" anytime questions are asked and concerns raised over the decisions and actions taken.

The NRA doesn't need to let the public into the kitchen where the sausage is made. The public and the membership at large don't need to know all the "Colonel's secret ingredients" in terms of how the organization is administered and why certain actions are taken or not taken, why certain legal strategies are/aren't pursued, et al. But, in the age of instant communication, more and more attention is going to be required to keeping the membership "informed" with more specificity than was thought necessary 30 years ago.

I think that is what Pincus is trying to communicate. I think that is, partly, what John Lott is trying to communicate. That is what Kestryll is communicating as to why Calguns has a new forum section - Guns & Money. That's what I've been trying to communicate with this thread...
  • Bloomberg's ad campaign and how many of the 'news reports' seem to funnel back to that campaign
  • The tax returns - Form 990
  • LaPierre's Letter
  • NRA bylaws
  • Link to actual lawsuit
  • Link to CRPA cite talking about NRA 'partnership'
  • NRA President Cors' 2017 posted explanation for the voting change(s)
  • Video of North's resignation letter being read
  • Video of what one of the 'instigators' at the NRA Meeting claims is their intent

As this thread has been attempting to demonstrate, the sources providing 'targets of opportunity' for that ad campaign/media narrative are generally or often out there and readily available. One need not rely solely on 'media reports' and their inherent perspectives/premises to make their determination regarding what's going on.

Does the NRA/CRPA need to get better in terms of transparency and communicating to members/the public? Absolutely.

Do members/the public need to do a better job in seeking out and consulting source materials rather than knee-jerk reacting to headlines and potentially misleading news reports, resulting in numerous threads based on "so and so supposedly said/says" which turn into heated exchanges?

I'll let you decide.

Thanks for the participation.
I appreciate this and your opening post. Always thoughtful and well presented.

I think most folks here are able to differentiate between those with a genuine interest in gun rights, who want the NRA (or any pro-gun organization) to do well, and those with another agenda. Their presentations aren't particularly creative or new.

Underlying your posts and those who support gun rights is a desire - and an expectation, I would say - that NRA, membership and management, will address whatever issues arise and do well. That's what's missing in the "gee whiz, what do you guys think?" postings, which often include an endorsement of the Bloomberg or Trace position, peppering this and other threads.
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  #52  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:35 PM
BryMan92 BryMan92 is online now
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“That's what's missing in the "gee whiz, what do you guys think?" postings, which often include an endorsement of the Bloomberg or Trace position, peppering this and other threads.”

You must have great hearing to pickup all the dogwhistles I’ve been dropping. I think you’ve put more words in my mouth that I’ve actually posted here on CalGuns.
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  #53  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:57 PM
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Stephen Gutowski of the Free Beacon documented the closed-door executive BOD meeting today. Apparently some stuff has leaked but mums still the word for most of it:

https://mobile.twitter.com/StephenGu...00204561670144

He compiled an article too:
https://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-bo...controversies/

“NRA first vice president Richard Childress began to deliver his report to the board. However, as Childress started to describe an attempt by him and NRA president Oliver North to perform a special audit of the organization, he was interrupted by a board member who requested the board go into a closed-door executive session. The board then voted nearly unanimously to go into executive session.”

I have a feeling more information is going to start tricking out over these next couple days. Seems some of the Board are at least coming out in support of transparency and reforms which is good.
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  #54  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
“That's what's missing in the "gee whiz, what do you guys think?" postings, which often include an endorsement of the Bloomberg or Trace position, peppering this and other threads.”

You must have great hearing to pickup all the dogwhistles I’ve been dropping. I think you’ve put more words in my mouth that I’ve actually posted here on CalGuns.

You post links to what other people say, nothing original there, and add a line or two of endorsement. Just as you've done above. You have a position to push, you've been doing it from the start. Why not just come out and say it plainly? If a person is anti-gun or anti-NRA, well - that's their position. Who are we to talk them out of it, any more than it's their role, directly or in a slippery way, to do likewise.

In your own words, why it would be so difficult for a corporation to move from one state to another? Why is that process so difficult, why would it be such a challenge for an organization such as NRA when others, manufacturing types with physical assets, do it without much ado?

Is there something wrong with an organization conducting its business in private? Does doing so mean so mean something nefarious is afoot, as you suggest? Does NRA owe non-members anything by way of accounting or explanation? They owe it to me, not you and certainly not to the public at large.

You may not know, although most gunowners are aware, that several gun manufacturers have left restrictive states and set up elsewhere. It takes some work and planning but is hardly injurious.

As with posting the financials, it seems to me if one is going to endorse the information in the link they have an obligation to know it and be able to explain why they agree with it. Perhaps posting your own opinions rather than others is a better approach.

Last edited by dfletcher; 04-30-2019 at 11:31 AM..
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  #55  
Old 04-30-2019, 1:27 PM
BryMan92 BryMan92 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
You post links to what other people say, nothing original there, and add a line or two of endorsement. Just as you've done above. You have a position to push, you've been doing it from the start. Why not just come out and say it plainly? If a person is anti-gun or anti-NRA, well - that's their position. Who are we to talk them out of it, any more than it's their role, directly or in a slippery way, to do likewise.
I will post whatever I like and how I like to. I leave it to people (even you) to read them (or not) and make their own conclusions, ask questions, or destroy the article. I've posted from the IRS, The Trace, AmmoLand, Free Beacon, NPR, and will likely post more if I find them interesting. If you want to judge all books from their covers and try to discredit posters for posting things you do not like, then that is your prerogative but counterproductive. Likewise, you and I are probably going to keep donating to the NRA with hopes they remain potent as there is very little any of us can do on this forum at this point. If we assume all this is true, then what harm comes from a more accountable and financially strong NRA driven by individuals who support the 2A more than money? Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
In your own words, why it would be so difficult for a corporation to move from one state to another? Why is that process so difficult, why would it be such a challenge for an organization such as NRA when others, manufacturing types with physical assets, do it without much ado?
What does it matter the process? The NRA seems happy to stay there. Maybe they like the Yankees or crappy clam chowder or the high taxes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Is there something wrong with an organization conducting its business in private? Does doing so mean so mean something nefarious is afoot, as you suggest? Does NRA owe non-members anything by way of accounting or explanation? They owe it to me, not you and certainly not to the public at large.
I would say any organizations owe it to their members to be accountable or else they will just go somewhere else and the organization will crumble. I would say paying a CEO of a *non-profit* upwards to $5,000,000 is nefarious: that money could be spent on lawsuits, paying off the money they lost/borrowed, lobbying, or education, etc.,. I hope the NRA comes back to its members in an open and honest way, but only time will tell if this is the case or if they will just fire-up the rhetoric to get more social security checks from seniors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
As with posting the financials, it seems to me if one is going to endorse the information in the link they have an obligation to know it and be able to explain why they agree with it. Perhaps posting your own opinions rather than others is a better approach.
I posted the article and then the raw data then asked for help from this very community so *qualified people non-biased people* could parse the returns because I reckon 99% of us don't understand them. We've seen a few people make comments and I hope more do. My opinion is, if the NRA wants to be effective it has to be financially responsible and stable or else it will fail to provide what members want. If you have a deeper dive, then please enlighten us.

Still, both of us can agree, the NRA needs to be strong and remain strong and remain efficient in its mission.

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Old 04-30-2019, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
I will post whatever I like and how I like to. I leave it to people (even you) to read them (or not) and make their own conclusions, ask questions, or destroy the article. I've posted from the IRS, The Trace, AmmoLand, Free Beacon, NPR, and will likely post more if I find them interesting. If you want to judge all books from their covers and try to discredit posters for posting things you do not like, then that is your prerogative but counterproductive. Likewise, you and I are probably going to keep donating to the NRA with hopes they remain potent as there is very little any of us can do on this forum at this point. If we assume all this is true, then what harm comes from a more accountable and financially strong NRA driven by individuals who support the 2A more than money? Nothing.

What does it matter the process? The NRA seems happy to stay there. Maybe they like the Yankees or crappy clam chowder or the high taxes?

I would say any organizations owe it to their members to be accountable or else they will just go somewhere else and the organization will crumble. I would say paying a CEO of a *non-profit* upwards to $5,000,000 is nefarious: that money could be spent on lawsuits, paying off the money they lost/borrowed, lobbying, or education, etc.,. I hope the NRA comes back to its members in an open and honest way, but only time will tell if this is the case or if they will just fire-up the rhetoric to get more social security checks from seniors.

I posted the article and then the raw data then asked for help from this very community so *qualified people non-biased people* could parse the returns because I reckon 99% of us don't understand them. We've seen a few people make comments and I hope more do. My opinion is, if the NRA wants to be effective it has to be financially responsible and stable or else it will fail to provide what members want. If you have a deeper dive, then please enlighten us.
I'm not very good at cut & paste so I'll address in order -

Of course you can post as you prefer, but you follow by validating the articles without explanation. Like it or not, considering the source is a valid approach. Do you suppose we'd find good info on civil rights from a Klan article or an even handed assessment of Planned Parenthood from articles written and paid for by Evangelicals? Would posting a link with "these guys have a point, PP is an evil organization" be "just providing information"? Of course not, it's pushing a point of view while sidestepping accountability for contents or position.

The process matters because you suggested it was a problem. If you don't know the process that would suggest not offering an opinion, especially one which bolsters the article, that moving would be a problem. If you don't know the process don't comment on its consequences, yes?

Regarding salary, you're not a member so whatever LaPierre makes is none of your business. Another poster provided good info on NRA management wages and found them unremarkable. That poster did exactly what you suggested - looked at info and presented results. Still, you repeat that Lapierre is overpaid. And not a single "hmm, that's interesting" engagement in return.

Finally, I took the time to read the balance sheet you provided, just a bit. And found NRA about $35M in the black. Is that worth a comment, because I've yet to see you offer anything in response along those lines.

I'll agree with you on two points - first, you'll continue to post similar links and buttressing comments. And NY has crappy clam chowder. Anything east of the Sagamore Bridge is questionable at best.
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Old 04-30-2019, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
I'm not very good at cut & paste so I'll address in order -

Of course you can post as you prefer, but you follow by validating the articles without explanation. Like it or not, considering the source is a valid approach. Do you suppose we'd find good info on civil rights from a Klan article or an even handed assessment of Planned Parenthood from articles written and paid for by Evangelicals? Would posting a link with "these guys have a point, PP is an evil organization" be "just providing information"? Of course not, it's pushing a point of view while sidestepping accountability for contents or position.

The process matters because you suggested it was a problem. If you don't know the process that would suggest not offering an opinion, especially one which bolsters the article, that moving would be a problem. If you don't know the process don't comment on its consequences, yes?
The process matters little to me as to why they are still there. Seems incredibly foolish to charter an organization in a place like NY where they can actively step-in and make changes internally. The only worse place would be SF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Regarding salary, you're not a member so whatever LaPierre makes is none of your business. Another poster provided good info on NRA management wages and found them unremarkable. That poster did exactly what you suggested - looked at info and presented results. Still, you repeat that Lapierre is overpaid. And not a single "hmm, that's interesting" engagement in return.
I am a member and as such I want the NRA to spend my money in ways I agree with. It is my *opinion* that he, like many other CEOs of non-profits, are overpaid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Finally, I took the time to read the balance sheet you provided, just a bit. And found NRA about $35M in the black. Is that worth a comment, because I've yet to see you offer anything in response along those lines.
If you can point to where you see that, that would be wonderful. Others, including those here, have stated the NRA has taken $25-30 million in credit while other sources have stated membership revenues dropped $35million. From the data you see, are these correct or incorrect? If membership fees dropped, then taking the credit seems to compensate for that.

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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
I'll agree with you on two points - first, you'll continue to post similar links and buttressing comments. And NY has crappy clam chowder. Anything east of the Sagamore Bridge is questionable at best.
I would go further that there is nothing of value in NY. :P
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Old 04-30-2019, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post

If you can point to where you see that, that would be wonderful. Others, including those here, have stated the NRA has taken $25-30 million in credit while other sources have stated membership revenues dropped $35million. From the data you see, are these correct or incorrect? If membership fees dropped, then taking the credit seems to compensate for that.
Page 2 of the financial statement provided lists net assets of $24,950,203.00 for 2017 - my mistake recalling $35M. It's down from 2016, which I would expect after NRA spent $30M in the US Presidential campaign.

If I'm misunderstanding or misinterpreting I'm happy to be corrected. But $25M seems a pretty healthy number.
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Old 04-30-2019, 4:32 PM
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I read the 1099 for 2017. They spent roughly $8.5M in salaries on the top 8 employees/executives in the organization. $5.5M of that $8.5M goes to people designated as officers or directors under IRS rules. Total payroll is $49M USD including pay to executives and officers. They spent another $8.6M on the employer contributed part of pension plans or 401K style matches.
The two numbers that matter are $49M USD for payroll and $8.5M to the top 8 employees/executives.

It looks like they have roughly 1,000 employees that are paid a salary. Excluding the 8 top earners, the salaries are averaging $41,500. Averages aren't a great way to determine pay since a fair amount of employees could be part time employees and there may be a weighting outside the average, but if you accept that as a useful statistic then the NRA CEO makes about 34 times more than the average employee.

Sounds like a lot doesn't it?
The average worker in the top 350 companies in america (top 350 ranked by sales) is paid $58,000. The average CEO pay in that group of companies is paid 271 times more than the average employee. Assuming you benchmark the CEO of the NRA similarly to a successful CEO of a company then i suggest his pay isn't out of line. In fact, if you consider him successful he may even be underpaid vs. what a leader could get in private industry.

Compared to other non-profits he is paid much more. the national average is $280k for charities with over 1,000 employees.
I suggest that those non-profit CEOs aren't that easy to compare directly with NRA as i think NRA's CEO has to be of of a much higher caliber than those CEOs due to the unique challenges presented in the NRA mission.

They spent about $70M USD on services from outside organizations, membership management, postage, marketing etc. The Ackerman company took home $20M in that year so pretty good chunk of change. Doesn't seem crazy high to me although they are using up close to 20% of the budget.

anyway, my few cents from looking through their 1099. i don't see anything earth shattering in their financial data, except they take home much less money in donations than i thought they would. 127 people gave $5,000 or more in that year as a single donation.
That reads like a Bernie Sanders stump speech.

Attacking solely on amounts earned and factors of what “average” employees are paid dont carry any weight.
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Old 05-20-2019, 6:25 PM
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To my way of thinking if there was any evidence of corruption or wrong doing the totalitarian state of New York or the IRS would have found it!

As for salarys or alleged perks, we need to keep in mind some these so called RKBA advocates whine, complain and feel ripped off if a gun show vendor doesn't meet the lowest advertised online price Orin there is a parking charge.

I would bet these same people would happily lay out a couple hundred to see Elden John or M and M !

The class warfare is strong in the hearts of many these skinflints!
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Old 06-20-2019, 6:48 PM
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I posted this is the appropriate, directly relevant thread begun earlier today. But, it is quickly getting buried in the seemingly endless back and forth of...

"Wayne LaPierre and the NRA are evil personified" versus "Wayne LaPierre and the NRA are on the side of the angels"

As stated in the OP of this thread, what I'm suggesting is that rather than fortifying yourself in opposing trenches, maybe both sides need to take heed to what Kestryll seemed to be suggesting; i.e., what is it that has caused this ruckus and might that have been the intent?

In that vein, what was the source for the media-wide reports that Chris Cox has been suspended from the NRA? It all seems to come back to The New York Times article, which is based on a court case filed by the NRA versus Oliver North and a quote they got from Chris Cox. Since The New York Times was immediately disparaged as anti-gun/Liberal and, thus, not a reliable source, here's the court filing...

NRA vs. North

Relevant quote...

Quote:
E. In April 2019, North Again Acts In Bad Faith, And Again Breaches His Fiduciary Duties—Again, To Deflect Scrutiny From His Seven-Figure Contract...

48. North and his co-conspirators orchestrated these threats through, among other things, a string of text messages that are filed herewith. The text messages were produced in the Virginia Litigation by Dan Boren, an NRA board member employed by one of Ackerman’s other major clients, the Chickasaw Nation. Boren relayed the contents of Ackerman’s threatened letter to North and helped to choreograph the ultimatum they presented to Mr. LaPierre. Moreover, in email correspondence transmitted over non-NRA servers, Boren admitted his knowledge that Ackerman may have been invoicing the NRA for full salaries of employees who were actually working on the Chickasaw Nation account. The same text messages and email messages demonstrate that another errant NRA fiduciary, Chris Cox [4] —once thought by some to be a likely successor for Mr. LaPierre—participated in the Ackerman/North/Boren conspiracy...
(italic/bold emphasis mine)

The [4] is a footnote which states: Identified in text messages as CC and Chris.

I guess this is the text message.

All the documentation the New York Supreme Court has, at the moment, can be found... Here.

I can't, at the moment, find an official statement by either the NRA or NRA-ILA regarding Cox being suspended.

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Old 06-20-2019, 7:24 PM
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Freedom Week would not have happened if not for the NRA and it's official state association the CRPA. That alone makes the NRA worth it and ends the argument that the NRA doesn't do anything for CA.
Or this here in San Diego:

https://crpa.org/news/blogs/crpa-win...-gun-show-ban/

Quote:
On Monday, June 17, CRPA attorneys secured a major victory in the fight against Del Mar’s attempt from banning gun shows. Following oral arguments, federal district court judge Cathy Bencivengo issued an order granting Plaintiffs’ request for a preliminary injunction, thereby prohibiting the Del Mar Fair Board from enforcing its recently enacted moratorium to stop gun shows which took effect January 1st of this year.

Although the judge declined to issue a decision on the merits at this time, the preliminary injunction means that gun show promoters may now request dates and hold shows while the case continues.

This is a huge first victory for those involved in the case including CRPA, Second Amendment Foundation, South Bay Rod and Gun Club and all of the individual plaintiffs. Of course, none of this would be possible without support from the NRA Institute for Legislative Action.
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Old 07-05-2019, 6:22 PM
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I posted this on the Secrecy, Self-Dealing, and Greed at the NRA - Article thread in response for a request regarding documents associated with the NRA pension 'freeze' being discussed. Again, so it doesn't get lost/buried in the near-continuous call/response of "NRA Bad/NRA Good" posts, I'll include it here for reference...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34
Is there a source to the NRA people getting pensions frozen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
...I’m looking for objective evidence. The Bloomberg types don’t have it. You don’t have it.

Clearly you didn’t read what I wrote. I’m asking for EVIDENCE. Evidence is not what your buddies have told you. Evidence is not a personal anecdote by a former board member. That’s how logical, intelligent people make decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34
Are there no official minutes of the BOD meetings? And if the pension is frozen, where is the evidence? Seems that there would be multiple “victims” who would have been given official notice.
At the moment, what 'evidence' they claim to have doesn't appear to have been made public. Well, at least I haven't found the documents publicly posted, yet. The 'source' for this information seems to have been based on an NPR piece back in May and is based on an anonymous leak, claiming to have access to document(s), and interpretations of that/those document(s) which don't appear to have been published.

As Leaks Show Lavish NRA Spending, Former Staff Detail Poor Conditions At Nonprofit

Quote:
Documents raise questions about NRA pension plan

Even as the organization pays its top executives high wages, the future prospects for those NRA employees who qualify for a pension are worsening.

NPR obtained a copy of 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents from a source with direct access to them. Brian Mittendorf, who chairs the Department of Accounting at Ohio State University, helped NPR review these documents.

They show that the NRA's pension obligations were approximately $134 million at the beginning of this year, but they had only set aside $93 million to meet those obligations.

They also show that the NRA's pension situation has become more troubling in the past few years. There are 786 people in the NRA's pension plan, of which 223 are currently employed by the organization.

Buried at the bottom of one page of the pension report, in a bullet point, the NRA said it had implemented a freeze to their pension plan in 2018. This means that even current employees who are in the plan can no longer accrue new benefits despite continuing to work for the organization.

"In effect, it is the most an organization can do to cut pension benefits without completely terminating its plan," Mittendorf said.

The freeze in benefits for employees who participate in the pension plan is in contrast to a one-time $3,767,345 supplemental retirement payment LaPierre received in 2015, according to the NRA's public disclosures.

"It's indicative that the organization has not set aside sufficient funds to cover its rank-and-file employees' retirements," Mittendorf said. "That means that the organization's financial trouble puts these rank-and-file employees' future at risk. Something would need to change at the organization to cover them. ... The people at the top are going to be financially secure. It's the rank-and-file employees that are at risk."
That doesn't make any of this true or false. It simply means I haven't found, thus far, any 'pension documents' posted. The closest I've come is an NRA Audit for 2017 which you can set against the 2018 report in the The Washington Post piece linked to by thmsmgnm above (in the other thread). It does provide information on several things, including "Retirement Plans" on page 21 of 26 (pages 19 - 22 of the actual report).

There is also THIS PAGE with downloadable "leaked documents;" including Andy Lander's letter. There is also an "Image" document (2 pages) containing an NRA Funding Notice for 2018 NRA Retirement Plan.

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-05-2019 at 6:53 PM..
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Old 07-07-2019, 5:46 PM
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Here is the Everytown For Gun Safety Complaint/Letter, filed in April, to the IRS.

Note that most of the allegations set forth are linked to news articles, with some pointing to the 990's. In many respects, there is a good deal of duplication from what was linked to in a quote I provided in the OP...

Quote:
An accompanying report highlights what Everytown calls the “scandals and investigations rocking the NRA,” including a recent New Yorker exposé detailing how a small group of NRA executives, contractors and vendors “extracted hundreds of millions of dollars from the nonprofit’s budget.” Everytown, in turn, filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service challenging the NRA’s tax-exempt status...
But, it gives you something else to look at in terms of primary documentation... Primary documentation that is based significantly on secondary sources which are based, largely, on the 990's.

Again, I'm simply attempting to provide the source documents for a good deal of this ruckus.

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-07-2019 at 6:05 PM.. Reason: grammar correction
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Old 07-07-2019, 9:29 PM
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Thanks. I will check out the links.
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Old 07-08-2019, 8:08 AM
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Everytown is looking out for the NRA members as per the above letter, Ya right. When pigs fly.
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Old 07-08-2019, 8:28 AM
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Old 07-08-2019, 9:39 AM
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Everytown is looking out for the NRA members as per the above letter, Ya right. When pigs fly.
No Sir you have this one wrong! Everytown ( Mike Bloomberg) just wants the NRA to be responsible and more effective, that's his way of helping us!

Along the same line of thinking King George 3 burned town the entire city of Falmouth Maine to protect people, from all the carnage caused by private weapons !
https://allthingsliberty.com/2015/09...se-of-hampton/

"A small committee was hastily formed to appeal to Lieutenant Mowat and he agreed to delay the bombardment until the next morning if the townspeople delivered up their arms. A handful of weapons were delivered in the evening as a gesture of good will. This prompted Lieutenant Mowat to proclaim,

"If the town would surrender their cannon and musketry, and give hostages for their future good behaviour, he would delay the execution of his orders till he could represent their situation to the Admiral, and intercede for their final deliverance"
Nearly 1,000 people in Falmouth were left homeless..."

"To their … astonishment, they found that no part of the Inhabitants [had] assembled in the morning, [to hand over their muskets] and that the whole town was then in the greatest confusion, with many women and children still remaining in it..."

Friends the person or entity that want to disarm are exactly the same throughout history ! Disregard EVERYTHING FROM ANY ANTIGUN MEDIA OR PERSONS!!!!
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:49 AM
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I looked through them, Trapped. Interesting to see what they are alleging. Hopefully, it is all nonsense and we can move on. I hope in due time these allegations are specifically addressed.
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Old 07-08-2019, 1:29 PM
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Offwidth-

I asked in another thread or this one (can’t remember which) for the proof of these accusations. Former BOD members said NRA pensions were frozen. They accused Wayne of misnaming finances. I asked for proof and there are the links that have been sent. I agree, these are accusations at this point. They should be fairly easy to prove or disprove.

My stance has always been that the protection of the 2nd amendment is what is most important. It’s more important than Wayne. It’s more important than the NRA. I do believe a healthy NRA is essential to that protection, so we as members need to hold the NRA to the highest standard.

Ultimately, I want the NRA to address these issues head on. If they are false, which I hope they are, it shows how deceitful the anti-gunners are. If they are true, we clean house and make the NRA better. If the NRA fails, we lose the biggest tool in our toolbox.
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Old 07-08-2019, 9:43 PM
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I asked in another thread or this one (can’t remember which) for the proof of these accusations.
Your legitimate query began here, in the Secrecy, Self-Dealing, and Greed at the N.R.A. - Article thread. I responded on that thread, then, as the post on this thread stated, so it doesn't get lost/buried in the near-continuous call/response of "NRA Bad/NRA Good" posts, I'll include it here for reference. Clearly, it got quickly lost/buried over there and you picked up on it in this thread. It's precisely the reason I started this thread and have tried, insofar as possible, to keep it 'clean.'

As I've said previously... Let's keep the utter speculation, personal attacks, defend the NRA at all costs, "I don't like LaPierre/the NRA needs an house cleaning," et al. posts to a minimum. You have umpteen other threads actively engaged in that. I've tried to keep this thread focused on some form of 'source documentation' instead of yet another, unproductive, argumentative (flame war) exchange. Let's try to maintain it that way.

It's up to you.

Since it's getting buried in extraneous stuff, here are the source documents presented thus far in this thread. Forgive the copy/paste which presents some of this without the full context, but I don't have time at the moment to turn it into a flowing post...

Quote:
An accompanying report highlights what Everytown calls the “scandals and investigations rocking the NRA,” including a recent New Yorker exposé detailing how a small group of NRA executives, contractors and vendors “extracted hundreds of millions of dollars from the nonprofit’s budget.” Everytown, in turn, filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service challenging the NRA’s tax-exempt status...
Here is the Everytown For Gun Safety Complaint/Letter, filed in April, to the IRS.

Then this site might provide you some answers regarding the NRA's taxes, at least from 2004 - 2016. (This site has the same forms, but from only 2014 - 2016.)

Here's a copy of the 2017 Form 990 for the NRA.

The above 990's can now be found on Calguns.

HERE IS LaPierre's LETTER

Rather than seeking personal opinions, why not look at the bylaws? Here's the 2016 version.

NRA vs. Ackerman-McQueen and Mercury Group

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeAuMaN
This is the report (at least from August 2017) https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/...ugust-2017.pdf
Here's NRA President Cors' rationale as presented in 2017...

It has been shutdown subsequent to the original post; but... This was something that came up last year... Who watches the NRA’s TV channel?

Oliver North is out as NRA president, following a leadership dispute with longtime CEO Wayne LaPierre

Here is a video of North's letter as it is read to the meeting.

There's a lot of back and forth out there about "NRA Members" challenging the organization leadership. Here's a video by Rob Pincus, as to why...



Basically, the desire was for more transparency in terms of what is happening; i.e., that it's "okay" to have an open discussion about the problems, concerns, financial issues, etc.

As he cites in an associated piece posted on AmmoLand...

Quote:
Please SHARE this throughout the gun community and make sure that no one (including those with an agenda from outside our community) spins our actions to suit their narrative!
In that vein, what was the source for the media-wide reports that Chris Cox has been suspended from the NRA? It all seems to come back to The New York Times article, which is based on a court case filed by the NRA versus Oliver North and a quote they got from Chris Cox. Since The New York Times was immediately disparaged as anti-gun/Liberal and, thus, not a reliable source, here's the court filing...

NRA vs. North

Relevant quote...

Quote:
E. In April 2019, North Again Acts In Bad Faith, And Again Breaches His Fiduciary Duties—Again, To Deflect Scrutiny From His Seven-Figure Contract...

48. North and his co-conspirators orchestrated these threats through, among other things, a string of text messages that are filed herewith. The text messages were produced in the Virginia Litigation by Dan Boren, an NRA board member employed by one of Ackerman’s other major clients, the Chickasaw Nation. Boren relayed the contents of Ackerman’s threatened letter to North and helped to choreograph the ultimatum they presented to Mr. LaPierre. Moreover, in email correspondence transmitted over non-NRA servers, Boren admitted his knowledge that Ackerman may have been invoicing the NRA for full salaries of employees who were actually working on the Chickasaw Nation account. The same text messages and email messages demonstrate that another errant NRA fiduciary, Chris Cox [4] —once thought by some to be a likely successor for Mr. LaPierre—participated in the Ackerman/North/Boren conspiracy...
(italic/bold emphasis mine)

The [4] is a footnote which states: Identified in text messages as CC and Chris.

I guess this is the text message.

All the documentation the New York Supreme Court has, at the moment, can be found... Here.

I can't, at the moment, find an official statement by either the NRA or NRA-ILA regarding Cox being suspended. As of 26 June, AmmoLand posted a piece declaring...

Quote:
...After the allegations came to light Cox stated to The New York Times...

“The allegations against me are offensive and patently false. For over 24 years I have been a loyal and effective leader in this organization,” Cox said. “My efforts have always been focused on serving the members of the National Rifle Association, and I will continue to focus all of my energy on carrying out our core mission of defending the Second Amendment.”

...Neither Cox nor the NRA has given statements on the resignation.
As regards NRA pension funds being 'frozen'... At the moment, what 'evidence' they claim to have doesn't appear to have been made public. Well, at least I haven't found the documents publicly posted, yet. The 'source' for this information seems to have been based on an NPR piece back in May and is based on an anonymous leak, claiming to have access to document(s), and interpretations of that/those document(s) which don't appear to have been published.

As Leaks Show Lavish NRA Spending, Former Staff Detail Poor Conditions At Nonprofit

Quote:
Documents raise questions about NRA pension plan

Even as the organization pays its top executives high wages, the future prospects for those NRA employees who qualify for a pension are worsening.

NPR obtained a copy of 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents from a source with direct access to them. Brian Mittendorf, who chairs the Department of Accounting at Ohio State University, helped NPR review these documents.

They show that the NRA's pension obligations were approximately $134 million at the beginning of this year, but they had only set aside $93 million to meet those obligations.

They also show that the NRA's pension situation has become more troubling in the past few years. There are 786 people in the NRA's pension plan, of which 223 are currently employed by the organization.

Buried at the bottom of one page of the pension report, in a bullet point, the NRA said it had implemented a freeze to their pension plan in 2018. This means that even current employees who are in the plan can no longer accrue new benefits despite continuing to work for the organization.

"In effect, it is the most an organization can do to cut pension benefits without completely terminating its plan," Mittendorf said.

The freeze in benefits for employees who participate in the pension plan is in contrast to a one-time $3,767,345 supplemental retirement payment LaPierre received in 2015, according to the NRA's public disclosures.

"It's indicative that the organization has not set aside sufficient funds to cover its rank-and-file employees' retirements," Mittendorf said. "That means that the organization's financial trouble puts these rank-and-file employees' future at risk. Something would need to change at the organization to cover them. ... The people at the top are going to be financially secure. It's the rank-and-file employees that are at risk."
That doesn't make any of this true or false. It simply means I haven't found, thus far, any 'pension documents' posted. The closest I've come is an NRA Audit for 2017 which you can set against the 2018 report in the The Washington Post piece linked to by thmsmgnm above (in the other thread). It does provide information on several things, including "Retirement Plans" on page 21 of 26 (pages 19 - 22 of the actual report).

There is also THIS PAGE with downloadable "leaked documents;" including Andy Lander's letter. There is also an "Image" document (2 pages) containing an NRA Funding Notice for 2018 NRA Retirement Plan.

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-08-2019 at 9:59 PM..
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Old 07-09-2019, 8:25 AM
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Dear TrappedinCalifornia:

When you start relying and quoting Everytown For Gun Safety and Washington Post, Bloomberg and Bezos anti-gun mouthpieces, as your supporting evidence, on anything related to the NRA and the Second Amendment, your own credibility goes out of the window and you yourself become just a shill for gun control.

Maybe you should now quote Obama, Kamala Harris and Swallowwell on meaning of the Second Amendment and reasonable gun control. It may get you brownie points with liberal crowd, but it will not get you far on this forum.

Sincerely,

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Old 07-09-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MyOdessa View Post
Dear TrappedinCalifornia:

When you start relying and quoting Everytown For Gun Safety and Washington Post, Bloomberg and Bezos anti-gun mouthpieces, as your supporting evidence, on anything related to the NRA and the Second Amendment, your own credibility goes out of the window and you yourself become just a shill for gun control.

Maybe you should now quote Obama, Kamala Harris and Swallowwell on meaning of the Second Amendment and reasonable gun control. It may get you brownie points with liberal crowd, but it will not get you far on this forum.

Sincerely,

/sign.
Sir although you make some good points. There is another side to consider and to do so I will use an analogy based on scripture, that took place during the reign of King Saul.
1 Samuel 13:19 " Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philisitines had said, otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!"

Now while some would say thats not right, we need to consider the large number of sword accidents that happened back then. Kids were getting cut, playing around with them even spreading peanut butter and just being irresponsible kids !
The spear issue was even worse ! So many mishaps with these spears that the compassionate Philistines just decided between the swords an spears, in order to keep the Hebrews safe it was better to outlaw blacksmiths to protect that ancient society.

So when you belittle and denigrate the New York times, Bloomberg Etc, Etc remember they are in good company with the compassionate,Philistines who only wanted the best for the people of Israel !

For the record the next King, David used an effective weapon (sling) to kill a giant named Goliath ! Everyone one of should fight against these modern day Philistine propaganda wings as outlined by our NRA list of those who proudly proclaim themselves ANTI GUN !
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Old 07-09-2019, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOdessa View Post
Dear TrappedinCalifornia:

When you start relying and quoting Everytown For Gun Safety and Washington Post, Bloomberg and Bezos anti-gun mouthpieces, as your supporting evidence, on anything related to the NRA and the Second Amendment, your own credibility goes out of the window and you yourself become just a shill for gun control.

Maybe you should now quote Obama, Kamala Harris and Swallowwell on meaning of the Second Amendment and reasonable gun control. It may get you brownie points with liberal crowd, but it will not get you far on this forum.

Sincerely,

/sign.
Maybe you should try reading the thread (or save time and peruse the links in the summation I strung together last night) rather than making personal attacks based on erroneous assumptions?

Who is using it as 'evidence against the NRA?'

The source documents I've provided are what is being used by Bloomberg, the media, et al. as the basis for the stories being pushed. That's why I noted in the OP that even Kestryll observed, Bloomberg appears to be in the middle of this; where he cites The Trace as the source. The problem is, those articles may have begun the ad campaign 'spin,' but they are not 'the source.'

The 'source' materials are things such as the 990's, the complaint Everytown filed with the IRS, the lawsuits, etc. Just like the latest accusations regarding the 'freeze' on NRA pension funds. It was a report done by Mittendorf of Ohio State. He didn't 'dream it up' out of nothing. The claim is: "NPR obtained a copy of 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents from a source with direct access to them. Brian Mittendorf, who chairs the Department of Accounting at Ohio State University, helped NPR review these documents."

I cannot find a publicly posted document directly related to the 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents; but, I provided what I could find. I did provide the 2017 financial report, added the link provided by another member to the 2018 report for comparison, then linked to a document cache which appeared to include potential relevant documents. If you read Mittendorf's December piece, the documents he appears to be relying on are the 2017 documents I link to.

In other words, rather than relying on the 'spin' being provided, I'm providing the source document from which the 'spin' is being created. In doing so, it allows members to look TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL and make their own evaluations regarding whether there is/are problem(s), whether there is any validity to the 'spin' being presented (by both sides), and come to their own conclusions. If doing that is the equivalent of quoting Obama, Swalwell, Harris, etc., then I'm as 'guilty' as Calguns/Kestryll in that a whole new section of the site was created (likely started prior to my posting the 990's) and making it publicly visible AFTER I (and others) started linking to the same 990's.

So, blindly making personal attacks may get you 'brownie points' with certain segments of the membership; but, demonstrating your total lack of understanding of the thread, what is being provided, the actual respect being afforded the membership in allowing them to make their own decisions using the actual materials being referenced by the 'spin doctors,' and making apparent the willful blindness you and several others seem to prefer in defending individuals in the hierarchy of the NRA rather than expending any effort to exonerate them based on the materials to hand says more about your stance than mine.

If you just cannot bring yourself to let others make up their own minds, based on the material people like Bloomberg are citing as the 'source material' for their claims, then I would argue that you are the one(s) uncertain in your own stance on the issue. If you cannot abide the actual materials and rely on speculation, personal attack, derision, etc. to 'defend' the NRA and won't even address the materials being cited (court filings, IRS filings, etc.) in an effort to 'un-spin the spin,' then you are guilty of making willfully blind loyalty the litmus test for gun ownership, NRA membership, Calguns membership, et al.

I'm not one who is comfortable with that. Neither are many others. I'd rather fight back based on knowledge instead of hysterics. If you prefer the latter, as I said, there are umpteen threads where such is being actively pursued. As I said... Let's keep the utter speculation, personal attacks, defend the NRA at all costs, "I don't like LaPierre/the NRA needs an house cleaning," et al. posts in this thread to a minimum so that these source materials don't get buried in diatribe. I've tried to keep this thread focused on some form of 'source documentation' instead of yet another, unproductive, argumentative (flame war) exchange. Let's try to maintain it that way.

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Old 07-10-2019, 8:51 AM
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If it comes from a sworn enemy to liberty. It should be dismissed, disregarded and not read viewed or otherwise credited.

I found out long ago these people who would steal our liberties are so diabolical and clever that the only tactic is to dismiss them. Yup 100% invisible.

FWIW these entire baseless accusations about the NRA. ALL came from ANTIGUN,ANTI AMERICAN sources and look at the arguments and name calling that occurred because of these ANTI RIGHTS, ANTI AMERICAN, ENTITIES were #1 read #2 posted #3 credited!

Every day Rush Limbaugh on his radio show covers most democrat media stories. Rush is always correct and his show is entertaining and informative !
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Old 07-10-2019, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
Maybe you should try reading the thread (or save time and peruse the links in the summation I strung together last night) rather than making personal attacks based on erroneous assumptions?

Who is using it as 'evidence against the NRA?'

The source documents I've provided are what is being used by Bloomberg, the media, et al. as the basis for the stories being pushed. That's why I noted in the OP that even Kestryll observed, Bloomberg appears to be in the middle of this; where he cites The Trace as the source. The problem is, those articles may have begun the ad campaign 'spin,' but they are not 'the source.'

The 'source' materials are things such as the 990's, the complaint Everytown filed with the IRS, the lawsuits, etc. Just like the latest accusations regarding the 'freeze' on NRA pension funds. It was a report done by Mittendorf of Ohio State. He didn't 'dream it up' out of nothing. The claim is: "NPR obtained a copy of 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents from a source with direct access to them. Brian Mittendorf, who chairs the Department of Accounting at Ohio State University, helped NPR review these documents."

I cannot find a publicly posted document directly related to the 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents; but, I provided what I could find. I did provide the 2017 financial report, added the link provided by another member to the 2018 report for comparison, then linked to a document cache which appeared to include potential relevant documents. If you read Mittendorf's December piece, the documents he appears to be relying on are the 2017 documents I link to.

In other words, rather than relying on the 'spin' being provided, I'm providing the source document from which the 'spin' is being created. In doing so, it allows members to look TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL and make their own evaluations regarding whether there is/are problem(s), whether there is any validity to the 'spin' being presented (by both sides), and come to their own conclusions. If doing that is the equivalent of quoting Obama, Swalwell, Harris, etc., then I'm as 'guilty' as Calguns/Kestryll in that a whole new section of the site was created (likely started prior to my posting the 990's) and making it publicly visible AFTER I (and others) started linking to the same 990's.

So, blindly making personal attacks may get you 'brownie points' with certain segments of the membership; but, demonstrating your total lack of understanding of the thread, what is being provided, the actual respect being afforded the membership in allowing them to make their own decisions using the actual materials being referenced by the 'spin doctors,' and making apparent the willful blindness you and several others seem to prefer in defending individuals in the hierarchy of the NRA rather than expending any effort to exonerate them based on the materials to hand says more about your stance than mine.

If you just cannot bring yourself to let others make up their own minds, based on the material people like Bloomberg are citing as the 'source material' for their claims, then I would argue that you are the one(s) uncertain in your own stance on the issue. If you cannot abide the actual materials and rely on speculation, personal attack, derision, etc. to 'defend' the NRA and won't even address the materials being cited (court filings, IRS filings, etc.) in an effort to 'un-spin the spin,' then you are guilty of making willfully blind loyalty the litmus test for gun ownership, NRA membership, Calguns membership, et al.

I'm not one who is comfortable with that. Neither are many others. I'd rather fight back based on knowledge instead of hysterics. If you prefer the latter, as I said, there are umpteen threads where such is being actively pursued. As I said... Let's keep the utter speculation, personal attacks, defend the NRA at all costs, "I don't like LaPierre/the NRA needs an house cleaning," et al. posts in this thread to a minimum so that these source materials don't get buried in diatribe. I've tried to keep this thread focused on some form of 'source documentation' instead of yet another, unproductive, argumentative (flame war) exchange. Let's try to maintain it that way.
Well said. I appreciate the primary source materials being linked in the discussion as these are absolutely relevant to identifying the problems and coming up with a logical solution. Just because secondary sources (biased news sites and organizations) also refer to these primary source materials does not in any way invalidate the materials nor make the facts within them any less relevant or true.
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Old 07-10-2019, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Well said. I appreciate the primary source materials being linked in the discussion as these are absolutely relevant to identifying the problems and coming up with a logical solution. Just because secondary sources (biased news sites and organizations) also refer to these primary source materials does not in any way invalidate the materials nor make the facts within them any less relevant or true.
An enemy will NEVER present issues factually . This is a non story from day one and NOT ONE REPUTABLE SOURCE has referred to the internal struggle, which is branded as corruption by the enemies of American freedom !

Kestryll posted the entire situation w/o using any anti rights media and he got it correct.

So you all can chase your tails worried about Waynes clothes or salary or whatever. We are going the range and subtly promote NRA membership and upgrades.
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Old 07-10-2019, 6:27 PM
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Returning to primary sources and the question of retirement freezes...

Here's the NRA's Form 5500 for 2016 related to their 401(k).

I'm not as certain about this one as it's not a copy of the document, but here's a site which has, apparently, transcribed the same information, from the same form for their 2017 filing. They give the plan a 79 out of 100 rating. (Be forwarned... It appears the site only allows you to access it so many times without providing an e-mail address.)

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-10-2019 at 6:30 PM..
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:38 PM
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Well here is some more information from the NY State Court Filings. Including a run down of the items charged by Wayne to AckMac. Also include not seen before internal communications leading up to the Ollie North vs Wayne LaPierre showdown during the NRA Annual Meeting.

Included was a letter from then NRA President Oliver North call for a full review of the events leading up to the lawsuit against AckMac, concerns about the $24 million paid to Brewer law firm. The intent to establish a committee to review association practices and bring in an outside expert to advise the NRA BoD.

https://t.co/oESFBZ11Zt

Stephen Gutowski @StephenGutowski
5h5 hours ago
North says LaPierre has "total dictatorial control over the NRA, its Audit Committee, its Executive Committee, its Nominating Committee, and its Board of Directors" in the filing.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:51 PM
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Well here is some more information from the NY State Court Filings...
Your post, for whatever reason, wasn't showing when I began mine below. Thanks. That's precisely the kind of documentation this thread is for.

Both your links and mine are to the same materials; though mine link to some of them individually. I included the link to the New York Supreme Court (as I did in an earlier post to this thread) so that members can view everything available and the case itself. However, I did wish to illustrate how such documents can be referenced, then 'spun,' by linking to the US News & World Report piece. (Note the 'headlines' both U.S. News & World Report and you indicate Gutowski provide.) Members are welcome to view whichever link or set of links and come to their own conclusions.

NRA vs. North has a new, media component...

Oliver North Says NRA Is Smearing Him to Avoid Scrutiny

Quote:
Oliver North, the retired Marine who was pushed out as president of the National Rifle Association in a dispute within the gun-rights group, said in court documents filed Thursday that he was thwarted when he tried to raise alarm bells about alleged misspending and denied that he tried to oust the organization's longtime top executive...
(bold/italics emphasis mine)

In fairness, toward the end of that article, it is noted...

Quote:
...In a statement issued through the Brewer law firm, North's successor, Carolyn Meadows, denied that North was blocked from serving a second term as president. Rather, she said, he stepped away after he tried to "extort" LaPierre and she was a witness to the "ultimatum" he delivered...
So... If we go to the New York Supreme Court website, enter the Index Number... We find several submissions made by North. (To access that index, you need to enter the index number - 653577/2019 - and, at some point, you may have to enter characters to prove you're not a bot.) Among those submissions are...

Defendant's Answer and Counterclaims
18 April 2019 Letter from North to NRA's Frazer and Cotton
25 April 2019 Memo from North to NRA Executive Committee
12 June 2019 Letter from North's Counsel to NRA General Counsel
6 May 2019 North Indemnification Request to NRA
6 June 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification
1 July 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-12-2019 at 12:28 AM..
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