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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 04-20-2019, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divert_fuse View Post
Those who wish to fail must first prevent their friends from helping them.
If one doesn't believe NRA is an organization worth joining I'm unconvinced those same folks consider it worth saving, nor that they are they acting out of concern for its members. The only time we hear from them is when they criticize and tear down. Which isn't a particularly difficult task. No one fails at casting stones, it's building something that's tough.
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  #42  
Old 04-20-2019, 5:47 PM
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People have to recognize that we are in an all out war over the Second Amendment, and one of the targets has become the NRA.

I have read all of the above, and am surprised that not one of you mentioned the fact that Everytown has filed a formal complaint with the IRS challenging the NRA's tax exempt status. https://everytown.org/wp-content/upl...ter-to-IRS.pdf Viewed in this light, one can see that the battle against the NRA is multifaceted.

We all know what the Governor of NY wants to do with the NRA and its members--destroy it, and publicly, by undermining its fundraising activities. He turned an enforcement issue against the insurance broker (for violating the Surplus lines law) into an attack on the NRA for selling "murder insurance" (hypocritically, after a bill was filed that would have forced gun owners to procure $1 million liability insurance policies).
This "article" is an attempt to publicly discredit the organization.
Politicians are running on platforms declaring their intent to destroy the NRA (e.g.Booker).
Everytown is invading states and state legislatures in order to pass an anti-gun agenda that will not pass Congress at this time.
Meanwhile a former Clinton confidant is pushing a petition to have Congress investigate Kavanaugh for perjury, and it isn't just because they fear how he might vote on abortion, but because they know how he will vote on 2A rights.

Other than the NRA and the SAF, can anyone name any organization that is spending as much money fighting for gun rights in the courts? [Maybe I am uninformed, but I don't think the GOA does anything but lobbying.] Is there any wonder the leftist crowd wants to kill it, when, with the current make-up of the supreme court, we are on the brink of a major revision to Second Amendment law?
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  #43  
Old 04-20-2019, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
If one doesn't believe NRA is an organization worth joining I'm unconvinced those same folks consider it worth saving, nor that they are they acting out of concern for its members.
This whole line of argument is a cheap "gotcha." Its purpose is to shut down criticism. This is a mistake, since criticism is useful to you. Why wouldn't nonmembers consider it worth saving? Do you really think the typical nonmember is a nonmember out of hostility to the NRA, as opposed to simply being cheap or not the sort of person who joins political organizations? I don't.
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2019, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
From the article:

"The upshot of that battle was that Wayne won, Dad lost, and the fast-and-loose money games continued and just got worse. Charlton Heston was brought in to bump Dad from the leadership, and Wayne’s compensation rose rapidly from about $250,000 a year to almost $1,000,000.00. In the latest available IRS report from 2017, LaPierre’s total compensation was reported at $1.4 million, or about $117,000 per month, and a couple of years before that, he also got a distribution from his retirement fund of about $4 million, for a total compensation of more than $5 million that year."

Not much slant in that article, right?

Non-members and poseurs certainly spending alot of time and going out of their way to spread negative information from partisan and anti-gun sources. I guess that's easier than digging in to those numbers.

Will Moms Demand Action be offered for comment next?[/QUOTE]

Very reminiscent of Chelsea whining about TRUMP's big win,,,,,,,,,,
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2019, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by divert_fuse View Post
This whole line of argument is a cheap "gotcha." Its purpose is to shut down criticism. This is a mistake, since criticism is useful to you. Why wouldn't nonmembers consider it worth saving? Do you really think the typical nonmember is a nonmember out of hostility to the NRA, as opposed to simply being cheap or not the sort of person who joins political organizations? I don't.
I didn't edit your post to tell you what you meant - you'll perhaps return the courtesy? Try as I might, I couldn't find the word "hostile" in my previous post. Hostility is not a necessary condition for being critical.

Whether one is cheap, indifferent or has a spouse that dislikes guns, etc isn't the issue. What matters is that while they can't motivate themselves to join an organization, they somehow work up the muster to criticize. It strikes me as intellectually incomplete to suppose they have a genuine interest in helping that organization. This of course presumes the organization's interests coincide with their own. That they do not is often the true reason for criticism, something which is left deliberately unsaid.
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  #46  
Old 04-20-2019, 8:42 PM
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This right here. Right out of the LEFTs playbook, Destroy your opponents reputation to separate them from their base.

Only an idiot wouldn't see this for what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Cause View Post
There are several warning signs that this is another Anti NRA hitpiece
from the Anti Gun Left.

The New Yorker is a Left Wing publication...
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-yorker

The author is Mike Spies. Name sound familiar ?

Mike Spies is a Staff Writer for The Trace
He specializes in NRA hit pieces.
https://www.thetrace.org/author/michael-spies/

The Trace was started by Bloomberg’s Everytown for Gun Safety to
help with his efforts to bring down the NRA.

Also, There has been bad blood between Gura and the NRA over
How the landmark 2A cases were initially handled, so Gura seems
to like painting them in a negative light when he can.

Finally, Mr Gura has our respect for Winning two landmark cases
for the 2A, but he is not infallible.

He was Dead Wrong about Trump:

https://reason.com/2016/08/01/is-sco...-support-trump


If we had followed Mr Guras advice, and not supported Trump, it
Would have been an unmitigated disaster for our Nation.

Until more research into the veracity of this article is done, I
would advise everyone to take it with a skeptical grain of salt.



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We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.
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  #47  
Old 04-21-2019, 2:03 AM
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All those posters whining about this being a liberal hit piece, claiming only an idiot or a poseur would believe it… You would do well to open your eyes to the reality. Some of the responses above remind me of liberals with Trump Drangement syndrome… No matter how you point out the real facts, people refuse to believe them. Don't confuse the messenger with the message.

The message seems to be, NRA has engaged in gross Financial mismanagement and self-dealing. With your recent disclosures, their malfeasance is coming to light. You can ignore it if you want, but you can't criticize people just for talking about it.

The fact that NRA is now locked in a lawsuit with their longtime PR firm should indicate the high level of dysfunction.
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  #48  
Old 04-21-2019, 2:05 AM
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PS-very rarely does the New Yorker have to publish retractions, because they spent a huge amount of time fact checking before they publish something. They are unique that way, and again… Ignore this article at your own peril.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2019, 3:27 AM
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
I didn't edit your post to tell you what you meant - you'll perhaps return the courtesy? Try as I might, I couldn't find the word "hostile" in my previous post. Hostility is not a necessary condition for being critical.
I apologize if I mischaracterized your position. I read you as saying that there was substantial likelihood that nonmember critics would be happy to be rid of the NRA. I didn't think shortening this to "hostile" was misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
What matters is that while they can't motivate themselves to join an organization, they somehow work up the muster to criticize. It strikes me as intellectually incomplete to suppose they have a genuine interest in helping that organization.
When somebody is giving you good advice--which you are able to recognize as good advice--you don't need to ask if they're the sort of person you can trust. That only comes into play when you're uncertain.

Remember: We're all just disembodied voices on the internet. I don't know whether any of you are actually NRA members, whatever you say. I have no reason to assume you have a genuine interest in supporting gun rights or the NRA. Perhaps some of you are anti-gun spies. But it doesn't matter. All I can do is listen to what you say, and check if it seems sensible in light of my knowledge and experience. And this is all I need to do, since it doesn't matter if one's promoting bad ideas because he's a spy or just a fool.

Beware of reasons to avoid thinking.
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  #51  
Old 04-21-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
All those posters whining about this being a liberal hit piece, claiming only an idiot or a poseur would believe it… You would do well to open your eyes to the reality. Some of the responses above remind me of liberals with Trump Drangement syndrome… No matter how you point out the real facts, people refuse to believe them. Don't confuse the messenger with the message.
The messenger is important, but it may not be important in the way people think. Many of us are interested in the NRA, but who here has interested himself in the state of NRA's finances or evidence of corruption? Probably not many of us. It's natural that since the NRA is on our side, we don't go looking for weak points. Maybe we should have, but that's not how people are. You go looking for weak points in order to attack.

It's not that the left said this, so disregard it. It's that, if it was true, who would you expect to dig that up? The membership who loves the NRA, or the anti-gun left who hates it? It's only worth your time if you're an enemy.

I think it bears repeating that this can be to our advantage. The article points out that NRA board members tried to push back against some of the stuff in the article and were stymied. In other words, there is a core of good in the NRA. We could take this as an opportunity to reform the NRA, have it come out with even more effectiveness and support and respect. Even if you think I or other critics are cynically attempting to harm the NRA, you could *still* improve it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
The message seems to be, NRA has engaged in gross Financial mismanagement and self-dealing.
Right, and our response should not be "ENEMY ACTION!" but "Really? Let's check."
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by divert_fuse View Post



Right, and our response should not be "ENEMY ACTION!" but "Really? Let's check."
Exactly, if you care about gun rights you have to care about the health of the NRA. They are not perfect, and there are thankfully some other groups worthy of our support. But none of them have the structure, experience, and clout of the NRA.

I am a longtime member of the NRA and CRPA. but from now on, anything I give to the NRA will go straight to the ILA.

Also, I'm waiting for the NRA to issue a response or rebuttal to that article. I'm not holding my breath though.
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  #53  
Old 04-21-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
All those posters whining about this being a liberal hit piece, claiming only an idiot or a poseur would believe it… You would do well to open your eyes to the reality. Some of the responses above remind me of liberals with Trump Drangement syndrome… No matter how you point out the real facts, people refuse to believe them. Don't confuse the messenger with the message.

The message seems to be, NRA has engaged in gross Financial mismanagement and self-dealing. With your recent disclosures, their malfeasance is coming to light. You can ignore it if you want, but you can't criticize people just for talking about it.

The fact that NRA is now locked in a lawsuit with their longtime PR firm should indicate the high level of dysfunction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
PS-very rarely does the New Yorker have to publish retractions, because they spent a huge amount of time fact checking before they publish something. They are unique that way, and again… Ignore this article at your own peril.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
Exactly, if you care about gun rights you have to care about the health of the NRA. They are not perfect, and there are thankfully some other groups worthy of our support. But none of them have the structure, experience, and clout of the NRA.

I am a longtime member of the NRA and CRPA. but from now on, anything I give to the NRA will go straight to the ILA.

Also, I'm waiting for the NRA to issue a response or rebuttal to that article. I'm not holding my breath though.
Only one person was perfect. But it is a typical leftist agenda to demonize the faults of their enemies while ignoring their own. Conservatives will not stop being conservatives because Trump might be human and 2A Supporters are not going to stop supporting the NRA because it is run by humans. We don't support the NRA because the walk on water or turn that water to wine.

No other organization can or does what the NRA does for us. This article attacking the NRA is just more proof the left fears them. ILA is not the only way we benefit from the NRA. To think so is to ignore reality. ILA did not gain us two Constitutional seats on the SCOTUS and 100's of Constitutional seats in other courts. . Without them ILA would be powerless. Pedal your horseship else where I'm not buying it.
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
Americans vs. Democrats
We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross


We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.

Last edited by 71MUSTY; 04-21-2019 at 11:31 AM..
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Only one person was perfect. But it is a typical leftist agenda to demonize the faults of their enemies while ignoring their own. Conservatives will not stop being conservatives because Trump might be human and 2A Supporters are not going to stop supporting the NRA because it is run by humans. We don't support the NRA because the walk on water or turn that water to wine.

No other organization can or does what the NRA does for us. This article attacking the NRA is just more proof the left fears them. ILA is not the only way we benefit from the NRA. To think so is to ignore reality. ILA did not gain us two Constitutional seats on the SCOTUS and 100's of Constitutional seats in other courts. . Without them ILA would be powerless. Pedal your horseship else where I'm not buying it.
No need to get upset, partner. I'm not peddling anything, so watch your mouth.

You can support whoever you want, but I encourage you to not merely dismiss the very disturbing information in that article, just because it was put forth by people you consider to be leftists. That's exactly what leftists do. I think you're actually a FUD, by the way you attack others and encourage willful ignorance. Don't be a FUD.

The rest of your tirade doesn't really make much sense. Have a nice Easter.
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  #55  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:48 PM
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Musty: for what it's worth.....dead on and thanks for saying it!!
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2019, 1:01 PM
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Default Secrecy, Self-Dealing, and Greed at the N.R.A - Article

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Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
Musty: for what it's worth.....dead on and thanks for saying it!!
Oh no, more FUD! Anyone who is not interested in the long-term health of the NRA is an enemy of the Second Amendment. Sad to find this FUD on calguns.

Last edited by Suresh*t; 04-21-2019 at 1:04 PM..
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2019, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by divert_fuse View Post
I apologize if I mischaracterized your position. I read you as saying that there was substantial likelihood that nonmember critics would be happy to be rid of the NRA. I didn't think shortening this to "hostile" was misleading.

When somebody is giving you good advice--which you are able to recognize as good advice--you don't need to ask if they're the sort of person you can trust. That only comes into play when you're uncertain.

Remember: We're all just disembodied voices on the internet. I don't know whether any of you are actually NRA members, whatever you say. I have no reason to assume you have a genuine interest in supporting gun rights or the NRA. Perhaps some of you are anti-gun spies. But it doesn't matter. All I can do is listen to what you say, and check if it seems sensible in light of my knowledge and experience. And this is all I need to do, since it doesn't matter if one's promoting bad ideas because he's a spy or just a fool.

Beware of reasons to avoid thinking.
It's a deficiency of the internet that some folks use the close ended "parting pithy comment" - such as telling someone who disagrees with them they're not thinking.

I'll disagree and still hold that you're thinking. Mistaken, but thinking. Do you suppose someone who disagrees with you isn't thinking? I'll decide what is or is not good advice. But you suggest that if I reject your's it must be because I don't recognize at as such. That seems a tad self-serving and condescending.

So far as not knowing who one may be or their motivations, true. A balance to that is one need not believe the assertions of another. What you suggest for others may be true of yourself or the OP. Anti-gun folks whose goal is to stir the pot. Difficult to know on the internet, being unable to eyeball one another. But it tends to show itself over time.

BTW, my NRA Life Member # is 069105XXX. No need for the last three digits, I'd imagine other Life Members will recognize the sequence.

Last edited by dfletcher; 04-21-2019 at 1:25 PM..
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  #58  
Old 04-21-2019, 1:47 PM
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No need to get upset, partner. I'm not peddling anything, so watch your mouth.

You can support whoever you want, but I encourage you to not merely dismiss the very disturbing information in that article, just because it was put forth by people you consider to be leftists. That's exactly what leftists do. I think you're actually a FUD, by the way you attack others and encourage willful ignorance. Don't be a FUD.

The rest of your tirade doesn't really make much sense. Have a nice Easter.
Does the source matter? People and organizations have an agenda and do what they can to advance their position. Shouldn't that be a part of evaluating information?

It's interesting that after a few days of posting there's been only one or two comments on the financial info, pretty shallow ones at that - including my own. But the article is only one aspect of the discussion. How it was titled and presented is another. As true and incontestable. And the author hasn't been so kind as to comment on the financials which, one would think, might cast light on whether his position is true.

Do we really suppose an article from the New Yorker and associated with a group whose website makes clear they are anti-gun carries value? I was being a bit smart *ssed when I mentioned the Klan, but it's an apt comparison. Would anyone listen to that group on civil rights and not consider the source? Would anyone suggest their critique of NAACP or ACLU is worthwhile?

Maybe Occum's Razor applies here?
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  #59  
Old 04-21-2019, 2:07 PM
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Oh no, more FUD! Anyone who is not interested in the long-term health of the NRA is an enemy of the Second Amendment. Sad to find this FUD on calguns.
long term health of the NRA is a separate issue and your advocating people stop donating surely will not help with that.

But thanks for admitting you are an enemy of the 2A
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  #60  
Old 04-21-2019, 2:33 PM
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Too bad it's the internet. These conversations would be much more fun on a bar stool -
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  #61  
Old 04-21-2019, 3:02 PM
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long term health of the NRA is a separate issue and your advocating people stop donating surely will not help with that.

But thanks for admitting you are an enemy of the 2A
I never advocated withholding donations from the NRA. I said that I myself would be donating only to the ILA.

Triggered much? It seems you came in with both guns blazing, but did not bother to read my comments. It's clear you also did not bother reading the actual article that is being discussed in this thread. Ah well, it's the inter-webs and any whiner can say what they want.

As I said, I'm a long-term member of the NRA and CRPA. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and post some actual facts that refute the financial information in the article. Until you do that, you're just running your mouth.

Good day.
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  #62  
Old 04-21-2019, 7:38 PM
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Do you suppose someone who disagrees with you isn't thinking?
Sometimes, but I don't think you aren't. My parting comment meant exactly what it said, not how you've read it. "I don't have to consider your criticism because you won't join the NRA" is a reason to avoid thinking. That is, thinking about the criticism, and whether or not it contains ideas that would help you achieve your goals.

Also, I said to beware of them, not to never adopt them, but that's separate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
But you suggest that if I reject your's it must be because I don't recognize at as [good advice]. That seems a tad self-serving and condescending.
What I meant was that you should reject my advice because you think it's bad advice, not because I'm not an NRA member (or won't say whether I am). Maybe it is bad advice. Many of my ideas are bad or wrong. That's one reason I discuss them.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:12 PM
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This again.

It's a hit piece written by Jeff Knox a well known anti-NRA advocate and the son of Neal Knox who made a failed attempt to take over the NRA.

The opinion piece is based entirely on a 'report' in the New Yorker, a well known anti-2A, anti-NRA publication.

The New Yorker article is based entirely on the 'facts' posted in an article on the website 'thetrace', one of Michael Bloomberg's pet anti-2a projects.

Ask yourself a question, if there was validity to this, and I'm not saying there aren't problems like with any organization, but if there was real solid evidence of a problem of this scale would you see it plastered all over CNN and MSNBC?

Do a quick Google search for 'cnn nra' and 'msnbc nra' and see if you find it. Remembering that Google itself is solidly anti-2A and would likely present a verified story like this in the top three results.
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  #64  
Old 04-22-2019, 7:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
I never advocated withholding donations from the NRA. I said that I myself would be donating only to the ILA.

Triggered much? It seems you came in with both guns blazing, but did not bother to read my comments. It's clear you also did not bother reading the actual article that is being discussed in this thread. Ah well, it's the inter-webs and any whiner can say what they want.

As I said, I'm a long-term member of the NRA and CRPA. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and post some actual facts that refute the financial information in the article. Until you do that, you're just running your mouth.

Good day.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I looked through the financials that was posted in the link. I see nothing in that report that supports the contentions in that article. If you do, go ahead and post them.
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  #65  
Old 04-23-2019, 7:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Suresh*t View Post
Oh no, more FUD! Anyone who is not interested in the long-term health of the NRA is an enemy of the Second Amendment. Sad to find this FUD on calguns.

Fud my arse! Read the bio.........I put both my money and job status in jeopardy when I did an NRA endorsement that appeared nationally.........quite an honor I thought when as a small town CLEO i was attacked by name in the NY times editorial page.

FUD: Only from the perspective that DO own sporting guns.......still have my old M/2 carbine but sold off the 16 and MP40 when the market got too good to ignore.

Screw you and your labelesque fantasy!
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Old 04-23-2019, 8:24 AM
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The NRA spends about 3% of its total donations on actually fighting gun laws. THREE PERCENT. that is a ****ing joke.

Yes they have done some good, they have also done A LOT of bad. They do in fact compromise.

I have been an NRA member since I was 18. 2 years ago I stopped renewing.

My money now goes to the GOA until Wayne & Chris, along with the other cronies are GONE.
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Old 04-23-2019, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by foreppin916 View Post
The NRA spends about 3% of its total donations on actually fighting gun laws. THREE PERCENT. that is a ****ing joke.

Yes they have done some good, they have also done A LOT of bad. They do in fact compromise.

I have been an NRA member since I was 18. 2 years ago I stopped renewing.

My money now goes to the GOA until Wayne & Chris, along with the other cronies are GONE.
Define "actually fighting gun laws".

What exactly are you talking about:
  • Lobbying Efforts ?
  • Legal Challenges ?
  • Media to Refute Gun Control Propaganda (like NRATV efforts)
  • Political Action Committee (PACs) ?
Without an all out effort from the NRA, Hillary could have triumphed
over Trump, and SCOTUS would now have 3 Anti-2A Ginsburg types
sitting on SCOTUS, swinging control to the Anti-Gun Zealots, which
would be a Disaster for the 2nd Amendment at this point in time.

So lets see how the Opposition analyzed Trumps Victory:

Wayne LaPierre's biggest win:
The National Rifle Association was pushing
Trumpism long before Donald Trump
Salon. 12/5/2016
https://www.salon.com/2016/12/05/way...-donald-trump/
BEGIN QUOTE:
"So the NRA went all in for Trump and spent millions on ads bashing
Hillary Clinton in places like Columbus, Ohio; Greensboro, North Carolina;
and Scranton, Pennsylvania. (I wrote for Salon about the NRA's first ad
this past summer.) According to the Center for Public Integrity, nearly 1
out of 20 TV ads in Pennsylvania was paid for by the NRA, and the group
ran nearly 15,000 spots in the crucial swing states that Trump
narrowly won, deciding the election."

END QUOTE. (Emphasis mine.)



The NRA Placed Big Bets on the 2016 Election,
and Won Almost All of Them

Open Secrets Center for Responsive Politics. November 9, 2016
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...t-all-of-them/




BEGIN QUOTE:
"The 2016 election results represent a continuation of the NRA’s impressive
success rate when making substantial investments in closely-contested
races
. Over the three prior election cycles, the group disbursed $1 million
dollars or more toward 14 congressional races and achieved its desired
outcome 11 times. To help Republicans win back the Senate in 2014, it
spent $20.6 million dollars on five key races in the upper chamber, and
in each of them, its preferred candidate won.


This election cycle, the NRA spent more than $52 million—a number that
will rise as final campaign finance figures are tallied — to carry on its effort
to increase Republican control of government, a mission that has ramped
up since the Citizen’s United decision in 2010, when the Supreme Court
removed caps on independent expenditures. The sum is by far the greatest
in the organization’s history, smashing its previous record, of $31.7
million, set in 2014."

END QUOTE.


The NRA successfully analyzed the 2016 Election, and helped Trump
Win in Key Swing States. Its not the amount of money spent, its
HOW you apply it, and the NRA successfully concentrated its clout
in those key states. Plus, the NRA is successful at getting out the
vote, and informing Gun Owners & NRA Members WHO to vote for:


The True Source of the N.R.A.’s Clout:
Mobilization, Not Donations

New York Times. 2/24/2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/u...l-florida.html
BEGIN QUOTE:
In Florida and other states across the country, as well as on Capitol Hill,
the N.R.A. derives its political influence instead from a muscular
electioneering machine, fueled by tens of millions of dollars’ worth of
campaign ads and voter-guide mailings, that scrutinizes candidates for
their views on guns and propels members to the polls.

“It’s really not the contributions,” said Cleta Mitchell, a former N.R.A.
board member. “It’s the ability of the N.R.A. to tell its members:
Here’s who’s good on the Second Amendment.”


"Far more than any check the N.R.A. could write, it is this mobilization
operation that has made the organization such a challenging adversary
for Democrats and gun control advocates
."

END QUOTE.




Even with all the alleged Cronyism, the NRA pulled this off, basically
saving the 2A from being Nullified out of Existence by the Democrats.

For That Alone, the NRA should be respected and supported.

The Rebalancing of the Lower Courts with Pro Constitution Judges
is an added bonus, especially in the hostile 9th Circus, where Trump
is rapidly adding Judges to counter the Anti-2A Liberal Majority.

The NRA is not perfect, no human organization is. Can it be improved ?

Sure. But you have to be a member and push for the changes you
would like to see implemented. Most of the assorted whining about
the NRA is borderline ridiculous, or simply incorrect, or no longer
relevant to todays situation.

I like GOA, but they simply do not have the Political Clout of the
NRA, so for now, I will continue to support and Donate to NRA-ILA
and CRPA, which is still a more effective way to fight back against
the Anti-2A Democrat Horde.


Noble
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:16 AM
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No posts to this thread since 5PM on 4-23.

It's Noon on Sunday the 28th now with lots of news coming out of the NRA convention of war between Wayne and Ollie North. Col. North has now announced his resignation. Claims and accusations about the financial health and future of the NRA and about the soundness of the NRA's officers in charge are flying fast and fiercely.

I'm very interested to hear what previous posters and others are thinking since the latest news out of the NRA Convention.

I feel lost in trying to figure out what's happening today and am looking for enlightened opinions based on facts and not on old grudges or prejudices. Perhaps there are others in my situation.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:44 AM
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Looks like I posted before looking for other threads in the National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Forum. There are others.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1528514

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1529018

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1529169
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Old 04-28-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaLiberal View Post
No posts to this thread since 5PM on 4-23.

It's Noon on Sunday the 28th now with lots of news coming out of the NRA convention of war between Wayne and Ollie North. Col. North has now announced his resignation. Claims and accusations about the financial health and future of the NRA and about the soundness of the NRA's officers in charge are flying fast and fiercely.

I'm very interested to hear what previous posters and others are thinking since the latest news out of the NRA Convention.

I feel lost in trying to figure out what's happening today and am looking for enlightened opinions based on facts and not on old grudges or prejudices. Perhaps there are others in my situation.
Cliff Notes version:

NY (D) Gov. Cuomo starts illegal scheme to Bankrupt NRA
Since NRA is based in NY, a plan to attack their non-profit status starts
NY elects Anti-NRA AG, she vows to go after NRA a “terrorist organization.”

NRA gets ready for the attack, but Vendor Ackerman won't cooperate.
NRA sues Ackerman to account for the missing financial info.

Ackerman Employs North, paying him millions during his NRA Presidency
Ackerman sends North to threaten Wayne to resign, he refuses.
Anti-NRA NY AG Letitia James launches investigation into NRA

Apparently the plan was to remove Wayne, put in North, cancel Lawsuit.

This would preserve the Status Quo, North protecting his income,
Ackerman protecting theirs (40 million last year)

At least, that is my summation after reading numerous articles,
so take it with the proverbial Grain of Salt.

Plan apparently backfired, North, whose term ends Monday, is gone.

And now we wait for the outcome of the Directors meeting on
Monday, 4/29/2019



Noble
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Old 04-28-2019, 1:15 PM
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Claims and accusations about the financial health and future of the NRA and about the soundness of the NRA's officers in charge are flying fast and fiercely.

I'm very interested to hear what previous posters and others are thinking since the latest news out of the NRA Convention.
I've been through some political party infighting before (at the county and state level). It's necessary, inevitable, unavoidable, and ongoing. It's built into human nature (or actually, into animal behavior--it's jostling for position within the hierarchy).

My advice is to set one's north star on the overarching goal: protecting and expanding gun rights. Then, it doesn't matter if the NRA lives, dies, or is mired in endless internal conflict. We can act on our own as individuals, join other pro-gun groups that have it more together than the NRA at the time, or participate in the internal NRA conflict--it doesn't matter as long as we keep measuring by the yardstick of, "is this the best way to allocate my resources to advance gun rights the way I see fit?" (Obviously you will be allocating other resources to just living your life; I'm only talking about the resources you could spare for the gun rights cause.)

Other people can try to tell you that their ideas on how to advance gun rights are better than yours--you can only choose for yourself. To those thinking that they have to force their methods on others, keep in mind that most Muslims are killed by other Muslims; the Shia vs. Sunni sectarian war rages on. We're all going to be better off if we can tolerate that some people will donate to the GOA and some will donate to the NRA, and some will donate to both, and some will donate to neither. Everybody fights in their own way.

As for the NRA, I don't have high hopes for it.

“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”

― Eric Hoffer, The Temper of Our Time

Causes go through phases, organizations go through phases. It's a life-death cycle. We just gotta stay true to the overarching goal. If the NRA manages to pull through, great. If not, there will be some other organization to take its place.

Last edited by dchang0; 04-28-2019 at 1:23 PM..
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Old 04-28-2019, 8:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchang0 View Post
....

“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”

― Eric Hoffer, The Temper of Our Time

Causes go through phases, organizations go through phases. It's a life-death cycle. We just gotta stay true to the overarching goal. If the NRA manages to pull through, great. If not, there will be some other organization to take its place.
Excellent quote!
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Old 04-28-2019, 8:49 PM
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Karl Erickson of Tactical Response is at the NRA convention and put out a video yesterday about all this (11 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMvv0CFlmr4
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Old 04-28-2019, 9:31 PM
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Karl Erickson of Tactical Response is at the NRA convention and put out a video yesterday about all this (11 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMvv0CFlmr4
Interview with NRA director Allen West. Spoke in generalities for the
most part, acknowledged they had to fix the problems on Monday, not
just put a bandage on them.

He suggested the NRA should drop New York and incorporate into a
Pro 2A state, he suggested his state of Georgia. Not a bad idea, seeing
how NY AG is going after their tax exempt status, calling the
NRA a “ terrorist organization “


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Old 04-29-2019, 9:56 AM
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Interview with NRA director Allen West. Spoke in generalities for the
most part, acknowledged they had to fix the problems on Monday, not
just put a bandage on them.

He suggested the NRA should drop New York and incorporate into a
Pro 2A state, he suggested his state of Georgia. Not a bad idea, seeing
how NY AG is going after their tax exempt status, calling the
NRA a “ terrorist organization “


Noble


See the Open Letter From Former NRA Employee. As a poster at ar15.com put it, NRA Executives and Board worked hard to earn this investigation.
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:05 AM
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Honestly, ALL the orgs like the NRA have some high degree of flimflam and corruption. It's the nature of orgs that are all about fundraising and image and don't produce an actual product. I expect the NRA to be run not as tightly as a private for-profit corporation. Furthermore I expect the NRA director to pull a high salary, because that's what's needed for people to take him seriously.

I'm happy that all this is coming out because it's healthy for organizations to clean house occasionally, to throw out the dead weight and the rats, to reform.

None of these revelations weaken my support for the NRA. All of this is necessary and makes the organization stronger.
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Old 04-29-2019, 2:27 PM
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See the Open Letter From Former NRA Employee. As a poster at ar15.com put it, NRA Executives and Board worked hard to earn this investigation.


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Old 04-29-2019, 2:59 PM
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Here is yet another Open Letter From A Former NRA Employee


April 29, 2019

An open letter to the NRA MEMBERSHIP and their elected SERVANTS, the NRA Board of Directors.

I hope these words don't fall on deaf ears, as I am just another Bojo on the bus, a small fish in a big and curently fetid pond: a mere NRA Member. I have, however, an insight on the current situation at the NRA that has developed from both my time as a PROUD NRA staff member, shunned heretic after my departure, and current disgusted yet DEVOTED Member.

I was blessed to have served as the Training Department's Senior Training Program Coordinator, a position that I was incredibly humbled to be created to bring me on board. I served as part of a Team that was passionate, relentless, vigilant, and tireless in our continuing improvement and protection of the training programs, which are the HEART of the NRA's mission statement. We had a Director who had our backs, a Manager who bled the NRA, and a Team that wasn't afraid even supported in telling the Emperor when he was naked. I was naive at the time about Ackerman-McQueen. I heard "Ack-Mac" mentioned occasionally with a shrug, but that was it.

What I did notice and was uncomfortable with was the cult of personality that some of the Executive Staff had. The Director of General Operations, a stuffed shirt, self-interested bully in my eyes (whose, I must admit, basically being told to shut up and sit down at the 2019 Meeting of Members seemed like karma at its best), and the Executive Director both always seemed to be placed FAR above their roles and NOT at the helm of a not for profit Association. In fact, the ONLY member of the Executive Staff at the time, Secretary Major James Lamb, was the MOST deserving of admiration: he worked FOR the Association, not the Association working for him.

I began to sense something was rotten in Denmark shortly after I was tasked with creating the Instructor Sales Program, a program through which Trainers would have access to reduced pricing on items which they could use in their training courses: a "win-win-win" for students and trainers, manufacturers, and the Training Programs. The "win" for the programs was that all of the revenue generated to the NRA had to go into the Education and Training Endowment to help the Traing Programs be remain self-perpetuating.

My guidelines were pretty clear: quality products, ZERO exclusivity, and no "buy in" on the part of manufacturers. The "contracts" were basically handshake agreements, reviewed by General Counsel, which were welcomed by manufacturers as a pleasant change from the Office of Advancement's hard-sell licensing agreements, which I have NO doubt were blueprinted by Ack-Mac. The program was a moderate success.

However, shortly after, I approached a major optics manufacturer who was more than happy to become involved. Details were worked out, General Counsel approved of the details, but just before launching, I was pulled into the office of the GO Director and told to stand down temporarily because another optics manufacturer who had NOT responded to my offer to be included, "may not be comfortable with their competition being in the program". This was my first hint that "perks" to senior staff could be driving decisions, later substantiated when a senior staff member went on to a position for the protected manufacturer.

Closer to home for me was the idea of web based training. The Training Department staff had been tasked with vigilantly ensuring that NRA credentials were in no way associated with online training. This determination was made based on three of the keystones could not exist in a web-based course: TPI (Total Participant Involvement); evaluation of the Knowledge, Skills, and ATTITUDE of the student by the trainer; and most importantly- safety, as the students' safe gun handling could NOT be observed and unsafe acts not be identified, remediated, and corrected, or failing that course of action the student being identified as not passing because of Attitude.

Just prior to my leaving staff, there began to be inklings of the development of web-based NRA Basic Firearms Courses, specifically, the Basics of Pistol Marksmanship Course. My peers were adamantly against this, and we were amazed that it was even being considered.

After I left, the whole debacle of "blended learning" went ahead full steam, without the consideration of the input from trainers in the trenches being asked for input. This was, in NO doubt, a result of the ever growing Ackerman-McQueen power within the NRA.

We all know the farce that the launching of Blended Learning was, and the offshoot of this rape of the integrity of the Programs was the introduction of Carry Guard, an Ack-Mac-inspired program that, it must be noted, is the HEART of the New York lawsuit that the "Old Guard" on the Board who voiced the need for secrecy at the Meeting of Members referenced.

This blatant ramrodding of a non-NRA developed course also resulted in the appointment of a new Education and Training Director who was, unbelievably, a major player in the Carry Guard program and who, for all intents and purposes, was given the equivalent of a "no show union job" that organized crime would be proud of.

I have left many names out. A little research can fill in blanks.

Again, I am PROUD to be a MEMBER of the National Rifle Association of America. I am PROUD to have worked with Bill Poole, the late Charles Mitchell, Andy Lander, Mark Richardson, Sean Thornton, Samantha Olsen, and the many other, under-payed, overworked, and dedicated staff members in the trenches during my time there.

I am saddened and at times angered by the few who have apparently turned to "the dark side" and sold out in the name of job security or often worse, personal gain or power, after preaching "you gotta be here for the passion not the paycheck".

In closing, MY Association is at a crossroads. It has become the swamp that many have lashed out against in our federal government. The "not for profit" status of the Association, if kept to its charter, bylaws, and mission statement is NOT in jeopardy. The FOR PERSONAL PROFIT actions of the "Old Guard" Board Members, certain of the Executive Staff and Directors and Deputy Directors, and Ackerman-McQueen influence have not only endangered the not for profit status but the INTEGRITY of the Association.

In addition, the heedless, unbridled hero worship of many Members and their antipathy toward holding the Old Guard accountable has helped to create the monster that is destroying the Association from within. This PROUD member of the "unwashed masses" that the Old Guard looks down on and feels deserve secrecy from the inner workings has had enough and will no longer tolerate the foxes keeping watch over the hen house.

Respectfully,
Steve Hoback
NRA Life Member
NRA Training Counselor
Former NRA Training Department Staff Member
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Old 04-29-2019, 3:07 PM
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I've been through some political party infighting before (at the county and state level). It's necessary, inevitable, unavoidable, and ongoing. It's built into human nature (or actually, into animal behavior--it's jostling for position within the hierarchy).

My advice is to set one's north star on the overarching goal: protecting and expanding gun rights. Then, it doesn't matter if the NRA lives, dies, or is mired in endless internal conflict. We can act on our own as individuals, join other pro-gun groups that have it more together than the NRA at the time, or participate in the internal NRA conflict--it doesn't matter as long as we keep measuring by the yardstick of, "is this the best way to allocate my resources to advance gun rights the way I see fit?" (Obviously you will be allocating other resources to just living your life; I'm only talking about the resources you could spare for the gun rights cause.)...
This is, essentially, the same advice John Lott is suggesting...

John Lott Provides Perspective on the NRA's 'Turmoil'
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Old 04-29-2019, 3:17 PM
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NRA Board Member Richard Childress has resigned from the NRA Board.
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