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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #841  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
I see now (post #738) that the change in the local ordinance takes place on July 22nd.

The change in state law takes place sometime after the governor signs the bill into law. Per post above, he has 30 days after the bill passed the legislature. That occurred on (under "ACTIONS" https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/a7752)

Once it is signed, (from the bill https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/a7752)
And itís still rather restrictive.
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  #842  
Old 07-16-2019, 1:54 PM
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Just read the bill-- it is missing the 'shall not be infringed' part.. the dog must have eaten that page.
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  #843  
Old 07-16-2019, 5:34 PM
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The bill has been signed. It goes into effect immediately.
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  #844  
Old 07-16-2019, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kukuforguns View Post
The Court has published the schedule for oral arguments in November: https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_ar...vember2019.pdf

NYSRPA is not listed.
FWIW I am not surprised NYSRPA isn't listed for Nov.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is not listed for Dec.

If it is not listed for Jan, I will be slightly surprised.

If it is not listed for Feb, I will be surprised and start thinking they're going per curiam (ala Caetano) and giving the dissenters time to write their opinions on this important case.
JMO
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  #845  
Old 07-17-2019, 9:17 AM
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Speaking to the moodiness issue, even if this new state law goes into effect. The court should realize what a dangerous president this sets where a state could enact restrictive unconstitutional laws only to backpedal later on. No way this flies with them they should hear the case as it was originally filed.

The icing on the cake would be a ruling on appropriate scrutiny in constitutional cases going forward.

Iím hoping for an early Christmas gift!
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  #846  
Old 07-17-2019, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
FWIW I am not surprised NYSRPA isn't listed for Nov.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is not listed for Dec.

If it is not listed for Jan, I will be slightly surprised.

If it is not listed for Feb, I will be surprised and start thinking they're going per curiam (ala Caetano) and giving the dissenters time to write their opinions on this important case.
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What do you think the hold up is ?
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  #847  
Old 07-17-2019, 6:59 PM
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Politics
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  #848  
Old 07-18-2019, 6:16 AM
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Probably waiting for a 6th Justice to come on board, just in case Roberts does what Roberts does.
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  #849  
Old 07-18-2019, 8:42 PM
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What do you think the hold up is ?
Two thoughts: (1) remember that "Gay wedding cake" case this term? It was scheduled for discussion for months and months and then, finally, in mid June, they just GVR'ed it. (I posted the relevant timeline somewhere earlier in this forum, IIRC.) SCOTUS pushes off controversial cases until the end of their term. In a controversial move, RBG already identified another Gay case (employment?) and Guns as the big controversial cases for next term. Also, remember, just because a case is not "moving" on the docket does not mean that justices aren't working on it or aren't having their clerks work on it.

(2) They could be waiting for NYC's merits brief (due Aug 05) (and NYSRPA's optional Reply brief?), before deciding whether and when to schedule it for orals. (If not, they might moot the case or per curiam it w/o orals.)

Again, just EDC pepper spray, follow the 4-Stupids Rules and enjoy your summer while we all await the Long Conference at the end of Sept (Rogers, Pena and Gould are still await cert decisions).



ETA: If people want to do something while waiting...

if you live in/near Sonoma Co, get the word out (ranges, gun shops, IDPA/USPSA clubs, etc) the new sheriff is regularly issuing CCWs.

If you live in/near Yolo Co, show up to support CCWs when Lopez has public meetings, to encourage him to liberalize issuance. Also hit ranges, gun shops and IDPA/USPSA clubs to get their customers and members active.

If you live in/near CoCoCo, do the same (ranges, gun shops, IDPA/USPSA clubs, etc), sharing my CoCoCo CCW Advice thread (stickied at the top of the Counties CCW Info forum), so that more people apply and get issued. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1482924

If you live in LA Co and have solid GC (prior reported attacks or credible threats, are a target due to work related matters (valuables, drugs, dangerous items, etc)), spend the $10 and apply and have your GC evaluated to see if you can get a CCW and let us (or at least me via PM (kept in strict confidence)), know how it goes. The new sheriff has said he's issuing more CCWs than his predecessor.
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Last edited by Paladin; 07-27-2019 at 8:09 PM..
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  #850  
Old 07-18-2019, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
enjoy your summer while we all await the Long Conference at the end of Sept (Rogers, Pena and Gould are still await cert decisions).
Mulford was 52 summers ago............GCA-68 was 51 summers ago.

At 70, I'm damn tired of "waiting" for all these suits to offset the F'n avalanche of Unconstitutional laws we get more buried under every "summer". I'm quickly running out of "summers".................

In the once great state of Ca. that I grew up in.

At 13 I went to swap meets and garage sales and bought guns.

Could drive around with a loaded pistol on the seat of my 59 Impala.

Only waiting period, was waiting for ANY local hardware or Five n Dime store to ring up my gun or ammo purchase.

Now 50 some yrs later. I'm a F'n criminal if I walk from my front door to the car in the driveway without my shotgun being cased and out of sight.

Anybody remember the old cartoon of 2 buzzards in the dead snag tree? One looks at the other and says.

"Patience be Damned, I'm gonna Kill something".
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  #851  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Mulford was 52 summers ago............GCA-68 was 51 summers ago.

At 70, I'm damn tired of "waiting" for all these suits to offset the F'n avalanche of Unconstitutional laws we get more buried under every "summer". I'm quickly running out of "summers".................

In the once great state of Ca. that I grew up in.

At 13 I went to swap meets and garage sales and bought guns.

Could drive around with a loaded pistol on the seat of my 59 Impala.

Only waiting period, was waiting for ANY local hardware or Five n Dime store to ring up my gun or ammo purchase.

Now 50 some yrs later. I'm a F'n criminal if I walk from my front door to the car in the driveway without my shotgun being cased and out of sight.

Anybody remember the old cartoon of 2 buzzards in the dead snag tree? One looks at the other and says.

"Patience be Damned, I'm gonna Kill something".
While I can relate and sympathize, getting upset at things you can't do anything about just raises your blood pressure and ruins your sleep.

Best thing is for folks NOT to make the same mistake over and over again. We counted on Nordyke and were disappointed. We counted on Heller/McDonald and SCOTUS has, so far, allowed it's "law" to be restricted to it's holding by the Circuit Courts of Appeal. The only pleasant surprise we've gotten was Caetano and that was minor, but important (so far, has helped with, IIRC, tasers, stun guns and pepper or mace sprays).

Best not to wait on the Courts, but keep busy at the county level while waiting. In my previous post above, I gave suggestions for 4 different counties. I'm sure there's work to be done in other counties too. The more CCWs we get issued statewide, the safer our streets get and the more CCWs that will be issued (and the weaker the antis' arguments become).

We've come a long way over the past 10 years without a Carry Case win at SCOTUS. Now is not the time to sit on our hands while waiting for SCOTUS once again...


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Last edited by Paladin; 07-18-2019 at 11:24 PM..
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  #852  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:35 PM
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I'm in LA Cnty, and no matter what color Baggs puts on his map. LA will remain DARK MAROON IN REALITY. Until SCOTUS says otherwise.

Which is less likely all the time to happen before I run out of "summers".

And those maps don't come anywhere close to representing just how F,d the 2nd is in this state. Mag Bans, 3 levels of AW bans, ammo registration, fees, waiting periods, handgun roster, on, and on, and on.

Legislature makes the rules. They know full well they can pass multiple anti 2A laws in weeks. Prop-63 example, and it takes us tens of yrs to fight each one. While they continue the "Bill Mill" grinding away full tilt.

Last edited by pacrat; 07-18-2019 at 11:50 PM..
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  #853  
Old 07-19-2019, 2:05 AM
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Legislature makes the rules. They know full well they can pass multiple anti 2A laws in weeks. Prop-63 example, and it takes us tens of yrs to fight each one.
The optimist in me wants to believe SCOTUS has recognized this and will hand down a rule on scrutiny. Not doing so will require them to keep swatting down innumerable unconstitutional laws like flies... one by one. Time to put down the fly-swatter and bring out the flamethrower.
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  #854  
Old 07-19-2019, 3:26 AM
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Politics
I think this is an important issue in the timing of the case being heard. I may not be thinking exactly as you are, but I believe you identified the key.

I think Roberts in particular does not want to have this case become a bigger factor in the 2020 election than necessary. If the court is viewed as having timed the orals or the decision in a manner which would affect the election, it will be considered by many to be a political court which is trying to interfere where it should not.

And if the orals occur prior to the election in the next session you will have people arguing that the SCOTUS is trying to affect the election.

So I expect Roberts (maybe others as well) would argue for distancing this case from the election and I'd guess that January is the earliest they'd hear the case. Because I expect the language to be hard-fought-over I'm guessing it gets heard no later than March.

So I'm guessing/speculating that the case is heard in the January to March time frame.
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  #855  
Old 07-19-2019, 7:16 AM
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Default I am with you only a few years behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Mulford was 52 summers ago............GCA-68 was 51 summers ago.

At 70, I'm damn tired of "waiting" for all these suits to offset the F'n avalanche of Unconstitutional laws we get more buried under every "summer". I'm quickly running out of "summers".................

In the once great state of Ca. that I grew up in.

At 13 I went to swap meets and garage sales and bought guns.

Could drive around with a loaded pistol on the seat of my 59 Impala.

Only waiting period, was waiting for ANY local hardware or Five n Dime store to ring up my gun or ammo purchase.

Now 50 some yrs later. I'm a F'n criminal if I walk from my front door to the car in the driveway without my shotgun being cased and out of sight.

Anybody remember the old cartoon of 2 buzzards in the dead snag tree? One looks at the other and says.

"Patience be Damned, I'm gonna Kill something".
This !!!
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  #856  
Old 07-19-2019, 8:36 AM
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I think Roberts in particular does not want to have this case become a bigger factor in the 2020 election than necessary. If the court is viewed as having timed the orals or the decision in a manner which would affect the election, it will be considered by many to be a political court which is trying to interfere where it should not.

And if the orals occur prior to the election in the next session you will have people arguing that the SCOTUS is trying to affect the election.

So I expect Roberts (maybe others as well) would argue for distancing this case from the election and I'd guess that January is the earliest they'd hear the case. Because I expect the language to be hard-fought-over I'm guessing it gets heard no later than March.

So I'm guessing/speculating that the case is heard in the January to March time frame.
IMO, there's no way this case won't be an issue in the election. Regardless of when it is heard/orals, the decision is most likely to be issued in June -- right before the Democratic (July 13 to 16, 2020) and Repub (August 24 to 27, 2020) national conventions. That will bring the focus of the election on to federal courts, esp SCOTUS, Trump's judicial picks and the 2nd A/gun control. It will energize both the antis and our side. Last time, the MSM and Liberals didn't think he'd beat Hillary. This time the fight will be far nastier, far more expensive and far more important (more SCOTUS justices likely to retire, esp Liberal, than this presidential term).

JMO
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  #857  
Old 07-19-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
IMO, there's no way this case won't be an issue in the election. Regardless of when it is heard/orals, the decision is most likely to be issued in June -- right before the Democratic (July 13 to 16, 2020) and Repub (August 24 to 27, 2020) national conventions. That will bring the focus of the election on to federal courts, esp SCOTUS, Trump's judicial picks and the 2nd A/gun control. It will energize both the antis and our side. Last time, the MSM and Liberals didn't think he'd beat Hillary. This time the fight will be far nastier, far more expensive and far more important (more SCOTUS justices likely to retire, esp Liberal, than this presidential term).

JMO
No big argument with you there.

Do note that I wrote "bigger factor". Orals and/or a decision would inflate the issue.

But even that would not be the Roberts' direct reason to delay. He will want to keep the timing away from the election for the good of the court more than for the good of the country (it would not surprise me if he figures that whatever is good for the court IS good for the country).

If he schedules orals in February or March it will mean that the SCOTUS will not be quite as much of an issue in the election. I'm pretty sure Roberts will believe this is a good thing.
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  #858  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:21 AM
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The date of orals will not be the issue. Instead, the issue will be the timing of the issuance of its decision. As you are probably aware, the Court issues all of its decisions at the end of a term, which is June. Further, I surmise that there is no set period of time that the Court must issue its decision (as is the case with the Circuit courts)after oral arguments, and the decision cold be held for another year after orals, i.e., until after the next election. that would not surprise me at all if it is a real block buster that fully recognizes the right as just as important as all the others.
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  #859  
Old 07-19-2019, 3:29 PM
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Even if it goes our way and all the wide ranging pro 2A speculations bantered here come to pass.

WILL IT MAKE ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN CRAPOFORNIA?

For all the hoopla with Heller 11 yrs ago. And McDonald 9 yrs ago.

Neither made one damn bit of difference, here behind enemy lines in Crapofornia. The Chit Flood of anti 2A legislation out of the Excremento Bill Mill continues to flow unchecked like a broken sewer line.

Considering this vid was made AFTER both Heller-McDonald.

https://youtu.be/rG5xWcV412E
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  #860  
Old 07-19-2019, 4:44 PM
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It doesn't help when the idiots that live here vote to punish themselves. I could make a list but why plss myself off.
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  #861  
Old 07-19-2019, 6:37 PM
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Even if it goes our way and all the wide ranging pro 2A speculations bantered here come to pass.

WILL IT MAKE ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN CRAPOFORNIA?

For all the hoopla with Heller 11 yrs ago. And McDonald 9 yrs ago.

Neither made one damn bit of difference, here behind enemy lines in Crapofornia. The Chit Flood of anti 2A legislation out of the Excremento Bill Mill continues to flow unchecked like a broken sewer line.

Considering this vid was made AFTER both Heller-McDonald.

https://youtu.be/rG5xWcV412E
You have to put it in context.

In the past it would have made little difference. We had an overwhelming preponderance of fascist District and Circuit judges who would approve pretty much any idiotic unconstitutional thing the Sacramento fascists could dream up.

Trump has changed things quite significantly (might argue for using the word dramatically but I'd not go quite that far).

We are getting an influx of judges who will actually try to follow the Constitution. I don't think they can be called "conservative" because they will still rule against us if they think that is what the Constitution and relevant precedent demand.

If we get a really good and explicit ruling out of SCOTUS regarding this NYSRPA case things will be much, much different and Sacramento will likely start to worry about the effect of what they do.

The scenario I envision goes something like this:
  1. Sacramento passes insanely unconstitutional measure.
  2. NPR/CRPA files for Preliminary Injunction. We'll increasingly see judge-shopping for this.
  3. There is a decent chance that the District court actually issues the PI in favor of liberty.
  4. Sacramento appeals to the 9th.
  5. 9th Circuit will be much more balanced and might actually rule in favor of liberty. The case likely stops there because going to SCOTUS might be worse for the fascists. If liberty loses at the Circuit level we can request en banc and might win that way - or appeal to SCOTUS where a win is possible.

Winning at the District level means that the law doesn't go into force.

Losing at the District level would not be good, but there is a decent chance of a win at the Circuit level which is then precedential at the District level and could be kicking the stuffing out of bad law in places like Hawaii, Washington, etc.

If we lose at the Circuit level we have the opportunity for a win at SCOTUS and in a closely divided 9th Circuit you might find some respect for precedent.


Give Trump a second term along with a Republican Senate and therefore more appointments and Sacramento could literally fear passing legislation to stomp on our right to self-defense.

We keep invoking Heller and McDonald as if they are strong decisions for the right to self-defense. I think that is mostly wrong.

I think that especially in the context of what followed we should view them as rather weak in some regards. Pretty much all they did was to incorporate the 2nd Amendment against the states and against DC. Then they left it up to the states and the lower courts to figure out what that meant.

Well, the fascists stole the march on that one. They did a good job of selecting judges and circuits to set up a sort of two-step shuffle to pretty much ignore the guts of the freedom and established it as accepted judicial practice.

Since we didn't have a SCOTUS with the make-up to actually correct the states and lower courts in this regard SCOTUS allowed the violation of rights to continue and one could argue that by refusing cert to many cases the SCOTUS endorsed the accepted judicial practice of destroying our rights.


I still think Trump is a narcissistic jerk but we need to understand that he is doing more to secure liberty than has anyone in literally decades. If we get a second term and a few more Trump appointments to SCOTUS and a bunch of District and Circuit appointments - we will be far better off.

Right now we are under the situation where our right to self-defense is acknowledged but limited to pretty much whatever level the states want. This will likely be changing in the next few years.
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  #862  
Old 07-19-2019, 8:29 PM
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Right now we are under the situation where our right to self-defense is acknowledged but limited to pretty much whatever level the states want. This will likely be changing in the next few years.
You have to put it in "context" indeed. My question has nothing lacking in context. I've been hearing the "be patient, things are changing for over 50 yrs". Problem being now, as then.

Here in Crapofornia. And all other ANTI 2a blue states. It historically changes for the worse.

SO HOW WILL A FAVORABLE RULING in NY ACTUALLY HELP US?

This NY case has been slogging through courts for 6 yrs.. How many Anti 2A laws have been passed nationwide in the interim?

Quote:
If we get a really good and explicit ruling out of SCOTUS regarding this NYSRPA case things will be much, much different and Sacramento will likely start to worry about the effect of what they do.
Out of your entire wall of text, only the above quoted single sentence even mentions NYSRPA. You started it with "IF", which makes everything following purely speculative. And ended it with a historically dis-proven pipe dream.

Reggie Sawyer Jones's vid I linked, is representative of how every "D" legislator in SacOcrapmento sees the Constitution. Listen to Newscum speak, listen to our illustrious AG speak. Hell listen to anyone associated with the Dems speak. They could care less about the Constitution or SCOTUS. They own this state. And are untouchable for their malfeasances due to legislative immunity.

So they are free to piss on the constitution as much as they want. Their Immunity driven Hubris is limitless. They get paid with our money to F us. And after decades of practice. They are damn good at it.

As much as I'd like to be proven wrong. Due to the extremely narrow focus of the NY suit complaint in regard to a city ordinance. I don't see "NYSRPA v NY" actually doing one damn little thing to improve the 2A tyranny in Ca. Any more than Heller/McDonald did.

PS.....I agree with you on Trump's realignment of the courts. But that only helps us in Ca. If they are ruling favorably on Ca relevant cases. But that is a separate topic from my question.

Last edited by pacrat; 07-20-2019 at 3:12 AM..
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  #863  
Old 07-20-2019, 8:16 PM
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NYC's rule change has gone into effect.

https://rules.cityofnewyork.us/conte...ense-amendment
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  #864  
Old 07-21-2019, 10:31 AM
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NYC's rule change has gone into effect.

https://rules.cityofnewyork.us/conte...ense-amendment
Thanks.

Next key date is NYC's "brief on the merits" due on Aug 05 --
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  #865  
Old 07-21-2019, 11:49 AM
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Lol. Finally a literal "2 weeks"
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Old 07-21-2019, 6:28 PM
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Thanks.

Next key date is NYC's "brief on the merits" due on Aug 05 --
I though they weren't going to produce a "brief on the merits" since they believe the rule change has mooted the case and that is the end of it.
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CurlyDave View Post
I though they weren't going to produce a "brief on the merits" since they believe the rule change has mooted the case and that is the end of it.
I'm going off of what SCOTUS' docket for the case is telling them to do. ("The time to file respondents' brief on the merits is extended to and including August 5, 2019.") Whether they obey it or not (or whether SCOTUS changes it or not) is a different question.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
I'm going off of what SCOTUS' docket for the case is telling them to do. ("The time to file respondents' brief on the merits is extended to and including August 5, 2019.") Whether they obey it or not (or whether SCOTUS changes it or not) is a different question.
The brief will probably be a rehash of their earlier letters to the court.
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Old 07-22-2019, 9:12 AM
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Even if it goes our way and all the wide ranging pro 2A speculations bantered here come to pass.

WILL IT MAKE ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN CRAPOFORNIA?

For all the hoopla with Heller 11 yrs ago. And McDonald 9 yrs ago.

Neither made one damn bit of difference, here behind enemy lines in Crapofornia. The Chit Flood of anti 2A legislation out of the Excremento Bill Mill continues to flow unchecked like a broken sewer line.

Considering this vid was made AFTER both Heller-McDonald.

https://youtu.be/rG5xWcV412E
It all comes down to how the SCOTUS wants to write the decision. CA will look for loopholes and exploit them as far as they can. If its a positive ruling just be ready for pistolpolooza because we'll have a short window just like magapolooza in April. Get what you can before it goes away again.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:01 PM
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Per Wolf:

https://www.scribd.com/document/4194...QdpQ67HEDUa_6s
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:20 PM
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F.ckers want to dance around voluntary cessation by claiming it is the state law that prohibits their city statute now, not just them reverting this.

I wonder how far this will fly.
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Old 07-22-2019, 1:37 PM
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New York City filed two documents today:
1) Something entitled "Suggestion of Mootness"; and
2) A request for an extension to file its response until September 30, 2019
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  #873  
Old 07-22-2019, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kukuforguns View Post
New York City filed two documents today:
1) Something entitled "Suggestion of Mootness"; and
2) A request for an extension to file its response until September 30, 2019
"This case is moot. Please give us more time because it is moot."

NY is seriously being obtuse.
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Old 07-22-2019, 1:57 PM
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NY's "Suggestion of Mootness" TOTALLY fails to address the issue of interstate travel in the grant of Cert. Nor is it a "motion" as required under the rules.

The extension of time has a 50/50 chance. I'm hoping they get B-slapped because they deserve it.
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Old 07-22-2019, 1:58 PM
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I would be completely OK if this case is moot. "Fine, NY, we agree, this case is moot. Now we're going to grant cert to the NJ carry case, see what you think about that one."
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Old 07-22-2019, 2:22 PM
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I would be completely OK if this case is moot. "Fine, NY, we agree, this case is moot. Now we're going to grant cert to the NJ carry case, see what you think about that one."
Here's how New York will respond:
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Old 07-22-2019, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
"This case is moot. Please give us more time because it is moot."

NY is seriously being obtuse.
Looks to me like NY is seriously worried that their smug stance on going against the constitution may backfire, and generate national change that they will forever be given credit for. If I recall, Washington D.C. was in a similar boat, but had a chance to change course and not present it to SCOTUS?.....Thus saving face, but still having a lump in their pants.
NY certainly had not counted on the make-up of SCOTUS starting to lean to our favor, and are now in panic mode.
If the above is true, it really shows that elections matter.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:16 PM
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The last few sentences in their letter seem to say they want an extension so the court can think over how they want to proceed if at all. Isn't that thoughtful of them. Just a bunch of givers.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:56 PM
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I'm glad they're asked SCOTUS today to decide re. mootness ASAP vs. waiting until Aug 08 when their Response is due. Saves us 2 weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
I would be completely OK if this case is moot. "Fine, NY, we agree, this case is moot. Now we're going to grant cert to the NJ carry case, see what you think about that one."
Exactly. Let's get a true, clean Carry Case before SCOTUS ASAP! I don't care if we win SI CCW permits first or a right to LOC first -- I can start doing either tomorrow! (actually tonight... )
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  #880  
Old 07-22-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Looks to me like NY is seriously worried that their smug stance on going against the constitution may backfire, and generate national change that they will forever be given credit for. If I recall, Washington D.C. was in a similar boat, but had a chance to change course and not present it to SCOTUS?.....Thus saving face, but still having a lump in their pants.
NY certainly had not counted on the make-up of SCOTUS starting to lean to our favor, and are now in panic mode.
If the above is true, it really shows that elections matter.
I, whose opinion matters not in the big scheme, agree; NY's responses on this case reek of desperation. Both the city and their cohorts at the state level are back pedaling furiously now that they perceive the very real chance they could lose the gun control battle at SCOTUS. It was all great for them and regular citizen rights meant nothing as long as they (the city) could count on a win in the liberal slanted NY courts and at 2CA. Now they want out, badly.
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