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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 07-12-2019, 8:01 AM
Offwidth Offwidth is offline
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It does not matter if any issues are true or not. Any sufficiently large organization has them.

Issue is that Bloomberg and their ilk are drumming it up and weaponizing it before the election cycle using gullible useful idiots doing their bidding for them. Like some in this thread.

We need NRA during elections. Period. I do not give a flying fck if some people their did something they will regret after the elections.

Stop spreading this crap.
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  #82  
Old 07-12-2019, 9:41 AM
thmsmgnm thmsmgnm is offline
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NRA contracts have been questionable for over 20 years. Wayne Lapierre has responded to any attempt by BoD members or the membership to get transparency or reform with stonewall, open defiance, or to attack those pushing for reform. Now that the N.Y. AG is getting involved whining about Bloomturd isn't going to save the Association, if it can be saved at all.

The only option, which the majority of the NRA BoD is either too foolish or cowardly to undertake, is full scale reform. That means ridding the NRA of not only Wayne, his immediate staff, but the officers and probably the NRA BoD Executive & Finance committee members. Followed by an immediate review of the actions of those removed. I do not see this ever happening, so I expect the NRA to eventually lose their charter and face massive $$$$ fines.
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  #83  
Old 07-12-2019, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
It does not matter if any issues are true or not... I do not give a flying fck if some people their did something they will regret after the elections.

Stop spreading this crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thmsmgnm View Post
NRA contracts have been questionable for over 20 years... so I expect the NRA to eventually lose their charter and face massive $$$$ fines.
Again... This is NOT the thread for such arguments, misconceptions, and opinions.

You have umpteen other threads on the topic to engage in that kind of back and forth.

If you don't like the content on this thread, simply don't click on it. If you want to push an agenda, take it to another thread actively engaged in such.

This thread is for primary source documentation that people can reference to 'un-spin the spin' for themselves. There are people who appreciate what is being provided and it's similar (in some cases, exactly the same) as has been provided by Calguns itself. Let's not make people wade through "X" number of pages of the same shouting matches or head in the sand appeals or similar to find the links to the documents.

Thank you.
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  #84  
Old 07-12-2019, 10:06 AM
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This is the thread to debunk and explain all this nonsense that you are promoting.
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  #85  
Old 07-12-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
This is the thread to debunk and explain all this nonsense that you are promoting.
The only things I'm 'promoting' are...
  • The source material being referenced (then spun) in the media reports so that...
  • Calguns members can investigate for themselves what the source material actually says and the context for it
  • At which point Calguns members can make up their own, individual minds on whether there is even a problem or problems which need to be addressed

What I am advocating is that if you cannot abide such primary source material, be they court filings, IRS filings, etc., you are not helping and simply promoting your own agenda. (Remember, what very few links to articles which have been presented in this thread are strictly for reference to the documents being claimed as the source material.)

Loyalty is a good thing. Blind loyalty is an agenda. Demands that source documentation not be made available (including attempts to to 'bury' such objective information or derail threads providing it) and that people adhere strictly and vociferously to your point of view is... well... more than pushing an agenda and is blatantly disrespectful to other members.

Don't like the content? Don't want to see/read the materials? That's your choice. All you have to do is simply not click the thread.

Don't want others to see the source materials and what they actually say versus what the anti-gun media claims they say or demand that others simply 'shut up' and/or agree to see such as 'nonsense?'

It seems to me that is promoting something.

Want to debunk the media stories? Go to the source material being provided in this thread, see what it says or doesn't say, then go to a thread where those media stories are being discussed and 'unspin the spin' with the facts. There's nothing to 'debunk' here... Well...

At least that's how I'm trying to maintain the thread; but, your deliberate misrepresentation of the materials being made available is not helpful to that end.
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  #86  
Old 07-12-2019, 10:41 AM
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Since it's getting buried, again, here are the source documents presented thus far in this thread. Once again, time and space limitations preclude the full context for some of this in a single post.

Quote:
An accompanying report highlights what Everytown calls the “scandals and investigations rocking the NRA,” including a recent New Yorker exposé detailing how a small group of NRA executives, contractors and vendors “extracted hundreds of millions of dollars from the nonprofit’s budget.” Everytown, in turn, filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service challenging the NRA’s tax-exempt status...
Here is that Complaint/Letter, filed in April with the IRS.

The 990's can now be found on Calguns.

HERE IS LaPierre's LETTER

Rather than seeking personal opinions, why not look at the NRA bylaws? Here's the 2016 version.

NRA vs. Ackerman-McQueen and Mercury Group

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeAuMaN
This is the report (at least from August 2017) https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/...ugust-2017.pdf
Here's NRA President Cors' rationale as presented in 2017...

It has been shutdown subsequent to the original post; but... This was something that came up last year... Who watches the NRA’s TV channel?

Oliver North is out as NRA president, following a leadership dispute with longtime CEO Wayne LaPierre

Here is a video of North's letter as it is read to the meeting.

There's a lot of back and forth out there about "NRA Members" challenging the organization leadership. Here's a video by Rob Pincus, as to why...



Basically, the desire was for more transparency in terms of what is happening; i.e., that it's "okay" to have an open discussion about the problems, concerns, financial issues, etc.

As he cites in an associated piece posted on AmmoLand...

Quote:
Please SHARE this throughout the gun community and make sure that no one (including those with an agenda from outside our community) spins our actions to suit their narrative!
In that vein, what was the source for the media-wide reports that Chris Cox has been suspended from the NRA? It all seems to come back to The New York Times article, which is based on a court case filed by the NRA versus Oliver North and a quote they got from Chris Cox. Since The New York Times was immediately disparaged as anti-gun/Liberal and, thus, not a reliable source, here's the court filing...

NRA vs. North

Relevant quote...

Quote:
E. In April 2019, North Again Acts In Bad Faith, And Again Breaches His Fiduciary Duties—Again, To Deflect Scrutiny From His Seven-Figure Contract...

48. North and his co-conspirators orchestrated these threats through, among other things, a string of text messages that are filed herewith. The text messages were produced in the Virginia Litigation by Dan Boren, an NRA board member employed by one of Ackerman’s other major clients, the Chickasaw Nation. Boren relayed the contents of Ackerman’s threatened letter to North and helped to choreograph the ultimatum they presented to Mr. LaPierre. Moreover, in email correspondence transmitted over non-NRA servers, Boren admitted his knowledge that Ackerman may have been invoicing the NRA for full salaries of employees who were actually working on the Chickasaw Nation account. The same text messages and email messages demonstrate that another errant NRA fiduciary, Chris Cox [4] —once thought by some to be a likely successor for Mr. LaPierre—participated in the Ackerman/North/Boren conspiracy...
(italic/bold emphasis mine)

The [4] is a footnote which states: Identified in text messages as CC and Chris.

I guess this is the text message.

If you go to the New York Supreme Court website, you can find everything that has been submitted related to the case. You may have to enter characters to prove you're not a bot. Once you do, you will need to enter the index number - 653577/2019. Among those submissions are the original complaint and North's filings, which include...

Defendant's Answer and Counterclaims
18 April 2019 Letter from North to NRA's Frazer and Cotton
25 April 2019 Memo from North to NRA Executive Committee
12 June 2019 Letter from North's Counsel to NRA General Counsel
6 May 2019 North Indemnification Request to NRA
6 June 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification
1 July 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification

I can't, at the moment, find an official statement by either the NRA or NRA-ILA regarding Cox being suspended. As of 26 June, AmmoLand posted a piece declaring...

Quote:
...After the allegations came to light Cox stated to The New York Times...

“The allegations against me are offensive and patently false. For over 24 years I have been a loyal and effective leader in this organization,” Cox said. “My efforts have always been focused on serving the members of the National Rifle Association, and I will continue to focus all of my energy on carrying out our core mission of defending the Second Amendment.”

...Neither Cox nor the NRA has given statements on the resignation.
As regards NRA pension funds being 'frozen'... At the moment, what 'evidence' they claim to have doesn't appear to have been made public. Well, at least I haven't found the documents publicly posted, yet. The 'source' for this information seems to have been based on an NPR piece back in May and is based on an anonymous leak, claiming to have access to document(s), and interpretations of that/those document(s) which don't appear to have been published.

As Leaks Show Lavish NRA Spending, Former Staff Detail Poor Conditions At Nonprofit

Quote:
Documents raise questions about NRA pension plan

Even as the organization pays its top executives high wages, the future prospects for those NRA employees who qualify for a pension are worsening.

NPR obtained a copy of 2019 National Rifle Association pension documents from a source with direct access to them. Brian Mittendorf, who chairs the Department of Accounting at Ohio State University, helped NPR review these documents.

They show that the NRA's pension obligations were approximately $134 million at the beginning of this year, but they had only set aside $93 million to meet those obligations.

They also show that the NRA's pension situation has become more troubling in the past few years. There are 786 people in the NRA's pension plan, of which 223 are currently employed by the organization.

Buried at the bottom of one page of the pension report, in a bullet point, the NRA said it had implemented a freeze to their pension plan in 2018. This means that even current employees who are in the plan can no longer accrue new benefits despite continuing to work for the organization.

"In effect, it is the most an organization can do to cut pension benefits without completely terminating its plan," Mittendorf said.

The freeze in benefits for employees who participate in the pension plan is in contrast to a one-time $3,767,345 supplemental retirement payment LaPierre received in 2015, according to the NRA's public disclosures.

"It's indicative that the organization has not set aside sufficient funds to cover its rank-and-file employees' retirements," Mittendorf said. "That means that the organization's financial trouble puts these rank-and-file employees' future at risk. Something would need to change at the organization to cover them. ... The people at the top are going to be financially secure. It's the rank-and-file employees that are at risk."
A report done by Mittendorf of Ohio State in December 2018 appears to be what is being referenced and it is based on an NRA Audit for 2017 which you can set against the 2018 report in the The Washington Post piece linked to by thmsmgnm above (in the other thread). It does provide information on several things, including "Retirement Plans" on page 21 of 26 (pages 19 - 22 of the actual report).

There is also THIS PAGE with downloadable "leaked documents;" including Andy Lander's letter. There is also an "Image" document (2 pages) containing an NRA Funding Notice for 2018 NRA Retirement Plan.

Then there's also the NRA's Form 5500 for 2016 related to their 401(k).

I'm not as certain about this one as it's not a copy of the document, but here's a site which has, apparently, transcribed the same information, from the same form for their 2017 filing. They give the plan a 79 out of 100 rating. (Be forwarned... It appears the site only allows you to access it so many times without providing an e-mail address.)
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  #87  
Old 07-12-2019, 11:15 AM
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This is NOT a single subject thread, it is open to discussion like any other thread on the forum and people WILL have different views and want to express them.

That said keep response to the topic not the person per the rules.
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  #88  
Old 07-12-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This is NOT a single subject thread, it is open to discussion like any other thread on the forum and people WILL have different views and want to express them.

That said keep response to the topic not the person per the rules.
Thread Title Is:

"The Source For The Heated Exchanges Regarding the NRA"

The title in and of itself denotes a single subject. So does the grammar...

TrappedInCalifornia is doing a pretty decent job of sticking to that, and providing the sources - some original, some secondary, and some that can put in that category known as "innuendo".

Yet, in the same post quoted above, you address the ad-hom problem that has occurred - yet by declaring the thread to NOT be single subject allowing for different views is odd because by doing that, you have to allow one to express the view that a poster providing a link to an original source is a "Bloomberg agent".

Which of course is personal, or an ad-hom.

I think it is been pretty well established that there are enough "legit" sources to make the case that the NRA does have some leadership problems.

Why not just lock the thread without further circular comment Kestryll and walk away?

=8-|
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  #89  
Old 07-12-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
It does not matter if any issues are true or not. Any sufficiently large organization has them.

Issue is that Bloomberg and their ilk are drumming it up and weaponizing it before the election cycle using gullible useful idiots doing their bidding for them. Like some in this thread.

We need NRA during elections. Period. I do not give a flying fck if some people their did something they will regret after the elections.

Stop spreading this crap.
Very well said.
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  #90  
Old 07-12-2019, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Thread Title Is:

"The Source For The Heated Exchanges Regarding the NRA"

The title in and of itself denotes a single subject. So does the grammar...

TrappedInCalifornia is doing a pretty decent job of sticking to that, and providing the sources - some original, some secondary, and some that can put in that category known as "innuendo".

Yet, in the same post quoted above, you address the ad-hom problem that has occurred - yet by declaring the thread to NOT be single subject allowing for different views is odd because by doing that, you have to allow one to express the view that a poster providing a link to an original source is a "Bloomberg agent".

Which of course is personal, or an ad-hom.

I think it is been pretty well established that there are enough "legit" sources to make the case that the NRA does have some leadership problems.

Why not just lock the thread without further circular comment Kestryll and walk away?

=8-|
Like all threads this one is open to discussion whether you agree with or disagree with the OP.

As for topic branches, they happen in every thread. As long as they are within the purview of the initial topic they are not derailments.

You can deal with that reality or you can move on to another thread, doesn't change anything.
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  #91  
Old 07-12-2019, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Like all threads this one is open to discussion whether you agree with or disagree with the OP.

As for topic branches, they happen in every thread. As long as they are within the purview of the initial topic they are not derailments.

You can deal with that reality or you can move on to another thread, doesn't change anything.
Your site, your... 'rules.' All I'm going to say at this point is that the 'open discussion' you appear to be 'encouraging' on this thread is a distraction to the information being provided - the SAME, EXACT information, in some cases, you made 'live' AFTER it was provided in this thread (though you appear to have been working on it prior to that); LOCKING that section to preclude any... 'discussion.' I realize it is something that you appear to be either unaware of, in one instance, directing people to a Rolling Stone article rather than the 3 or 4 threads on this site, which at that time, linked directly to the same source materials. But, no one can be expected to keep track of 'everything' going on.

The point is, however, there is nothing to 'agree with or disagree with' regarding what I have presented and what I have tried to keep this thread focused on; unless, of course, you have an agenda and deem such data/facts to be antithetical to that agenda. I've remained, so much as I can, overtly neutral regarding my position on this NRA dust-up, saying only, at one point, on a different thread, that...

Quote:
I definitely fall into two groups...
  • Those who look at or present the 'evidence' and want to know more (specifically) before making a decision.
  • Those who want to see the NRA get past this, whatever it takes, and get back to work protecting the 2nd Amendment.

(snip)*****(snip)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Python6357
With the 2A being under constant attack from politicians, the division within our community is a clear and present problem that needs to be worked out somehow. Unfortunately, people are very passionate on both sides, and I don't see this getting better.
That's the crux of it. I'd even bet that was the methodology behind Bloomberg's ad campaign - 'attack' in such a way as to 'tickle' pre-existing concerns some members have and cause one to 'react,' not so much based on actual, hard evidence, but on an emotional level? Remember, such pre-existing concerns are no secret and are quite commonly aired in public; whether in articles, interviews, or internet forums.
That was tying it back to the OP of this thread where I clearly state...

Quote:
As Kestryll observed, Bloomberg appears to be in the middle of this.
As you declared on the locked, "Guns & Money" section...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll
This is still a work in progress but as it is 70% complete and in light of the current claims about the NRA I felt taking it live is necessary.

As stated this forum is about transparency, data is data and facts are facts they favor no one and should be taken as they are.
"Taken as they are" means, at least to me, that it's not about (ahem) "discussion" (as opposed to the 'shouting matches' the other threads largely devolve into) of one's personal feelings about a situation the data/facts underlie. Or, as I said above...
  • The source material being referenced (then spun) in the media reports so that...
  • Calguns members can investigate for themselves what the source material actually says and the context for it
  • At which point Calguns members can make up their own, individual minds on whether there is even a problem or problems which need to be addressed

Want to debunk the media stories? Go to the source material being provided in this thread, see what it says or doesn't say, then go to a thread where those media stories are being discussed and 'unspin the spin' with the facts.

But, as I said, your site, your... 'rules.' You and, now, other members, have the power and the choice to allow for, at least, one, relatively 'clean' thread where source materials can be readily found without having to 'wade' through a seemingly endless back and forth repetition of... 'agree/disagree'... uh... 'topic branches.'



As I've said, it's up to you.
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  #92  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:20 AM
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Wait a minute....am I reading the Original Post correctly when it says that the same exact media that told us hillary literally had a 98% chance of winning, might be lying yet AGAIN to further their anti-gun agenda?

If so, I don't believe it!

CNN never lies!
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  #93  
Old 07-22-2019, 8:22 PM
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Some more information may soon be coming out in court filings if this is true. For the record, many NRA BoD Members had deals with AckMac not the least of which was Charlton Heston.

ex-nra-ad-firm-ackerman-mcqueen-um-wayne-lapierre-is-lying

"At issue is multi-million-dollar litigation between the NRA and its ex-ad firm. In court filings of its own, the NRA has alleged that Oliver North, the groups's former president, was ousted in part because he withheld information from the NRA about payments he took from Ackerman McQueen, which had served as the gun rights group’s primary ad contractor until just months ago. The NRA claims North kept the nature of his deal with Ackerman McQueen a secret from LaPierre and the gun group’s leadership.


But in a July 16 filing that was reviewed by The Daily Beast, Ackerman McQueen alleges that LaPierre himself helped negotiate the deal between their firm and North. And they hint that they have documentation to prove it. "
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  #94  
Old 07-23-2019, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by thmsmgnm View Post
Some more information may soon be coming out in court filings if this is true...
I saw that the other day, but haven't been able to find the filings The Daily Beast claims to have reviewed. They are not listed on the New York Supreme Court site in the NRA vs. North suit. Unfortunately, the article does not, specifically, note which suit it was filed in relation to; though that seems the most directly relevant. Of course, it is possible that the clerk just hasn't gotten 'round to posting them yet.
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  #95  
Old 07-23-2019, 3:23 AM
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I wasn't going to make any more contributions to this thread if all that was going to happen was for those contributions to be buried in... ahem... 'topic branches.' But, since it's been pretty good for the last 10 or 11 days and more has become available, let's try this again.

Remember, I'm not expressing an opinion and would rather such opinions be placed on threads dedicated to the specific topic. This thread is intended more as a 'reference thread' so that people can readily find links to the source documents, then discuss it on threads specifically dedicated to those topics.

On the Jennifer Baker Out At the NRA thread, I placed the following...

Here is a purported copy of LaPierre's memo announcing the consolidation of NRA's public affairs, eliminating Baker's position (see my post above).

Quote:
...The restructuring efforts above are as a result of extensive research, reflection, and listening to the concerns and suggestions from staff and key stakeholders. We aim to utilize our innovation on an all-encompassing scale while unifying the underlying processes and sales/advertising opportunities critical to our organizational health and vitality...
I say 'purported' in that the memo is dated a day after the posts in this thread announcing the consolidation and Jennifer Baker's ouster. Also, according to Rolling Stone, LaPierre sent an e-mail to NRA staff on 16 July with partially the same verbiage.

In other words, both the e-mail and the memo aren't .pdf copies and can't be separated from the text of the blog post or article.
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  #96  
Old 07-23-2019, 7:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
I wasn't going to make any more contributions to this thread if all that was going to happen was for those contributions to be buried in... ahem... 'topic branches.' But, since it's been pretty good for the last 10 or 11 days and more has become available, let's try this again.
.
You and your bud thmsmgnm are just just two shills for anti 2nd Amendment Bloomberg and his ilk.
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  #97  
Old 07-23-2019, 9:13 AM
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Tell it to Tom Gresham, a guy who has recruited more NRA Life Members than just about anyone other than the NRA membership division, who is calling for NRA EVP to go, fired, retired, or however. Then there RK Bob Brown longtime NRA BoD member, who finally after what is years of requesting financial and membership information as a NRA BoD member and being stonewalled, is calling for Wayne to go and a full review of NRA practice s and financials.

One might call Gresham a Fudd, but no one will say that of RK Bob Brown. Now Robert Luth founder of DPMS/Panther Arms is also calling for Wayne to go. David Cordea longtime critic of NRA leadership and others are saying the same.

For the record all say that gun owners need a strong NRA, all say that Wayne must go for that to happen. "5 million members, there are 100+ million gun owners, why not 20 million NRA members.."
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  #98  
Old 07-23-2019, 9:28 AM
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It may well be that the whole thing is a misinformation campaign by the opposition. My concern, though, is the viability of the NRA as an organization -- because it IS such a crucial entity if we hope to protect our 2A rights. A house divided cannot stand. We may have our differences, but we all share the desire to see the 2nd A survive these attacks.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thmsmgnm View Post
Tell it to Tom Gresham, a guy who has recruited more NRA Life Members than just about anyone other than the NRA membership division, who is calling for NRA EVP to go, fired, retired, or however. Then there RK Bob Brown longtime NRA BoD member, who finally after what is years of requesting financial and membership information as a NRA BoD member and being stonewalled, is calling for Wayne to go and a full review of NRA practice s and financials.

One might call Gresham a Fudd, but no one will say that of RK Bob Brown. Now Robert Luth founder of DPMS/Panther Arms is also calling for Wayne to go. David Cordea longtime critic of NRA leadership and others are saying the same.

For the record all say that gun owners need a strong NRA, all say that Wayne must go for that to happen. "5 million members, there are 100+ million gun owners, why not 20 million NRA members.."
Why not "20 million members"? Is that intended to mean membership could be that high if only NRA were better at messaging? A presumption should be made that 20 million members would necessarily include more folks OK with magazine limits, waiting periods, AW ban, banning private sales, etc. Is that helpful, on balance?

How many members are there in SAF and GOA? Far fewer. Is their messaging deficient?

I've been an NRA member since about 1974. I've heard all the excuses going back to the calm and politically disconnected Maxwell Rich days. It costs too much - this coming from people who order take out pizza and drink bottled water. Too many phone calls or mailers complaints. Their "gifts" are from China. The old "in 1934 they supported NFA" or "Reagan supported gun control" - sure, once. In 1967. The list goes on and on. It comes down to a relatively simple truth. That about 2% of people respond to mailers and invites and 95% of people are content to let others do the work. And that $25.00 membership dues - well hell, that's a box of ammo.

There's a difference between constructive criticism and simple complaining. And there's a complete absence of information regarding what "Save the 2nd" is attempting to accomplish. It unfortunately takes a back seat to the easy task of griping. What's the ratio on that - about 100 to 1?

Correct me if I'm mistaken. There are 25 members of the NRA Board of Directors, correct? And we thus far have about 5 who are requesting independent financials or change in the VP position. Without saying "20 of them are bought & paid for" or something equally dismissive, why should 80% of duly elected types be controlled by 20%?

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Old 07-23-2019, 10:52 AM
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It may well be that the whole thing is a misinformation campaign by the opposition. My concern, though, is the viability of the NRA as an organization -- because it IS such a crucial entity if we hope to protect our 2A rights. A house divided cannot stand. We may have our differences, but we all share the desire to see the 2nd A survive these attacks.
It shouldn't be lost on anyone that we have a presidential election coming up and that in 2016 a strong NRA contributed money and votes to the now incumbent. On some level, such as NY state, there's a certain amount of "payback" involved and a desire to keep NRA busy holding down the fort rather than campaigning for Trump's re-election.

Whatever NRA should do to adjust course, the membership and board will determine. It should be done from a position of strength, not reactive or appearing to cave in to pressure.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:46 AM
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... a desire to keep NRA busy holding down the fort rather than campaigning for Trump's re-election...
I suspect this is the be all, end all of the whole thing, regardless of the validity of any of the assertions. Anything else they manage to 'accomplish' in terms of weakening the NRA's ability to fight for the 2nd Amendment is likely considered a bonus.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:20 PM
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I suspect this is the be all, end all of the whole thing, regardless of the validity of any of the assertions. Anything else they manage to 'accomplish' in terms of weakening the NRA's ability to fight for the 2nd Amendment is likely considered a bonus.

Everyone who in the Gun Community that has come forward calling for transparency and for Wayne and his company to go have stated, repeatedly this needs to happen now and not because of NY state intervention next year.

Several have also pointed out that Wayne being a part of the NRA next year during a state investigation or a criminal investigation (given that NY AG is clearly looking to looking to do permanent damage to the NRA we should expect her to try to go that far.) Hell there is enough smoke right now where the NRA is concerned that there are probably people in tight races thinking about such an event and planning how to distance themselves from the NRA.

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Old 07-24-2019, 12:05 AM
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This was posted by Joel Friedman, he is a member of Calguns, a CRPA Director and NRA Board member.

I've known Joel not only as a 2A advocate but as a friend for well over a decade.
I know him, I trust him and many long standing Calgunners are well aware of Joel, his history and his integrity.

Quote:
Setting the Record Straight

While I have wanted to speak out concerning the situation at the NRA, I have not due to the amount of litigation that has been ongoing, as well as my belief in the fiduciary responsibilities of a board member and trustee. However, I feel strongly about our mission to protect the Second Amendment, and while I may be maligned by some for sharing my thoughts, I can no longer remain silent.

I am not a Johnny-come-lately. I have been involved in the firearm rights movement for over 30 years, primarily at the grassroots level in California. I have gotten hard, calloused hands from my work, and I’m proud of it. I have been on the NRA Board of Directors since 2004 and served on various committees.

I would like to begin by discussing how we, the NRA, got to where we are today. After the election of Donald Trump – an election in which the NRA played a key role in securing his victory – the other side determined that they must find a way to neutralize, if not completely destroy, our Association in an attempt to win back Congress, the White House, and to destroy firearms’ freedoms as we know them today.

Funding for this anti-NRA campaign comes from people whose net worth is more than 11 figures. Their interest income alone from a month or two is so much greater than the entire budget of the NRA. For you and me, it is hard to conceive of such wealth.

Through the talents of those they hired, these people are working to destroy the reputation of the NRA – and attack our not-for-profit status. As we know, ongoing investigations by the attorneys general in New York and Washington D.C. have caused the NRA to use more resources for legal help than anyone could have ever imagined. But it is a battle we must fight based on our commitment to good governance. Losing our not-for-profit status would put the NRA out of business. I fear it would also lead to a repeal of the Second Amendment.

Beyond this critical fight, we also are waging a battle that could impact advocacy organizations across our nation. Our First Amendment lawsuit against New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and the New York State Department of Financial Services (DFS) is so significant that the ACLU has filed an amicus brief in support of the Association.

The NRA contends that Governor Cuomo and DFS are trying to coerce banks and insurance companies to withhold services from the NRA as retaliation for our political advocacy. If New York is successful in violating the NRA’s First Amendment rights, then every advocacy group in this country is at risk. We cannot allow politicians to determine who should and should not be in business because of their political or religious views.

In the face of orchestrated campaigns and legal disputes, the NRA has made tough decisions – demanding, among other things, increased transparency from its vendors. Most complied, but not all.

After 38 years of working hand-in-hand with the NRA, it is MY BELIEF that one of our vendors attempted to take over NRA leadership in order to preserve its own lucrative contracts. It is also MY BELIEF that this vendor had, for some time, believed that the NRA’s entire success was due to its efforts alone.

For more information on this, I encourage you to read the NRA’s lawsuit filed against Col. North. You will see what was done, and what was attempted, by this vendor.

As we know, the takeover attempt failed. Subsequently, as threatened, certain documents were leaked online with an aim to make NRA top management and board members look bad.
When tens of millions of dollars are on the line, some people will do extraordinary things.
I know there have been comments from certain individuals about how much money the NRA is “wasting” using its current legal firm. I bring to you a quote from Mr. Harlon Carter, creator of ILA and someone who brought the NRA into the political fight that would be necessary to preserve the Second Amendment.

He said, “I’ll spend every dime the NRA has to protect the Second Amendment.” Ladies and gentlemen, the NRA is in a fight for its life right now.

For those who have had negative things to say about the law firm representing us, I ask one simple question: Name one thing the firm has done that has hurt the NRA? Thus far, no one has been able to answer that question. The reality is, the firm has continuously moved the ball forward and pulled off improbable and extraordinary victories, while handling multiple cases on multiple playing fields.

With regard to the allegations made against Wayne LaPierre – brought forward in conjunction with the failed takeover attempt – I would like to remind everyone that he has given his life to the NRA and to the protection of the Second Amendment. Over the years, he excelled in every position he held and was finally elected as Executive Vice President (EVP) in 1991. During his tenure as EVP, the NRA grew from an anemic less-than-two-million-member association into a more than five-million-member powerhouse.

From his days as an NRA lobbyist to now, Wayne has played a pivotal role in our greatest accomplishments. For instance, when we kept the Gun Control Act of 1968 from taking your guns. When we lost on the “assault weapon ban,” but were smart enough to push for a 10-year sunset clause that expired. When we passed the ’86 Firearm Owners Protection Act. We stopped excessive waiting periods and one-a-month purchase schemes. The NRA led the fight to increase carry states from three to more than 40. Consider the NRA’s growth, under Wayne, from a standpoint of influence, finance and power.

Some claim his time has passed. I disagree. Wayne is still guiding the NRA faithfully, strategically and correctly through the most difficult time in its 150-year history. And after over four decades, Wayne knows more people, has more insight, and garners more respect than anyone I know. His absence alone would create problems not only for the NRA, but for the defense of the Second Amendment.

I want to directly address all the “lavish” spending that Wayne has been accused of.
Over the last 15 years, he has done hundreds of media interviews, campaign commercials, and attended thousands of events in promotion of the NRA and the Second Amendment. His wardrobe expenditures were directed by Ackerman McQueen. The agency invoiced the NRA for the clothing as a business expense.

During that same period, Wayne was responsible for helping to raise $300-400 million annually, or $25-33 million a month. But for discussion purposes only, let’s say that Wayne, through his direct involvement in speeches and media appearances, helped raise roughly $8 million a month (that’s 25%). That translates in 15 years to $1.5 billion. In that circumstance, the money spent on clothes is miniscule – not to mention the number of people this money helped elect who have stood by us and helped us save the Second Amendment.

Now, go and check other large associations in the hundred(s) million-dollar world and see what their CEO is getting in total renumerations. The truth is, Mr. Wayne LaPierre is one of the most underpaid people in the giant trade and interest group world by percentage.

Now let’s talk about the trips. These trips were to secure and interact with both donors and high-profile individuals and to arrange for the donation of firearms. Do you think the NRA’s high-profile supporters magically appear to support our cause? Do you think that this happens overnight? That is what Wayne and only Wayne is able to do based on his reputation.
So the idea that his time has passed and it’s time for him to leave is probably the single largest mistake anyone can make. Everyone should not only be thankful, but should pray for his continued good health and dedication. This man has received more death threats than almost anyone else on the planet. For Pete’s sake – Google it – it’s public knowledge – Wayne LaPierre was “swatted!” He and his family have been targeted in more ways than anyone can imagine.
Let us discuss what some of the anti-NRA, anti-Wayne people are saying, "I don't know what's going on but ...".

Now to be fair, that's because they don't know, and they can't know the details because of the lawsuits as well as the New York investigation. Therefore, isn’t it ludicrous for anyone to make decisions and proclamations after admitting they’re ignorant of the facts.

I ask you to consider this for a moment – do you think that there’s anyone better equipped to guide the NRA during these challenging times? The neophytes who are agitating would get their clocks cleaned in about 2 hours! Even our former chief lobbyist – as talented as he may be - wouldn’t be able to navigate this. Let’s face it – the reason the opposition wants Wayne gone is because they know without him, it’s easier to take down the NRA. And, now, we have some so-called pro-gun types naively joining the chorus!

The last part of my message has to do with the concept that the NRA is wasting its money and there is no oversight. Not only do we have a Treasurer’s department, we have a finance committee overseeing the organization, and we have an audit committee. We are all under such a microscope that I personally have been refused payments for expenses I have incurred because I only had credit card statements and not the actual receipts. This idea that the board and top management are ripping off the organization is just another attempt to separate us and to neuter our ability to do the job we need to do in 2020, which is to protect the rights of firearm owners in America. No one else can do it, and if we all don’t stick together and stop letting the haters and the media drive us apart, the anti-gunners will win.

You don’t believe me? In an article from The Hill, “Democrats Look to Capitalize on Turmoil Inside the NRA,” dated July 23, 2019, Democratic members of congress claim that we are plagued by “internal problems” and state, “Now’s the time to capitalize on that.”

Kris Brown, president of the Brady Campaign, states, “Given the series of self-inflicted wounds that they have, which are draining significantly diminished resources at a significant rate, yes, it’s obviously a time for us really to focus on pushing candidates and pushing this issue.”

I believe many are fueling the exact false and inaccurate narrative driven by our adversaries – dividing us in a manner that weakens the Association and strengthens our enemies. We must not posture our adversaries for success. Doing so supports them in their aim is to take away our constitutional freedoms.

In closing, please allow me to say that we truly appreciate that the majority of our members are committed to the NRA – and its fight to protect the Second Amendment. We appreciate that they, like us, trust that we'll prevail over these orchestrated attacks.

The stakes are higher than they have ever been. It is time to come together – united and committed in support of the NRA and the constitutional freedoms in which we all believe.

Joel Friedman
NRA Board Member

http://joel4nra.com/2019/07/24/setti...cord-straight/
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  #104  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This was posted by Joel Friedman, he is a member of Calguns, a CRPA Director and NRA Board member.

I've known Joel not only as a 2A advocate but as a friend for well over a decade.
I know him, I trust him and many long standing Calgunners are well aware of Joel, his history and his integrity.
Thankyou.
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Old 07-24-2019, 1:21 AM
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This was posted by Joel Friedman, he is a member of Calguns, a CRPA Director and NRA Board member...

http://joel4nra.com/2019/07/24/setti...cord-straight/
This is, in part, the side of the story many of us have been waiting for. While I have some minor quibbles regarding things he put in his statement, the reality is that he does address some of the... uh... particulars... finally; at least to some degree.

As I've said, several times, I believe Bloomberg's 'ad campaign' likely specifically targeted pre-existing concerns among NRA members. Friedman's statement, at least superficially, seems to reinforce that notion. Unfortunately, we are still confronted by the reality that there are divisions and the source documents can be, partly, interpreted as raising valid questions, no matter how limited their actual scope may be.

At some point, the NRA, as an organization, is going to need to address those concerns and questions, specifically. Friedman's statement is a beginning, but as he clearly states, it is "HIS BELIEF." Many share that/those belief(s). Many are sympathetic to them. For some, that is sufficient for making up their mind. Faith and trust in an individual is a good thing. If you believe in Friedman and/or LaPierre, that's good.

Just understand that others are not going to be readily swayed by anecdotal displays of support. It's unfortunate in many ways. However, it should not be turned into a litmus test for being a 'true' gun owner, supporter of the 2nd Amendment, Calguns/NRA member, conservative, et al. As Friedman said...

Quote:
For more information on this, I encourage you to read the NRA’s lawsuit filed against Col. North. You will see what was done, and what was attempted, by this vendor.
This is why Calguns provided the 990's. This is precisely why I started this thread and have been posting source documents such as...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
NRA vs. North

Relevant quote...

Quote:
E. In April 2019, North Again Acts In Bad Faith, And Again Breaches His Fiduciary Duties—Again, To Deflect Scrutiny From His Seven-Figure Contract...

48. North and his co-conspirators orchestrated these threats through, among other things, a string of text messages that are filed herewith. The text messages were produced in the Virginia Litigation by Dan Boren, an NRA board member employed by one of Ackerman’s other major clients, the Chickasaw Nation. Boren relayed the contents of Ackerman’s threatened letter to North and helped to choreograph the ultimatum they presented to Mr. LaPierre. Moreover, in email correspondence transmitted over non-NRA servers, Boren admitted his knowledge that Ackerman may have been invoicing the NRA for full salaries of employees who were actually working on the Chickasaw Nation account. The same text messages and email messages demonstrate that another errant NRA fiduciary, Chris Cox [4] —once thought by some to be a likely successor for Mr. LaPierre—participated in the Ackerman/North/Boren conspiracy...
(italic/bold emphasis mine)

The [4] is a footnote which states: Identified in text messages as CC and Chris.

I guess this is the text message.

If you go to the New York Supreme Court website, you can find everything that has been submitted related to the case. You may have to enter characters to prove you're not a bot. Once you do, you will need to enter the index number - 653577/2019. Among those submissions are the original complaint and North's filings, which include...

Defendant's Answer and Counterclaims
18 April 2019 Letter from North to NRA's Frazer and Cotton
25 April 2019 Memo from North to NRA Executive Committee
12 June 2019 Letter from North's Counsel to NRA General Counsel
6 May 2019 North Indemnification Request to NRA
6 June 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification
1 July 2019 Letter to NRA re: Indemnification
But, I've gotten 'jumped' for doing that. People have been attempting to derail the thread with... "topic branches." Whether deliberately, well-intentioned, or being agenda driven, the misrepresentations of what I have been trying to do, the personal insults, and the attempts to 'bury' information have been... disheartening.

I suspect, and this is one of my minor quibbles with Friedman's statement, that the reason is there are TWO SIDES to such a lawsuit. What you see by following Friedman's advice is ONE SIDE of the story; e.g., the NRA's accusations. That's fine. It's information which can be utilized in formulating an informed opinion.

What I and several others have been arguing is that we want to hear both sides, which is why I linked to the New York Supreme Court website. That way, members can peruse not only the case filed by the NRA, but the counter information filed by those they accuse. Members can then look at the information both sides are claiming to base their take upon, then we can make up our own minds through some combination of what mrrabbit declared above as sources - some original, some secondary, and some that can put in that category known as "innuendo". All of that will be filtered through some form of personal premise and that is why there has been resistance, from both ends of the spectrum.

Cutting to the chase...

Kestryll - I find your contribution of Friedman's post to be helpful to the intent of this thread. Some will see it as definitive, others will see it less so, and still others will, unfortunately, discount it entirely. Let's hope it doesn't get buried in a succession of 'topic branches' that are better discussed on other threads.

Thanks.

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-24-2019 at 1:37 AM..
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  #106  
Old 07-24-2019, 6:52 AM
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In response to the post above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
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Originally Posted by thmsmgnm View Post
Some more information may soon be coming out in court filings if this is true...
I saw that the other day, but haven't been able to find the filings The Daily Beast claims to have reviewed. They are not listed on the New York Supreme Court site in the NRA vs. North suit. Unfortunately, the article does not, specifically, note which suit it was filed in relation to; though that seems the most directly relevant. Of course, it is possible that the clerk just hasn't gotten 'round to posting them yet.
It appears as though the 7/16 filings referenced are not a part of the NRA vs. North suit. In perusing the timelines of the two cases the NRA has filed against Ackerman-McQueen, there is a list of several filings for 7/16 on the first case, filed 12 April, which would be this one. Included is a 63 page "Answer." (For reference, this is the complaint filed by the NRA on 5/22.)

At this juncture, I'm still trying to figure out how The Daily Beast accessed the filings in order to 'review' them.

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Old 07-24-2019, 10:06 AM
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Default Responding To Joel Friedman

Let me respond to Joel Friedman whipping up the Coup narrative. The vendors that "attempted to take over the NRA" in this scenario would be Ackerman-McQueen. The same PR company the NRA Executive BoD members directed Wayne LaPierre to fire back in the late 1990s because there was a lack of paperwork to back up the $$$$ being paid to AckMac. Instead of Wayne doing as he was ordered by the Executive BoD, Wayne teamed up with AckMac to force out the NRA Officers who wanted Ackmac gone and the vendor contracts cleaned up.

Now as to the attacks from the state of NY. This would not be an issue if the NRA got off it's lazy *** and moved the NRA charter to Virginia, the state where it's HQ is located. Which would save court costs to the NRA if there was a lawsuit involving a state regulator. Not to mention the simmering hostilities between the NRA and the state of NY for decades. Same for the NRA Foundation being chartered in Washington D.C.. These are self inflicted wounds and according to observes at least one NRA BoD member brought this up sometime in the last decade.

Also, why is the law firm the NRA using located in Texas (travel costs are paid by the clients as in the NRA) and why would you hire a law firm whose named partner is related by marriage to a major vendor, like AckMac? Why would you keep the firm when you had to sue said company and by extension the family your lawyer is married into? Then there is the lack of license to practice law in the state of Virginia by said named partner. Finally the small matter of ongoing Texas Bar disciplinary issue with said named partner that prevents him from obtaining permission from a judge in VA to get a temporary law license to practice in VA? Oh did anyone mention the named partner donates to anti-gun Democrats?

Since Joel is a member of the NRA BoD I am sure he could ask Wayne these questions, unless he is afraid of ending up on the naughty list.
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Old 07-24-2019, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This was posted by Joel Friedman, he is a member of Calguns, a CRPA Director and NRA Board member.

I've known Joel not only as a 2A advocate but as a friend for well over a decade.
I know him, I trust him and many long standing Calgunners are well aware of Joel, his history and his integrity.
It's unfortunate but not surprising that Friedman's message is dismissed by some as carrying water for Wayne Lapierre. They are neither members nor supporters, I'm not sure why they'd anticipate having any standing in the matter. That some continue to post passive aggressive missives against an organization rather than using the opportunity and forum to speak well of their own, such as Save the 2nd, is telling. And probably doesn't portend well for them.

Friedman gives us his position. It is part of the whole story. To dismiss it as being "afraid" merely promotes an agenda.

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Old 07-24-2019, 10:33 PM
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Default The Source For The Heated Exchanges Regarding the NRA

I’m jumping in here as I’m glad to see this discussion, no matter which side folks come down on. Hopefully this is the right forum for this comment.

I’ve been an NRA member since 1976, a Life Member since ‘84, and an Endowment, Patron, or Benefactor Life Member since ‘96. I’m a CRPA member of course, an NRA and CA DOJ Instructor, have a CCW, and at one time or another have been a member of GOC, GOA, 2AF, and even the JPFO years ago (I’m not Jewish, but they do, or did, good work.)

What has really concerned me over the past few weeks is the lack of communication from NRA leadership on what’s going on, but it came to a head for me yesterday when I watched a video on YouTube that was frankly shocking. Not so much because of the content, but the casual way a few dozen supposed NRA members just turned in a second with comments like “F@&k the NRA!” and “The NRA has never done one thing to support the 2A!” and “The NRA should die!”

And since the video creator (Liberty Doll) plugged her new sponsor the USCCA, there were a few dozen “me too!” mindless comments touting how the USCCA was so superior in supporting gun rights to the NRA. WTF? Seriously? A concealed carry org? I’m sure they do good work (I prefer CCW Safe), but it will be another 148 years until they’re ready to take over for the NRA.

When I asked how many legislative battles the USCCA had won, I was called a “fudd ahole who supports the original gun control organization, the NRA.” One particular jerk last named “Beaver” kept citing the fact that the NRA supported the 1934 NFA as “proof” that the NRA was really anti-2A, and had been for its entire existence.
—>> What was disturbing was that people were buying that and repeating it! That is, unfortunately the NRA DID support the NFA back then, but to say they’ve never done anything since to promote the RKBA is ludicrous.

Anyway, we all know the Internet is full of uninformed *****holes, but it almost seemed as if I was on an anti-gun website, (and maybe I was), but it bothered me how quickly supposedly pro-RKBA people could turn.

There didn’t seem to be any understanding among those people how widespread the NRA is in its training, hunting, and competition programs, and yet they all insisted they were hardcore members, or had been.

You know what was the one thing they all *****ed about? Membership fees, and being asked to donate. I admit, the constant letters get old, especially when you hear the tales of what LaPierre spent on clothes and travel and what his salary is, but I’m not getting into that; that doesn’t mean there aren’t RKBA battles to be fought in every State.

Liberty Doll pointed out legitimate concerns (IMO) about LaPierre, his spending and HQ power struggles, (and my _personal_ opinion is that he should probably resign at this point just to eliminate all the finger pointing), but then went a step further saying she’s not a member and wouldn’t join, then clearly set the tone and gave a platform to a boatload of NRA bashers that went on and on and on.

Personally I think that if she really IS as pro-2A as she says, she made a huge mistake, and her point got lost in subsequent NRA bashing, some of it probably by gleeful anti-gunners.

What I couldn’t get across to this bunch, and I tried for a day and probably 50 posts, is that by publicly slamming the NRA all they were doing was giving aid and comfort to every anti-gun group out there that has been laying for the NRA for years. Just stupid.

I do think it’s time for explanations and a leadership shakeup at NRA HQ, but I’m not going to be doing anything but support them until that happens.

It just goes to show you who your companions are when supposed RKBA champions disappear at the first sign of trouble, then ***** because they had to come up with $25 in dues.

Anyway, just needed to vent, and hopefully there are some people here who get what I’m trying to say, thanks.
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Old 08-10-2019, 2:14 PM
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Thankyou.
And with that we should stop spreading anti NRA fake news on this forum. Nuke those threads.
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Old 08-10-2019, 2:44 PM
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I think the lack of communication is definitely concerning. Tell us, the membership, what is going on. If they can’t legally comment, explain that to us. Being left in the dark is an uneasy feeling.
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Old 08-10-2019, 8:22 PM
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In response to the post above...

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Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
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Some more information may soon be coming out in court filings if this is true...
I saw that the other day, but haven't been able to find the filings The Daily Beast claims to have reviewed. They are not listed on the New York Supreme Court site in the NRA vs. North suit. Unfortunately, the article does not, specifically, note which suit it was filed in relation to; though that seems the most directly relevant. Of course, it is possible that the clerk just hasn't gotten 'round to posting them yet.
It appears as though the 7/16 filings referenced are not a part of the NRA vs. North suit. In perusing the timelines of the two cases the NRA has filed against Ackerman-McQueen, there is a list of several filings for 7/16 on the first case, filed 12 April, which would be this one. Included is a 63 page "Answer." (For reference, this is the complaint filed by the NRA on 5/22.)

At this juncture, I'm still trying to figure out how The Daily Beast accessed the filings in order to 'review' them.
I still haven't found access to the 16 July filings; though, to be honest, I haven't spent much time looking at this point.

However, in an effort to address the hanging innuendo presented in the post made about "more information to come," there seems to be a possibility that part (or all) of the documentation Ackerman-McQueen supposedly included in that filing is related to information presented in the Oliver North letter from April. Remember, according to the purported claim by The Daily Beast...

Quote:
...But in a July 16 filing that was reviewed by The Daily Beast, Ackerman McQueen alleges that LaPierre himself helped negotiate the deal between their firm and North. And they hint that they have documentation to prove it.

In a statement, the NRA denied the suggestions. “The facts are clear – Mr. LaPierre and the NRA had no idea that Col. North was negotiating to become an employee of Ackerman McQueen,” said Andrew Arulanandam, managing director of NRA Public Affairs. “And to the extent Col. North was pushing a contrived narrative about Mr. LaPierre and the NRA, he was conflicted. He was an employee of Ackerman at the time he was allegedly scheming with the agency to unseat Mr. LaPierre.” ...
In the Oliver North letter from April, you find the following passage...

Quote:
...As you are aware, my contract and work with Ackerman McQueen on NRATV is well known at the NRA. Wayne knew about my contract from its inception, because it was his idea that I leave my job at Fox News, become President of NRA, and enter into a contract with Ackerman McQueen to work on NRATV. Wayne helped negotiate the contract. I have understood at all times, the contract was approved by the NRA because Wayne was instrumental in creating it, and that was in the NRA's best interest...
Attached to that letter is a PROPOSED NRA Audit Committee Report 'stipulating' that they have received and reviewed North's contract.

I do not know if that proposed report was ever signed off on by the NRA Audit Committee.

Unfortunately, as I indicated, I can't be more specific as to the actual filing; but, the above seems to be a fair bet as to, at least, some of the specifics of the filing.
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  #113  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:24 PM
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The only thing required for evil to prevail nowadays is to create a few "fake" social media accounts, and get the good guys fighting amongst themselves so they lose sight of the real enemy... who can then simply spread evil unopposed.


Sometimes there are more sides to the story than are easily seen. Inciting or instigating "friendly fire" is a potent leftist tactical move.
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Old 08-11-2019, 3:43 AM
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To whom are you referring, DB?
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Old 08-11-2019, 7:45 PM
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It appears as though there is a 'subscription fee' required to obtain images of the Ackerman-McQueen lawsuit filings. Since I'm not interested in setting up an account and paying a fee, we'll just have to wait until someone else posts the documents.

However...

It appears as though Pretrial conference has been set for 3/6/2020 on the April 12 filed case, with Trial to begin 4/6/2020. The same schedule is listed for the May 22 filed case.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:58 AM
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The only thing required for evil to prevail nowadays is to create a few "fake" social media accounts, and get the good guys fighting amongst themselves so they lose sight of the real enemy... who can then simply spread evil unopposed.


Sometimes there are more sides to the story than are easily seen. Inciting or instigating "friendly fire" is a potent leftist tactical move.
+1000 see examples throughout every anti NRA thread !
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:03 AM
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To whom are you referring, DB?
While DB has not answered the question you asked. I will flat out state EVERYONE who has ignored the posts by Kestryl and continued to beat this dead horse by posting negative comments about Wayne or the current board.
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"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams.
Who is John Galt!
Recent NRA LIFE ENDOWMENT MEMBER--on the way to PATRON. See you friends, in Nashville next April 2020.
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