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Private Ammo Sales For the Private Sale of Ammo. Read the rules before posting.

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  #1  
Old 01-04-2018, 11:42 PM
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Default Ammo Sales Forum RE-OPENED

After seeking counsel and reviewing the text of the new law we are reopening the Private Ammo Sales forum.

We are simply providing a venue to arrange for the legal buying and selling.
As always it is up to each member to make sure their sales and/or purchases are conducted in a legal manner.

Just to be clear and for those unfamiliar with the law:
Quote:
30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.
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Last edited by Kestryll; 02-18-2018 at 9:18 PM..
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2018, 9:51 PM
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Good to hear. What I do is go through my FFL, they are all licensed to transfer ammo.
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2018, 7:25 AM
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I have had recent, though limited experience with two FFLs, one willing to do the ammo transfer the other not, even if the ammo transfer was to be conducted at the same time as a firearm PPT. My take is that the "administrative fee" is not worth the time of the FFL. So always call ahead of time and save unnecessary and frustrating trips.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:10 AM
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Is ammo vendor required for 500 rounds or less in a 30 day period? Please do not respond if you do not know. No I THINK answers, Have asked before and never got an answer.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:15 AM
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so if I want to a do a private FTF sale of ammo (lets say over 500 rounds). I have to use a "vendor" (aka FFL?).....what is the cost for this service?

Does this apply for ammo under 500 rounds (like lets just say a box of 50 rounds of 22lr) and done privately?

Sorry....a little slow on this law...

Last edited by JustaBlokeAnywhere; 02-19-2018 at 11:22 AM..
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Is ammo vendor required for 500 rounds or less in a 30 day period? Please do not respond if you do not know. No I THINK answers, Have asked before and never got an answer.
It depends on how you read the following two sections in the PC together.

Quote:
30342. (a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.

30312. (a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.
You can sell 500 rounds within a 30-day period without a license, but the sale must go through a licensed ammo vendor or an FFL01. If you sell more than that, you yourself need to get a license.

Also -- I mean this in a kind way -- the answers you get here are by their very nature "I THINK" answers. If you need a definitive answer, you'll have to talk to your lawyer or ask the DOJ directly.

Last edited by auffie.hk; 02-19-2018 at 11:52 AM.. Reason: grammar
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  #7  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Is ammo vendor required for 500 rounds or less in a 30 day period? Please do not respond if you do not know. No I THINK answers, Have asked before and never got an answer.
Yes, per the clear language of PC Sec. 30312, cited above in the initial post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaBlokeAnywhere View Post
so if I want to a do a private FTF sale of ammo (lets say over 500 rounds). I have to use a "vendor" (aka FFL?)
No. Per PC Sec. 30342, if you sell more than 500 rounds in any 30-day period, you will have to get your own valid ammunition vendor license to do it.

For reference:

Quote:
30342.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.
(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=30342.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaBlokeAnywhere View Post
Does this apply for ammo under 500 rounds (like lets just say a box of 50 rounds of 22lr) and done privately?
Yes. An amount of 500 or fewer rounds may be processed through a licensed ammunition vendor. See PC Sec. 30312, cited above in the initial post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaBlokeAnywhere View Post
I'm asking the same thing....I've googled it and it doesn't look like there is clear language to clarify this point.
It doesn't get much clearer than the language in PC Sec. 30312:

Quote:
30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auffie.hk View Post
It depends on how you read the following two sections in the PC together.



You can sell 500 rounds within a 30-day period without a license, but the sale must go through a licensed ammo vendor or an FFL01. If you sell more than that, you yourself need to get a license.

Also -- I mean this in a kind way -- the answers you get here are by their very nature "I THINK" answers. If you need a definitive answer, you'll have to talk to your lawyer or ask the DOJ directly.
So, it sounds like you if you wish to sell >500 rounds in one month, you need an ammo vendor license even if you are selling to someone out-of-state. The PC doesn't seem to make any distinction about in-state vs out-of-state sales. Can anyone double-check my logic here? The way I see it, it's illegal for me to hock a 1000rd case of ammo on Gunbroker to some yokel in Tennesee?
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Old 02-19-2018, 2:19 PM
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So less than 500 a month is GTG??

Si o No

Tnx in advance
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Old 02-19-2018, 2:24 PM
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^ Correct. More specifically < 500 in 30 days. Which means if you sell 500 on Feb 19, you can't sell another 500 March 2nd. Must be 30 days between transactions.

I would be interested in hearing from anybody that has gone through a transaction via FFL. What info is recorded or documents required for either party. TIA.

Last edited by lone shooter; 02-19-2018 at 2:26 PM..
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Old 02-19-2018, 4:09 PM
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Anyone knows how much an FFL will for these transactions?
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2018, 4:15 PM
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I recently completed a transfer of fewer than 300 rounds via an FFL. The info recorded was: (1) (photocopy of) each party's drivers license, (2) brand names and types of ammo, and number of rounds.

One other thing: the fee was small ($5 -- set by DOJ regulations?) and I can understand why some FFLs might not be willing to do an ammo transfer. (One of the two FFLs whom I contacted refused to conduct the ammo transfer, even when done together with a DROS/PPT of a firearm.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lone shooter View Post
^ Correct. More specifically < 500 in 30 days. Which means if you sell 500 on Feb 19, you can't sell another 500 March 2nd. Must be 30 days between transactions.

I would be interested in hearing from anybody that has gone through a transaction via FFL. What info is recorded or documents required for either party. TIA.
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2018, 4:18 PM
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For my recent transfer, my FFL charged $5. I think this fee is set by DOJ regulations, and because it is low some FFLs might be unwilling to conduct ammo transfers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainsavaho View Post
Anyone knows how much an FFL will for these transactions?
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Old 02-19-2018, 5:45 PM
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So basically no more private transfers of unopened Winchester 555 .22lr.
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:23 PM
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what is the understanding on this situation. if a buyer has a FFL03 and the COE does the seller who has neither still have to go to a FFL01 ?
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:45 PM
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i was just curious since an FFL03 is allowed to buy ammo directly shipped to them from out of state vendors for personnel use
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2018, 8:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcjunky3 View Post
i was just curious since an FFL03 is allowed to buy ammo directly shipped to them from out of state vendors for personnel use
Here's the section in the PC that grants LAV status to FFLs. I don't see anything about restriction to certain classes of FFL, so I suppose an FFL03 qualifies as an LAV. [Update: See Mayor McRifle's reply re: FFL03 being a collector not a dealer.]

Quote:
30385. (d) Commencing January 1, 2018, a firearms dealer licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall automatically be deemed a licensed ammunition vendor, provided the dealer complies with the requirements of Article 2 (commencing with Section 30300) and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342).
Then again, I haven't read everything. My understanding so far is that, if you sell <500 in a 30-day period to someone considered an LAV, that's fine, since the transaction is "conducted by" an LAV who is the buyer himself. If you sell more than that, you yourself need a license to sell; that requirement is placed on the seller not the buyer. In that case, however, you can sell it to anyone since you are conducting the transaction.

Last edited by auffie.hk; 02-19-2018 at 8:44 PM.. Reason: Update noting correction by another member to stop propagation of incorrect info.
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Old 02-19-2018, 8:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auffie.hk View Post
Here's the section in the PC that grants LAV status to FFLs. I don't see anything about restriction to certain classes of FFL, so I suppose an FFL03 qualifies as an LAV.
An FFL 03 is a collector, not a dealer.
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Old 02-19-2018, 9:47 PM
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Certainly not different than having the Long Gun and Handgun sales area.
Thanks for reviving this!
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:13 PM
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So between my wife and myself we have 1000rds of ammo and want to sell it to one individual. So she sell her 500 and I sell my 500 each as completely separate transactions (through an FFL) and the individual takes home a total of 1000rds of ammo he bought in two separate transactions. Got to love laws that do nothing but make honest people have to jump through hoops because we all know the bad guys will too.

Last edited by HiveDR.; 02-19-2018 at 10:16 PM..
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:42 PM
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Sadly this has almost nothing to do with the bad guys or crime.

Its the FTB. They want their 8% which they have been missing out on. They got this submitted under false pretenses. Safety concerns plays better than the state doing a money grab.


I can understand it on new incoming, but it was made very transparent by them placing the restriction on private sellers limited to 500 per month. Screams money grab. Ammo venders have to have a sellers license and register with the FTB.

They give a rip if 5K rounds thru vendor ends up doing bad things, as long as they get their cut. Since checks are not operational the current regs do absolutely zero to prevent crime. All it does is get them their money now.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:39 PM
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What about this?

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=2.

30312.


(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:

(1) An authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state or federal government, if the sale, delivery, or transfer is for exclusive use by that government agency and, prior to the sale, delivery, or transfer of the ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee is obtained, identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.

(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6 of this title.

(5) A person whose licensed premises are outside this state and who is licensed as a dealer or collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(6) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(7) An ammunition vendor.

(8) A consultant-evaluator.

(9) A person who purchases or receives ammunition at a target facility holding a business or other regulatory license, provided that the ammunition is at all times kept within the facility’s premises.

(10) A person who purchases or receives ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

(11) A person enrolled in the basic training academy for peace officers or any other course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, an instructor of the academy or course, or a staff member of the academy or entity providing the course, who is purchasing the ammunition for the purpose of participation or use in the course.

(d) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
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Old 02-21-2018, 1:22 AM
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Who enforces this law? What if someone sells 1000 anyway because f them?
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Old 02-21-2018, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by deebix View Post
Who enforces this law? What if someone sells 1000 anyway because f them?
It doesn't matter.

Discussion of breaking the law or ways of getting away with it is a back stage pass to meet the banned.
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Old 02-22-2018, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpspinner View Post
What about this?

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=2.

30312.


(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:

(1) An authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state or federal government, if the sale, delivery, or transfer is for exclusive use by that government agency and, prior to the sale, delivery, or transfer of the ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee is obtained, identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.

(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6 of this title.

(5) A person whose licensed premises are outside this state and who is licensed as a dealer or collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(6) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(7) An ammunition vendor.

(8) A consultant-evaluator.

(9) A person who purchases or receives ammunition at a target facility holding a business or other regulatory license, provided that the ammunition is at all times kept within the facility’s premises.

(10) A person who purchases or receives ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

(11) A person enrolled in the basic training academy for peace officers or any other course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, an instructor of the academy or course, or a staff member of the academy or entity providing the course, who is purchasing the ammunition for the purpose of participation or use in the course.

(d) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
I'd like an answer to this as well. Plain reading of it seems to exempt C&R/COE holders from the need to go to an ammo vendor.
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Old 02-23-2018, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
I'd like an answer to this as well. Plain reading of it seems to exempt C&R/COE holders from the need to go to an ammo vendor.
Its fairly accepted / common knowledge that a 03/COE is excempt from purchase restrictions, where they are the recipient. Are you really asking if that is a global exemption including the selling and being the one who transfers to another person?
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erichp View Post
Its fairly accepted / common knowledge that a 03/COE is excempt from purchase restrictions, where they are the recipient. Are you really asking if that is a global exemption including the selling and being the one who transfers to another person?
I think most individuals are not accepting this. I have both FFL03 + COE and was trying to buy some ammo and the seller still telling me to meet him at an FFL
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:32 PM
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I was referring to the legal situation as that is the question and the exemption is clear.

But like any law, No one is saying anything about the man on the street and their understanding. Just like we have shops that wont ship to us in CA like LAX. You cant fix stupid

I wanted to clarify what was being asked as the exemption seems a given. But I dont read it as card blanche to act as an ammo vendor as some can take that snippet or may want to. Though it would be great.

At the end of the day all this crap is all about CA wanting their tax, nothing else.

The Problem is becoming gun shops that are refusing to let folks do transfers. Once that told me they would do it last month are not anymore. Using DOJ audits as an excuse.
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
After seeking counsel and reviewing the text of the new law we are reopening the Private Ammo Sales forum.

We are simply providing a venue to arrange for the legal buying and selling.
As always it is up to each member to make sure their sales and/or purchases are conducted in a legal manner.

Just to be clear and for those unfamiliar with the law:
I don't know if there is a place to do this, but it would also be nice to have a way of sharing which retail ammo vendors have a very good selection of ammunition.

For instance if I were looking for a vendor who sells match grade .308, or 6.5cm, or stocks CCI Minimag. It would be nice to know which stores in, say the East Bay, carry a good selection of each caliber.

I think finding a good selection of ammo is going to be much harder than just finding who carries 55gr 5.56.

Would a separate thread where forum members can share names and locations of good ammo stores work? IDK
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Old 02-23-2018, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
I don't know if there is a place to do this, but it would also be nice to have a way of sharing which retail ammo vendors have a very good selection of ammunition.

For instance if I were looking for a vendor who sells match grade .308, or 6.5cm, or stocks CCI Minimag. It would be nice to know which stores in, say the East Bay, carry a good selection of each caliber.

I think finding a good selection of ammo is going to be much harder than just finding who carries 55gr 5.56.

Would a separate thread where forum members can share names and locations of good ammo stores work? IDK
That's not a bad idea, maybe something in the Deals section.

It also gives me an idea for a community thread here in the Sales section.
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Old 02-23-2018, 6:33 PM
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That is a great addition. We may need to regionalize it though, else it could get a bit unruly?
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Old 02-25-2018, 9:47 PM
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How are your FFLs doing this? I contacted 3 FFLs in my area and all of them said they are not doing private party ammo transfers and that the DOJ has not even set up the required website that the FFL is supposed to upload the information to

Can anyone confirm FFLs have the ability to process these transactions?
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Old 02-26-2018, 6:41 AM
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There are some discussions is the FFL's forum which may shed some light from the FFLs' perspective. The second thread may be a bit out of date, but is still informative.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1428022
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1410115
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Old 03-06-2018, 5:42 PM
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How does this affect ammo for ammo TRADES.
I want to offer some ammo for trade only.
Do I still need to go through the same process as if the ammo was being sold?
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Old 03-06-2018, 7:01 PM
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How does this affect ammo for ammo TRADES.
I want to offer some ammo for trade only.
Do I still need to go through the same process as if the ammo was being sold?
All transfers
The law does not specify "sales"
Same as firearms
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Old 05-11-2018, 1:53 PM
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OK, I read thru the above posts and Googled the issue(s). Ive contacted 3 local FFLs and received this: 1. We will charge $2.00/box and a 20% total value fee, 2. We don't do ammo transfers, 3. According to the regulations, you can give the ammo to a relative, friend, shooting buddy without going thru an FFL.

I have ~2k rounds of 45 I want to get rid of before I move out of state - and honestly need advice. Thanks in advance for the help.
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Old 05-19-2019, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Behindyou View Post
OK, I read thru the above posts and Googled the issue(s). Ive contacted 3 local FFLs and received this: 1. We will charge $2.00/box and a 20% total value fee, 2. We don't do ammo transfers, 3. According to the regulations, you can give the ammo to a relative, friend, shooting buddy without going thru an FFL.



I have ~2k rounds of 45 I want to get rid of before I move out of state - and honestly need advice. Thanks in advance for the help.
I'm an FFL Gunsmith with COE and can accept out of state prepaid ammunition. My charge until 30 June 2019 will be a flat fee according to amount. IE: 100 to 500 rnds at $5.00. After 30 June I won't accept anymore transfers. Cherokee Gunsmith

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Old 05-19-2019, 3:28 PM
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I'm an FFL Gunsmith with COE and can accept out of state prepaid ammunition. My charge until 30 June 2019 will be a flat fee according to amount. IE: 100 to 500 rnds at $5.00. After 30 June I won't accept anymore transfers. Cherokee Gunsmith

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Oh yes I'm interested in your ammo too.

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Old 05-19-2019, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behindyou View Post
OK, I read thru the above posts and Googled the issue(s). Ive contacted 3 local FFLs and received this: 1. We will charge $2.00/box and a 20% total value fee, 2. We don't do ammo transfers, 3. According to the regulations, you can give the ammo to a relative, friend, shooting buddy without going thru an FFL.



I have ~2k rounds of 45 I want to get rid of before I move out of state - and honestly need advice. Thanks in advance for the help.
Definitely interested in your ammo. I have a COE and can accept ammo orders.

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