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  #1  
Old 04-18-2020, 6:55 AM
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Default Birth certificate??

So my FFL informed me I need to provide a birth certificate now to pick up my hand gun. This was a PPT in butte county. Anybody know more details here? I purchased in same county in February at a larger store and this was not required. I applied for a re-issue of my BC but who knows how long that will take...concerned my time for pickup will expire before I get the documents.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 04-18-2020, 7:16 AM
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I've never been asked for a BC, kinda weird.


Did you have a REAL ID?
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  #3  
Old 04-18-2020, 7:21 AM
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If your ID has “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY” then you need birth certificate or current passport.


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  #4  
Old 04-18-2020, 7:24 AM
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My DL is not a real ID. It expires in 2021 and there is no language about federal limits.
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Old 04-18-2020, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghouse View Post
My DL is not a real ID. It expires in 2021 and there is no language about federal limits.
So it sounds like the FFL is a bonehead. Because your old school DL is still perfectly fine for buying guns in CA. No birth certificate required.

The problem now is you likely can't change their minds. What is unbelievable is they didn't tell you this before you started paperwork, giving you the option to defer or decline the transfer.

Never use bonehead FFLs.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 04-18-2020 at 2:23 PM..
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  #6  
Old 04-18-2020, 9:48 AM
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What FFL?
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2020, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
So it sounds like the FFL is mis-informed. Because your old school DL is still perfectly fine for buying guns in CA. No birth certificate required.

The problem now is you likely can't change their minds. What is unbelievable is they didn't tell you this before you started paperwork, giving you the option to defer or decline the transfer.

Never use mis-informed FFLs.
So, it appears this FFL is in a rural location where support and knowledge without following pages like calguns is almost zero other than the bulletins put out by DOJ. I'm not excusing his lack of knowledge because we are supposed to know but you don't need to go all half cocked on a person you don't know.

It would be nice in times like this to be a little civil.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:37 AM
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Ya it was rough that he slipped this in after paperwork was finished. I guess I’ll have to do some research and find some documentation so I can argue my case with him and/or ask him to provide me with the laws he’s referencing. The FFL is reliable and has great service.

Last edited by rghouse; 04-18-2020 at 6:52 PM.. Reason: Remove FFL’s name
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2020, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
So, it appears this FFL is in a rural location where support and knowledge without following pages like calguns is almost zero other than the bulletins put out by DOJ. I'm not excusing his lack of knowledge because we are supposed to know but you don't need to go all half cocked on a person you don't know.

It would be nice in times like this to be a little civil.
'Misinformed' would have been a perfectly reasonable description had the FFL notified OP of this before starting paperwork. But considering the FFL sprung this on the buyer *after* the paperwork was done, perhaps even substantially later, I feel my original assessment is 100% warranted. I would however concede that bonehead would have been a more civil substitute and I have edited my post.

Because OP could like me have been born in another state, and now in the middle of a nationwide Covid shutdown, this FFL expects OP to come up with a birth certificate from a government agency, in less than 30 days - for a policy of his own making that has no basis in law or even DOJ procedure.

Because if it does go past 30 days, now what - another $47 DROS and the seller gets to come back too? Queue the Benny Hill theme song
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2020, 1:05 PM
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went in yesterday to state my case and was informed he was audited by DOJ and claims "all FFLS are going to have to follow these rules" and "Others are wrong". Meanwhile my Birth certificate will not be shipped for another month.

seems wrong...

Can anyone else shed some light on this one?
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2020, 1:14 PM
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FFL is wrong and a screwup.
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  #12  
Old 04-28-2020, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghouse View Post
went in yesterday to state my case and was informed he was audited by DOJ and claims "all FFLS are going to have to follow these rules" and "Others are wrong". Meanwhile my Birth certificate will not be shipped for another month.

seems wrong...

Can anyone else shed some light on this one?
The FFL is obviously ignorant of actual ID requirements. And was either misinformed by DOJ or lied to. Either are likely possible.

Or, he conflated the caution regarding FLA CDLs, with older and perfectly acceptable Non FLA type.

I suggest you read this thread from Dec 2019, all the relevant Laws and Regs are covered therein.

Copy and Print post #3, and use it to "enlighten" the FFL. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=FLA


Quote:
Applicable CA laws/regulations...

Penal Code 27540
A dealer, whether or not acting pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050), shall not deliver a firearm to a person, as follows:
(c) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents clear evidence of the person’s identity and age to the dealer.

Penal Code 16400
As used in this part, “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age” means either of the following:
(a) A valid California driver’s license.
(b) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.


California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 4 Article 2 Section 4045.1
Additional Documentation Requirements for Eligibility Checks with Federal Non-Compliant California Driver License or Identification Card.
This section applies to all firearms and ammunition eligibility checks, including any eligibility check described in Division 5. For the purposes of this section, “eligibility checks” refers to background checks based on any application or report for which an applicant is required to submit a driver license or identification card, or the number from a driver license or identification card, so that the Department of Justice may determine the applicant's eligibility to possess a firearm or ammunition under state or federal law.
(a) For all eligibility checks, a copy of the applicant's California driver license or identification card, or out-of-state driver license, if applicable, shall be submitted, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g).
(b) For all eligibility checks, if the applicant presents a federal non-compliant California driver license or identification card with the notation “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY” on the front, the applicant shall also submit proof of lawful presence in the United States, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g), in the form of one of the following documents:
(1) Valid, unexpired U.S. passport or passport card.
(2) Certified copy of U.S. birth certificate.
(3) Certification of Birth Abroad (FS-545), Certification of Report of Birth (DS-1350) or Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (FS-240), issued by the U.S. Department of State.
(4) Valid, unexpired foreign passport with valid U.S. immigrant visa and approved Record of Arrival/Departure (I-94) form.
(5) Certified copy of birth certificate from a U.S. Territory.
(6) Certificate of Naturalization or U.S. Citizenship.
(7) Valid, unexpired Permanent Resident Card.
(c) For all eligibility checks, if the applicant's name as it appears on the federal non-compliant California driver license or identification card differs from the name on the proof of lawful presence document submitted in accordance with subdivision (b), the applicant shall also submit, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g), one of the following certified documents:
(1) An adoption document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the adoption.
(2) A name change document that contains the applicant's legal name both before and, as a result of, the name change.
(3) A marriage certificate.
(4) A dissolution of marriage document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the court action.
(5) A certificate, declaration or registration document verifying the formation of a domestic partnership.
(6) A dissolution of domestic partnership document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the court action.

Last edited by pacrat; 04-28-2020 at 2:03 PM..
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2020, 2:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghouse View Post
went in yesterday to state my case and was informed he was audited by DOJ and claims "all FFLS are going to have to follow these rules" and "Others are wrong". Meanwhile my Birth certificate will not be shipped for another month.

seems wrong...

Can anyone else shed some light on this one?
I have the same auditor he has and that information was never passed on the at the conclusion of an audit...
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  #14  
Old 04-28-2020, 3:33 PM
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Thank you for forwarding that guys. Maybe he’ll accept my marriage certificate (3), lol.
Let you know how the next showdown goes. Hard to walk into a gun shop and tell a guy how to conduct business
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Old 04-28-2020, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rghouse View Post
Thank you for forwarding that guys. Maybe he’ll accept my marriage certificate (3), lol.
Let you know how the next showdown goes. Hard to walk into a gun shop and tell a guy how to conduct business
Marriage license only applies if your name on the birth certificate does not match your name on DL. This normally applies to ladies. And you would still need the birth certificate or similar. Of course you don't need any of that because your DL does not say federal limits apply.
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  #16  
Old 04-28-2020, 4:43 PM
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Name of FFL please.
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2020, 6:32 PM
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Durham Guns
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2020, 7:11 AM
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Do you perhaps look much younger than you really are??
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2020, 4:41 PM
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no, it’s an issue on his end
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Old 05-02-2020, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
I have the same auditor he has and that information was never passed on the at the conclusion of an audit...
^^^ Same

Attached is the DES (DROS Entry System) Bulletin from July '19. May help clarify. The additional documentation requirement, as stated, is only necessary If the applicant presents a California driver license or identification card with the notation “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY”

Last edited by LJ Guns; 05-02-2020 at 9:17 AM.. Reason: spelling
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2020, 9:18 AM
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^^thanks LJ Guns. No such limitations are stated on my license.
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Old 05-02-2020, 9:32 AM
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Np. Print that out and present it to your FFL, assuming he still has your firearm "in jail".

Some of our many laws/regulations are difficult to interpret. Others, like this one, are VERY simple black and white (regardless of what "they were told" or "heard somewhere").
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Old 05-02-2020, 9:51 AM
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He’s not going to release it. I guess he has his own rules. Lost my business. Not sure if I have any recourse here but I’ll just have to wait and pay, unless there is a violation of some kind.
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Old 05-02-2020, 10:08 AM
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Sad to hear. Unfortunately there is no cure for stupid. You could always attempt to email DOJ, attach a copy of your license, summarize the situation, and see if you can get a reply specifically stating you are NOT required to provide the additional documentation. I realize that is a stretch. Worth a shot though. GL.
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Old 05-02-2020, 10:13 AM
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Seriously, it's always a good idea to keep documents like your birth certificate, passport, etc., etc. organized and easily at hand. I misplaced my DD214 and it was kind of a pain to retrieve it. Lesson learned.
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Old 05-02-2020, 10:29 AM
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Birth certificate was stolen, passport is expired. Bought 4 handguns without a hitch with my ccw and drivers license until now. The sheriff trusts me, so that’s a plus
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Old 05-02-2020, 1:57 PM
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So, just for the hey if I called Durham Guns & Ammo and asked what I needed to bring in the way of documentation to buy a handgun. " D/L (Real ID) Hunt Lic., HSC, Utility bill Veh. Reg." I asked if I needed a B. Cert. or Passport. Replied, "NO".

Not sure we got the whole story on this thing...
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So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State.
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Old 05-02-2020, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
So, just for the hey if I called Durham Guns & Ammo and asked what I needed to bring in the way of documentation to buy a handgun. " D/L (Real ID) Hunt Lic., HSC, Utility bill Veh. Reg." I asked if I needed a B. Cert. or Passport. Replied, "NO".

Not sure we got the whole story on this thing...
So did they tell you that you needed REAL ID D/L? Because that is not true, and that is the whole problem for OP. Call back and specifically tell them you do not have REAL ID, then see what happens.
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Old 05-02-2020, 3:49 PM
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^^^ya. Your post did not specify what license you told them you have. Thanks for calling though. Trust me, I’m being honest.
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Old 05-02-2020, 5:39 PM
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Another clueless gun store denizen, how unusual.
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Old 05-02-2020, 5:51 PM
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This is interesting.
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
So did they tell you that you needed REAL ID D/L? Because that is not true, and that is the whole problem for OP. Call back and specifically tell them you do not have REAL ID, then see what happens.
Old regular I/D is good to go..
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:29 PM
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Another clueless gun store denizen, how unusual.
Geese, maybe with all your vast knowledge you should go into business and you can educate us.
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So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State.
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LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2020, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
Geese, maybe with all your vast knowledge you should go into business and you can educate us.
Yep! Another “ I heard it from a poster on Calguns so it must be true”

Not knocking Calguns! It’s a great reference IF you know who is giving you the information.
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Old 05-03-2020, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Yep! Another “ I heard it from a poster on Calguns so it must be true”

Not knocking Calguns! It’s a great reference IF you know who is giving you the information.

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So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State.
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LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2020, 1:59 PM
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Old regular I/D is good to go..
Yes, that is consensus here. Did you call the shop again?
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  #37  
Old 05-04-2020, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
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Yes, that is consensus here. Did you call the shop again?
Yes
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So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State.
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LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2020, 10:03 AM
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So to be clear Tyke8319, you called Durham Guns and they informed you that it is ok to buy a firearm and release it with the old ID? I dont think you spoke with the owner then.



you need me to attach a photo of my license for ya? No federal limits.
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Old 05-04-2020, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghouse View Post
So to be clear Tyke8319, you called Durham Guns and they informed you that it is ok to buy a firearm and release it with the old ID? I dont think you spoke with the owner then.



you need me to attach a photo of my license for ya? No federal limits.
I have no idea who I spoke to. Didn't ask. I asked if my original Calif Drivers License was OK. Whoever I spoke to said "yes". That's all I can tell you. maybe different people are telling different information. Perhaps you should try calling them and making an anonymous inquiry,
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So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State.
Judge Roger T. Benitez
LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019
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Old 05-04-2020, 11:12 AM
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I just contacted the owner. DOJ made him sign something stating he understands the rules changed as of January 1, 2020. His hands are tied. FYI to FFLs I guess, rules are changing
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