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Women pastors
Does God allow women to be pastors? Our church has an ordained woman pastor who's in charge of overseas missions. She preaches in front of the congregation 2-3 times a year. It doesn't bother me since she's not a
Senior pastor nor am I bothered by a woman pastor over the youth group. But when I see women TV evangelists, it rubs me the wrong way. But when I hear testimonials or seminars taught by women, doesn't bother me at all. According to (1 Tim. 2:12) "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." Yet I don't see this being applied today. Is this just a cultural thing or for that time specifically? Let's discuss. |
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What about teaching men during bible-based seminars? |
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1 Corinthians 14:34,35 Quote:
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Pretty hard to argue./thread also, that said, I've learned a lot about scriptures from Women at home, or their homes. Some of them know their book better than a lot of Brothers.
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Last edited by Red-Osier; 02-24-2019 at 2:07 PM.. |
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Regarding women TV evangelists, # 1 post, Paula White is such a person and she lends heavy ( non $$ ) support to our current Prez, Mr Trump, prayed at his inaugural, the lady in the red dress. I an thankful and glad that she has supported him for some years and especially now. Take this for whatever you think about it.
As for women pastors, that is another matter, have met several in my time on earth, 75 yrs and have seen good and not so good results. Women pastors are not always women teaching men and women in church. Psalm 1 |
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Curious to hear it though. |
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Last edited by Red-Osier; 02-25-2019 at 3:47 AM.. |
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Me too. I recall a bible study done by a pastor's wife 20 years ago on 2 Peter 1:5-8.
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God, through His word, established important responsibilities to the church for both men and women. They aren’t completely the same responsibilities, but are equally important.
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Mark 16:16 |
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"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18) Your wife cover her head when she prays? "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head..." 1 Corinthians 11:5 Carry a CCW? Ever been assaulted, sued, forced into labor, hit on by a bum, asked to loan money? But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.” (Matthew 5:38-42)
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"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness; I love only that which they defend. victus exaro somniculosus, somnus exaro ieiunium |
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God doesn't see the outside of the human, just the heart. I am such a worm that for me to say who can speak of God becomes foolishness. Paul and Timothy were humans, with fault, who wrote regarding the culture of their day in relation to women. Guess what, they may have been wrong. They were not God but spoke as humans beholding God with their own weaknesses and prejudices. Remember....Paul told us he had to die to self daily....meaning every moment he was tempted, took his eyes off of God and had to keep coming back for forgiveness/grace as he grew in trusting God. Don't worry about rules or what seems good in our human eyes, rather bow before God and shudder as to how far our hearts fall short of His character. |
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Remember, God divorced His own people. Jer.3:8. Last edited by Sailormilan2; 02-24-2019 at 5:08 PM.. |
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As with all scripture, this must be viewed with the proper context. Not just scriptural context, but also cultural and historic context.
The first thing to remember is that Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee. That means that he viewed the world from a Hebrew perspective that doesn't come naturally to most western readers. It also means that he was fully invested not only in the written Torah, but also the Talmudic interpretation of the Torah, which at this time had already decreed that men and women were to be separate during religious services, that women couldn't be teachers, and that they were below men in several important ways. This was, I believe, a gross misinterpretation of the relevant passages in the Torah. The next important contextual consideration is the audience that he is writing to. While Paul is writing to Timothy, he is doing so in order to give instruction through Timothy to the Ephesians. This means that Paul was dealing with an entirely different set of cultural norms than he was used to. In the Mediterranean cultures of the time, it wasn't unusual for a woman who was more knowledgeable on a subject to instruct a man who was less knowledgeable. But because of his background as a Pharisee, this likely rankled Paul to some greater or lesser extent. But while all of this offers context, it doesn't really answer the question. There are really only two factors that I feel need to be considered in answering this. The first is what Paul writes at the beginning of his instructions, in 1 Timothy 2:8, "Therefore, it is my wish that..." Paul never shied away from saying when something was explicitly the will of God, but what he's doing here is explicitly stating that this is his will, and nothing more. The second factor is God Himself. What do we know about Him? About His nature and His actions? God is a god of justice and equality, He is no respecter of persons, and He judges a person by their heart. Does that sound like a God that would place one person beneath another purely because of their sex? Didn't God raise up strong and godly women to powerful positions all throughout scripture? Didn't He Himself put Deborah in place as a prophet and as Judge over all of Israel? In short, I think that the belief that God prohibits women as teachers or pastors is a somewhat knee-jerk response to the scripture without considering the other factors inherent to the scripture itself. |
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Some years ago I read an opinion piece about women as leaders in the church. The author's opinion was that letting women into the church as leaders and preachers would lead to other problems. Primarily acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual marriage in the church.
The author's rational was that this would be brought about due to the typical woman thing of "can't we all just get along", "God is love, and loves all, so they should be included". I am not saying the author was correct. But, just some food for thought. |
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No.
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Clearly, you don't get out much. http://lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099
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Did Paul allow it? Not likely. But he wasn't in charge of the church either. He gets a lot of credit and more than his fair share of "air time" in the Christian Bible. But he wasn't part of the core 12 at any point. He was an outsider with very different perspectives. Arguably, the original disciples were the ones responsible for getting Paul arrested & imprisoned. So we should take his points of view with a grain of salt. He may have been a minority opinion -- one to consider but hardly the gospel of Jesus himself. That being said, Paul calls Phoebe a deacon. Women certainly served as deacons in the early church. Paul is not without a few contradictions -- as are all of us. Did the Torah permit women to lead? Not usually. They were highly patriarchal -- much more than even other Semitic cultures. At least other Semites had female deities, consorts, etc. YHWH was a highly patriarchal dude -- strangely so. Did Jesus allow it? Not really. But he certainly gave women more influence than his predecessors did. Mary Magdalene may have been more important than most of the 12. But she would have likely been pushed out after Jesus's death. There's no indication that she wanted power or tried to fight for prominence. The early church had enough trouble fighting for credibility & staving off persecution. I doubt they would have made feminism their hill to die on, assuming they were for equality at all. There's a great book, THE MORAL VISION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that anybody who cares about ethical issues needs to read. While there may not be an explicit, "Let women rule!" commandment in the NT, there's plenty of hints that it's a good idea -- behavioral norms of Jesus, things he has said that would lead us to that conclusion, etc. And if, like me, you're more pagan than Christian, then this is a no-brainer. Disallowing half the population from leadership in the community on the basis of genitalia alone is pretty stupid in my opinion. I hate to say it but any culture that can't change with the times is dead or dying. I love the past and very reverent of tradition. Yet, I know that anything that lives and thrives, whether that be individuals or communities, adapts to its environment. Resisting change just means you're on your way out. Locking ourselves into rigid ideals may be rationally consistent. But today is for the living, not the dead. |
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Bingo on Women Preachers! The Elephant in the Room (Dalrock)
"There is a well loved refrain, especially among complementarians, that men need to “step up”. This is a deceptive phrase, because in reality the objective is to allow men to avoid what is difficult and uncomfortable. It is false bravado used to mask paralyzing fear. What is being avoided is addressing the feminist elephant in the middle of the room.
For example, over the past decades we have witnessed an explosion in out of wedlock births. Feminists have been entirely open about their desire to make single motherhood an attractive option for women, and after decades of social and legal “progress” 40% of all children are now born out of wedlock in the US. For feminist Christians this isn’t a problem, as they can simply celebrate their victory while pushing for even more “progress”. But for complementarians and other conservative Christians, this poses a huge challenge. How can they appear to take biblical morality (and the welfare of innocent children) seriously while avoiding upsetting women in our thoroughly feminized culture? There is only one answer, no matter how absurd it is. The answer is to pretend that feminists aren’t really in the final mopping up stages in the culture war, and assert instead that what we are experiencing is a sudden and mysterious change in men. Here is how Glenn Stanton, the Director of Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family (FotF), explains the incredible increase we are seeing in out of wedlock births*: Women want to marry and have daddies for their babies. But if they can’t find good men to commit themselves to, well… Our most pressing social problem today is a man deficit." The level of denial here is astonishing, and would be laughable if it weren’t entirely commonplace. Even more astounding, often times the denial of feminism is expressed using feminist terminology, and even includes calls to join feminists in their push to re order our society** . . . As astonishing as the above two examples are, they merely scratch the surface. The pattern exists across complementarian/conservative Christian organizations, and across the full spectrum of issues where a Christian approach would offend feminists. In response to women demanding to be allowed to join all units of our armed forces (just as they have demanded in the civilian world), conservative Christians deny the very open feminist rebellion, and pretend instead that cowardly men are forcing brave women to serve in their place. Doug Phillips’ now defunct Vision Forum offers a perfect example with America the Barbarous: New Pentagon Policy Sanctions Women in Combat . . . " Full article: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/0...ave-to-part-1/ Quote:
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That passage is in the context of prophecy and tongues. The speaking has to do with leading worship and these gifts.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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To OP - per your original question - no, women are not allowed to be "pastors."
The relevant passages are in 1 Tim. 2 and 3: First, 1 Ti2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. Notice the key is "over a man." And, the argument is not cultural for that time but goes all the way back to the fall. So, women can teach women and can teach children. The tough application is at what point do you stop them from teaching young men. *Most* (not all) stop having women Sunday School teachers after elementary school age. Each church has to decide how to apply this. Notice 1 Tim 3, also: 1 Ti3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. You can also see some parallels in Titus 1. But, notice that Paul is very careful to specify male roles with masculine nouns and pronouns. But, notice in V.11 that women can be deacons. So, when you put 1 Tim. 2:11-15 together with 1 Tim 3, it is clear that there are different roles for men and women with Paul setting the context of 1 Tim. 3 by first covering women's roles 1 Tim. 2:11-15. Before anyone starts attacking these passages, remember that the Trinity has roles - different responsibilities and submission within the Godhead! Christ had no problem repeatedly stating that He was sent by the Father and only did the Father's will.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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OP - CCWs are just fine per the Bible. We are told to submit to government and told that God has given the power of the sword (power of death) to government (Romans 13:1-5).
Ro13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. Per the passage, the primary purpose of government is our protection. Notice "wrath" in v.4. Not the first reference in Romans. Ro1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, "is revealed" is present tense. God's wrath is presently and continually (the core meaning of the Greek present tense) being carried out in the world today against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. In other words, God judges sin directly in our world today. One of those ways is through government - the power of the sword. So, what's a CCW? It's government passing a law to extend its power of the sword to the citizens to increase its ability to protect people. By the way, should a wife stay in a house where the husband beats her? No. Our government has laws to protect anyone from violence and we are to use them for our protection. The context of Matthew 5:38-40 is not about self-protection as provided by God through our laws.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther Last edited by billvau; 02-25-2019 at 11:15 AM.. |
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Just when I feel the need to sit down and spend a half hour writing a thorough response, Bill comes in and does it for me. Thanks bill
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Mark 16:16 |
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No offense Bill
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Last edited by Red-Osier; 02-25-2019 at 10:09 AM.. |
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All that to say that aspiring to an ideal, like a two-parent household, is noble. But if it keeps you from dealing with the reality that's right in front of you, then the rigid ideal causes more harm than help. I'm no Marine. But the phrase, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" seems like good advice for life. Women doing that in their families are more saintly to me than rigid fanatics (like Paul) and their advice for others with no skin in the game. We make our plans for life. Then we adapt them because life doesn't care about our plans. Putting a more Biblical spin on things, if we were supposed to conform to rigid ideals, then Jesus was a total screw up. He broke so many rules that the pastors of his day (Rabbis & Priests) wanted him dead for fear that he would upset things too much. Oh, I'm sure they cited chapter and verse. But Jesus didn't care about chapter and verse so much as abiding by the central values that inspired those very verses to be written in the first place. The Christian Church and its norms have undoubtedly changed over time -- to its credit. What started out as some obscure rebellious Jewish sect morphed into a global religion that looks nothing like itself in original form. It must continue to change or it will die. That's life. |
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Feminist excuses . . .
Your remarks smack of those of Pastor Chandler,
Pastor Chandler, President of the complementarian Acts 29 Network of churches, takes it a step further and offers a blanket statement on all possible areas a wife might be tempted into feminist rebellion. If a wife ever feels the temptation of feminist rebellion, it means her husband is oppressing her: Really, men, here is a great way to gauge how you’re serving, loving, and practicing your headship. If the most secularized feminist in the world showed up in your home and began to kind of coach your wife toward freedom and liberation from your tyranny, our wives should be so well cared for, so nourished, so sowed into and loved, they would say, “What you’re describing is actually tyranny. I love where I am. I am honored. I am encouraged. My man sacrifices so that I might grow in my gifts. He will oftentimes lay down his own desires in order to serve me more. My husband goes to bed tired at night. He pours in to our children. He encourages me. All that comes out of his mouth, sans a couple of little times here and there, is him building me up in love.” Men, here is a good opportunity. If you’re like, “Well, gosh, I don’t think she would say that at all,” then, men, I think on the way home, you should probably repent and confess before the Lord to your wife. More drivel like this, While very few women in conservative Christian circles want to dress as men and serve in combat, nearly all of them have married or hope to marry. Not surprisingly, the same ridiculous gymnastics are used to deny the much more proximate mass rebellion against the biblical instruction to wives. If a wife is frigid and defrauds her husband, it is not a sin but a sign that God is angry with the husband (Pastor Dave Wilson, and Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr.). If a wife throws a tantrum in order to get her way, it is not rebellion but a form of submission called a Godly tantrum (Pastor Tim Keller, co-founder and vice president of The Gospel Coalition). If a wife is contentious, it is proof that her husband is not communicating enough (Dr. Clarke & FotF president Jim Daly) or loving her enough (Pastor Strauss). If a wife fornicated before marriage, it is her husband’s fault (Dr. Russell Moore). https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/0...ave-to-part-1/ What guy in his right mind would sit in the church and listen to these Manginas blame him for everything . . . Many wives seek to divorcerape their husbank$ then go back on the cock carousel. I suppose this is your definition of happy (ex) wives . . . they have plundered their husbanks via alimony and child support and would be unhappy if forced to be responsible and stay in the marriage and not throw their husbanks to the divorce lawyers. They get the gold, the husbank gets the shaft, and you approve of this! Quote:
Last edited by CPRAFAN; 02-26-2019 at 11:01 PM.. |
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Just love when I see fellow brothers speaking GOD’S word these are healthy learning threads at times not all agree but one thing is for sure as people pointed out GOD’S word is always true from start to finish just got to ask his spirit to reveal his truths.
AMEN brothers stay in his word and spirit and we will never be lead astray like sheep to the slaughter. |
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But, addressing your point, Jesus indeed broke many of "Gods" laws. Not working on the Sabbath is still a Jewish custom that is a pretty cut and dry rule in Leviticus, not starting somewhere in the Talmud, Midrash or Mishna. Jesus challenged that by encouraging folks to honor the spirit of the law, not the letter. Further, he didn't think it was necessary to be stupid about it by, as in his example, failing to pull your own ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath because the law tells you not to do any work. Add to that his associations, many of which broke purity laws, and you have a guy who gained a reputation for breaking a lot of "God's" rules. Notice that he didn't tell anybody that the rules no longer apply or that he was declaring all Levitical codes null and void from then on (that would have gotten him killed a lot faster for blasphemy). He simply told people to use good judgment. I'll simply echo that encouragement. Back to the original topic of the thread, yes, the Bible states pretty clearly that women needed (back then) to let men lead. Hard-core feminists certainly overstep if they want to find modern feminism in the Bible -- it just ain't there. But there are also values that make feminism a viable part of the Church's development, too. It may be a bad idea to have women leaders in hyper-conservative places. But if you're going to any major city in the developed world, you may as well get used to the idea. |
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Yea, you're right. People go to church to hear things that they already agree with. I forget that sometimes. Many wives, huh? Know any? Seems like an opportunity in my book. |
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Ever read how Jesus kept the Law? Fulfilled the Law? Satisfied the laws demands for us? Did you know that Jesus led a perfect, sinless life? Did you know that that sinless life only qualified Him to die for our sins? Did you know that God wouldn't have resurrected Him from the dead had He not led that sinless life? How can you blaspheme God by saying that Jesus was a total screw-up for conforming to His own Law? That He broke so many rules? Did you know that Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law? So, He cared more about every chapter and verse than any person that's ever lived? Like I said, All that you wrote is your personal opinion and certainly not biblical.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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Agreed. I was responding to a post that said otherwise!
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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The most intolerant wins, I guess. |
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