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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more. |
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Case forming questions
I have a bunch of 22-250 cases that I've been using for quite some time. After annealing, the cases do not feed well, it's a Rem 700 varmint. New cases feed fine.
Prior to this I was just neck sizing and they worked great, they probably have about 6-8 firings on them. Now, having been annealed, even after full length resizing using either a Forster comp FL die or a Redding FL die they still don't fit well and take some effort to work the bolt. Will these fire form back to the chamber or are these cases toast? I don't need a stuck bolt. Here's a pic of the cases after FL sizing. The ring is the only contact on the case. I used some layout fluid and this is the only place where it's making contact. |
#2
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Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.
jmho... |
#3
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Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
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Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#4
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Oh the case fits and looks good in a go/no go gauge. |
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that's why FL resizing is the only way to go. At some point with neck sizing, you will need to FL size.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ Last edited by bsumoba; 11-14-2019 at 8:20 PM.. |
#8
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^^^OK. I think the message in your vid is "Full Length Resize-always."
But several comments in the vid lead me to a question. Are all these elite marksmen using custom machined dies to get that .002" clearance many of them mentioned? Seems that the SAAMI tolerances on case and chamber would make that .002" a difficult relation to achieve with commercially sold rifles and dies-unless you got lucky or handpicked each unit to match. |
#9
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The reason for FL resizing is two fold: * It provides clearance in the chamber to allow for the brass case to expand and therefore, contract, making it easier to eject the case. * When sizing a case in a FL die, the case will be sized the same way every time. This is as consistent as you can get. When neck sizing, you assume the case expands and contracts consistently every time. This assumption is debunked because one typically has to FL size a case at some point because the case itself will not fit in the chamber or the case gets harder and harder to extract or close the bolt on.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#10
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So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.
Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up😨. |
#11
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Put a flashlight behind the ram facing towards you. Place a case in the shellholder and run it all the way up. Look between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
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The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#13
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The shell holder was empty and made what I thought to be good contact with the die. However after extending the die a little bit more and requiring a bit more force to cam over it successfully resize the case.
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#14
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That gap is what made it possible to size the case MORE by screwing the die down more.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
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Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620". The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630". Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance. If I'm using a commercial die made to SAAMI specs with a rifle chamber reamed ro SAAMI specs, how do I close that clearance of .010" down to your stated clearance of .002"? |
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__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#18
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Lou Murdica isn't using Whidden dies and his benchrest brass is tighter fitting than any F-Class shooters brass on the entire video. He says in the video for this type of shooting/reloading for a reason.
And saying that brass is consistent because it fits the chamber each time after full length sizing is truly brilliant. Once you have clearance no matter how much or how inconsistent it fits.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#19
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I am not a member of the claims department; but I do know something about case artifacts. I have blank cases that have been opened up to 35 Whelen. I have never sild any of the cases to unsuspecting purchasers but I did notice blank cases being offered for sale on Ebay that were formed from blank 30/06 cases. I could tell from the artifacts in the case. And then there are those in the claims department that insist they can bump and or move the shoulder back; same thing, artifacts of the old case before sizing should indicate to the reloader it is impossible to move the shoulder back. It is possible to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but it is imposable to move the shoulder back when doing it. There should be a reloader on this forum that can explain how he moves the shoulder back; he could even include a the method he uses to 'bump' the shoulder back. Me? I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back and then there are all of those that claim they have bump dies. The full length sizing die has case body support; that means nothing to a member of the claims department but the fact the die has full case body support makes bumping and or moving the shoulder back impossible. And then there is 'on the one hand' and there is 'on the other hand'. In one hand the reloader has a full length sizing die and in the other a seating die. In one hand he has a full length sizing die that will not allow the shoulder to be moved back; in the other hand he has a seating die that will allow the reloader to move the shoulder back because it does not have case body support. F, Guffey |
#21
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Sofbak
Ignore Guffey he knows nothing about the terminology used in today's reloading circles. He is trying to let you know that as the shoulder gets moved the brass itself hasn't changed its location but a new shoulder has been formed and it could have most of the old shoulder still contained within it. So if your shoulder sits 2 inches from the casehead and you move it to 1.5 inches from the casehead you have replaced one shoulder with another shoulder but you haven't moved the original brass you just turned it into the neck. It is commonly called being a semantics *****. For the average tactical or F-Class shooter full length sizing will allow the brass to chamber easily and they are not after gilt edge accuracy so it works for what they need. On a bench only gun group size determines the winner not your score so full length sizing means the die matches the chamber as closely as humanly possible and a single die starts at over $400 and some will exceed twice that. You need to stick with one reamer and one gunsmith so you don't overwork your brass. The video shows F-Class shooters one current benchrest shooter and one past benchrest shooter. The current benchrest shooter says in the video for this type of shooting you can full length size. He was talking about F-class not benchrest. Just trying to clarify.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 11-14-2019 at 4:13 PM.. |
#23
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Exactly. Those dies are bought in 0.0005 increments or half a thousandth.
Jerry Tierney a F-Class shooter on par with Larry Bartholome in the video cleaned his guns every 2nd or 3rd match something you will never see at a benchrest match.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#24
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A lot of things have changed and the greatest changes to the reloading and equipment have occurred while you have been out of the game.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ Last edited by bsumoba; 11-14-2019 at 8:20 PM.. |
#25
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Actually nothing has changed much at all but you need more reloading experience to fully realize that. In the video several if them say for this game which is F-class. Have you ever shot Benchrest and how did you place?
Full length sizing in Benchrest is not the same as full length sizing in F-Class/Tactical. The brass fit in Benchrest is much tighter. And the pressure he is talking about comes from the constriction and is minimal at best. Today's F-Class/Tactical shooters have better dies available to them like those from Warner Tool so when you combine better brass control with new annealers that actually work consistently you get better results. The smallest group ever fired is still 20+ times smaller than anything most will ever see and the brass had 8 firings with neck sized brass. When you start using tuners you will be up to 2005.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 11-22-2019 at 8:47 PM.. |
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I tell you it is impossible to move the shoulder back, I tell you it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I tell you 'bump' is a function of the press, I tell you the picture in post one proves it. And? You got nothing, All I expect from anyone is an explanation' one that explains how a reloader can move the shoulder back, and then there are all the others that think they are reloaders because they start a sentence with "I bump" and I ask "How do you do that"? All I get back are responses from reloaders that act like they are in elementary class, How is it possible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full body support. I started by trying to move the shoulder back, it I had managed to move the shoulder back with a full case body support die the volume of the case would have been reduced; It is impossible to move the shoulder back, the shoulder the reloaders starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with. F. Guffey |
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Back to the 'righty' or 'lefty' chicken; the artifact proves the shoulder the OP started with is not the same shoulder he finished with. F. Guffey |
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__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
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#30
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I can shorten the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head; I have never been able to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head by moving the shoulder back; it is impossible to move the shoulder of a case back. It is impossible to move the shoulder back without bulging the case at the shoulder/case body juncture "because the case is not allowed to bulge because the full length sizer die has full case body support. F. Guffey |
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Never return fire! 2e 32 32 20 2e 33 38 30 20 2e 33 38 20 39 6d 6d 20 2e 34 34 20 2e 35 30 41 45 20 2e 32 32 33 20 35 2e 35 36 20 33 30 2d 33 30 20 2e 33 30 38 20 2e 35 30 44 54 43 20 32 32 2d 32 35 30 20 33 37 4d 4d 20 2e 34 35 41 43 50 Last edited by Butthead; 11-23-2019 at 12:02 PM.. |
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I've never seen anyone use so many words just to say "brass flows" (toward the scrap end).
But then most actually try to educate/communicate vs. pontificate.
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#35
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Lil Frank Guffey is hooked on semantics and doesn't know modern terminology. When you push on the shoulder with your die the original shoulder moves into the neck making the case longer. After firing the extra length moves rearward back into the body of the case as it expands to fill all the voided area from the sizing operation. If you regularly push the shoulder back to far it will lead to a casehead separation as upon ignition the expanding gases will push the unburned powder into the shoulder stretching the case right in front of the casehead. After repeated firings that thinking will eventually cause a failure. In the old days before Lil Frank was posting his nonsense wildcatters used straightwalled cases and put the shoulder anywhere the wanted it. Basic brass and even brass without flasholes or primer pockets was commonplace. Fast forward to the internet days of reloading and we have posters no longer able to do what was once called routine loading practices. Neck sizing is now so difficult that the millennials can no longer do it without locking up there bolts. The reloading hasn't improved it has regressed. Ask Lil Frank if he can make the brass in the picture and also ask him how it has 2 shoulders instead of just one. Ask him if brass moves forward or just laterally when fired and if he says it only moves laterally why? If he correctly says it moves in all directions ask him how are we able to size it back to it's original size so it fits the chamber? If the shoulder can't be moved you can't size the brass. We would shoot it until it gets tight in the chamber and toss it in the scrap bin. We don't do that because we are able to move/bump the shoulder something Lil Frank can't do.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 04-12-2020 at 2:24 AM.. |
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Sometimes, simple is better. Reloading has regressed and scores and groups have gotten better? Not sure how you figure that. Neck sizing was the way to reload in the past. Now, nearly every precision shooter has shifted to FL sizing. Reloading components have also gotten better, namely the bullet. That and the quality of barrels have progressed the sport tremendously.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#37
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I don't like jamming the bullet into the lands. It would be my luck someone would call a cease fire and now i have a chambered round I don't want to open the bolt on. |
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#39
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.008" seems to be about the max to limit over working the brass. I'd prefer a little less as I keep my guns cleaner then that and I anneal after each firing. .005" would be ideal in a bolt gun.
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#40
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If you read your own post it answers your question. And neck sizing is alive and well for those who can do it properly. Precision shooters and F-Class isn't about the smallest group so they don't need to load to benchrest levels. And in case you don't see it barrels have gotten better and the shooters in precision rifle and F-Class arer now using what the Benchrest crowd used before 2010. 6 Dasher with Vapor Trail Bullets formerly Clay Spencer bullets is what I was using in 2008.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 11-26-2019 at 3:56 PM.. |
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