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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #6041  
Old 03-20-2023, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BlessedHunter View Post
Just thought how amazing it would be if in the next two days, this case, the AW case and Renna all were judged in our favor.
Each case has a two week timeline before it?s enjoined??
Depends on the judge's specific orders.
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  #6042  
Old 04-02-2023, 5:52 PM
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Silence is deafening
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  #6043  
Old 04-02-2023, 6:02 PM
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A lot of us are waiting on this one. fingers crossed
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  #6044  
Old 04-12-2023, 5:14 PM
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Any new information on this?
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  #6045  
Old 04-12-2023, 5:33 PM
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Still waiting for the ruling. No way to know when it'll come out. I would speculate it comes out this month as it's near two months since the final briefs were due, but could still be longer.
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  #6046  
Old 04-12-2023, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CGZ View Post
Still waiting for the ruling. No way to know when it'll come out. I would speculate it comes out this month as it's near two months since the final briefs were due, but could still be longer.
Since 'we' expect a favorable ruling, 'we' also know that CA will immediately appeal. (Or, not so immediate - dragging this out seems part of the strategy.)

It's good to have the step solidly in the books, but eagerness really has no utility.
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  #6047  
Old 04-12-2023, 6:38 PM
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I have to wonder, if Benitez doesn't stay his ruling and the 9th does, but without the grandfathering of existing magazines, would that likely motivate SCOTUS to step in? Unless I'm mistaken, the initial stay by Benitez is the only thing still protecting our grandfathered in magazines, including freedom week mags. If that protection is not included in a future stay by the 9th, that would then result in harm and may push SCOTUS to intervene.

I could be wrong, but I think that could be interesting.
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  #6048  
Old 04-12-2023, 9:30 PM
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Odds are there will be a stay since requiring forfeiture of grandfathered magazines is likely a "taking" that requires just compensation. To maintain the status quo therefore requires at least a stay to that extent. But I doubt Benitez would leave us to the wolves without issuing a stay.
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  #6049  
Old 04-13-2023, 12:07 PM
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It’s likely any ruling will be issued with a seven or fourteen day stay, since the AG already asked for it to be included.
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  #6050  
Old 04-13-2023, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Luciansulla View Post
It?s likely any ruling will be issued with a seven or fourteen day stay, since the AG already asked for it to be included.

I doubt that would be the case, it?s either going to be no stay, or a stay without a specific limit. If his intention is to protect the people who possess the magazines from freedom week, it would have to be a stay without a limit because once the 7 or 14 days is up, then the 9th decides and gets full control.

If he wanted to force their hand and make thousands of people criminals in order to spur Supreme Court review, then he could just not enter a stay. Just because Bonta asked for it, he can ignore the request and deny it.

This is one case that was remanded back from the Supreme Court, so they got their ruling wrong, and the 9th knows it. Now we just have to see what stupid things they try.
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  #6051  
Old 04-13-2023, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
I doubt that would be the case, it?s either going to be no stay, or a stay without a specific limit. If his intention is to protect the people who possess the magazines from freedom week, it would have to be a stay without a limit because once the 7 or 14 days is up, then the 9th decides and gets full control.

If he wanted to force their hand and make thousands of people criminals in order to spur Supreme Court review, then he could just not enter a stay. Just because Bonta asked for it, he can ignore the request and deny it.

This is one case that was remanded back from the Supreme Court, so they got their ruling wrong, and the 9th knows it. Now we just have to see what stupid things they try.

Not on the possession, the stay will be on the ruling itself taking effect. Don?t expect a freedom week this time to order new mags.
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  #6052  
Old 04-13-2023, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
I doubt that would be the case, it?s either going to be no stay, or a stay without a specific limit. If his intention is to protect the people who possess the magazines from freedom week, it would have to be a stay without a limit because once the 7 or 14 days is up, then the 9th decides and gets full control.

If he wanted to force their hand and make thousands of people criminals in order to spur Supreme Court review, then he could just not enter a stay. Just because Bonta asked for it, he can ignore the request and deny it.

This is one case that was remanded back from the Supreme Court, so they got their ruling wrong, and the 9th knows it. Now we just have to see what stupid things they try.
I'm hoping for no stay to force the issue. CA9 could have heard the case again but remanded to DC, most likely to run the clock. So f `em. Make them either make tens of thousands of criminals overnight (that would almost certainly get SCOTUS attention after the GVR) or bend a knee and acknowledge they need to work within the system just like all the rest of us.
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  #6053  
Old 04-13-2023, 8:43 PM
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Hoping for a stay is like the frog hoping that the heat gets turned up slowly.
No stay!
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  #6054  
Old 04-13-2023, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
But I doubt Benitez would leave us to the wolves without issuing a stay.
This party has gone on long enough. Time to end it.
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  #6055  
Old 04-14-2023, 8:42 AM
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Not a Cali or a Federal decision and only trial court level, but a Washington Superior Court judge just ruled per my7 news feed that Washinigton States lcm law did not violate the 2A because a magazines are not arms. I can't find the story, but the judge found that state laws are presumed to be valid and the plaintiff had the burden to proving otherwise. I don't know if the point raised here by Michel was argued there.

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Indeed, “[b]ecause magazines feed ammunition into certain guns, and ammunition is necessary for such a gun to function as intended, magazines are ‘arms’ within the meaning of the Second Amendment.” ***’n of N.J. Rifle & Pistol Clubs v. Att’y Gen. of N.J., 910 F.3d 106, 116 (3d Cir. 2018)
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  #6056  
Old 04-14-2023, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
I can't find the story, but the judge found that state laws are presumed to be valid and the plaintiff had the burden to proving otherwise.
This has always been the case and it hasn't changed. The burden is on the plaintiff. What has changed are two things: (1) the type of defense the state can introduce, and (2) the legal framework for evaluating 2A cases.
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  #6057  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
This has always been the case and it hasn't changed. The burden is on the plaintiff. What has changed are two things: (1) the type of defense the state can introduce, and (2) the legal framework for evaluating 2A cases.
Your assertion conflicts with the plain language in Bruen

"Under Heller, when the Second Amendment?s plain text covers an individual?s conduct, the Constitution presumptively pro- tects that conduct, and to justify a firearm regulation the government must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with the Nation?s historical tradition of firearm regulation." [emphasis added]

The only burden the Plaintiff has to bear is straightforward - plain text of the 2A.
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Last edited by Drivedabizness; 04-14-2023 at 9:02 AM.. Reason: typo
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  #6058  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
This has always been the case and it hasn't changed. The burden is on the plaintiff. What has changed are two things: (1) the type of defense the state can introduce, and (2) the legal framework for evaluating 2A cases.
Yes, but Bruen raises a presumption of violation of the 2a, which the judge set aside by finding that magazines are not arms. I guess the judge felt that the New Jersey case didn't apply to Washington State's law.
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  #6059  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:09 AM
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I guess SCOTUS's GVR was not a big enough clue for them to get.

Some judges will always inject their biases until the populace get's the courage to remove them.

Looks like they'll have to wait for Duncan to make its way past the 9th in order for them to get the resolution they deserve.
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  #6060  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:11 AM
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Any judge that thinks magazines aren’t required for a semi auto firearm to function is clearly not intelligent enough to be a judge and should be removed from the bench.
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  #6061  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
Any judge that thinks magazines aren?t required for a semi auto firearm to function is clearly not intelligent enough to be a judge and should be removed from the bench.
Some will function, but barely.

Saw on the net where some judges think a mag is an accessory because it can function (fire a round) with the magazine removed. This is true of some guns, but not all Califronia models, which must not fire with the magazine removed.

Even then a pistol that can only fire the one round in the chamber is a very poor choice for self-defense.

Then there are models that won't even allow a round to be chambered absent a magazine. Even if you can fire the chambered round after the magzine is removed, you have to have the magazine to chamber it prior to dropping the mag.
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  #6062  
Old 04-14-2023, 9:53 AM
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I would think that reduced capacity (from standard) magazines are a kluge just to sell to states requiring them. I can't imagine the gun manufacturers testing them and spending as much development. I know I read about Glock 10 round magazines having feeding issues, especially in 40.
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  #6063  
Old 04-14-2023, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Some will function, but barely.

Saw on the net where some judges think a mag is an accessory because it can function (fire a round) with the magazine removed. This is true of some guns, but not all Califronia models, which must not fire with the magazine removed.

Even then a pistol that can only fire the one round in the chamber is a very poor choice for self-defense.

Then there are models that won't even allow a round to be chambered absent a magazine. Even if you can fire the chambered round after the magzine is removed, you have to have the magazine to chamber it prior to dropping the mag.
Not only do versions with magazine disconnects not work, I doubt any judge would accept a ban on religious texts, if the ban allowed for one copy per state. Semi autos are the firearm of choice for self defense. Magazines are critical components for the function of the firearm, as intended.
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  #6064  
Old 04-14-2023, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Some will function, but barely.

Saw on the net where some judges think a mag is an accessory because it can function (fire a round) with the magazine removed. This is true of some guns, but not all Califronia models, which must not fire with the magazine removed.

Even then a pistol that can only fire the one round in the chamber is a very poor choice for self-defense.

Then there are models that won't even allow a round to be chambered absent a magazine. Even if you can fire the chambered round after the magzine is removed, you have to have the magazine to chamber it prior to dropping the mag.

How do they rationalize mandating a magazine disconnect while considering a magazine as an accessory ?
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  #6065  
Old 04-14-2023, 11:45 AM
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How do they rationalize mandating a magazine disconnect while considering a magazine as an accessory ?
There is zero accountability, so they can rationalize anything they want. The law is the law, it?s not rational or logical. The law is whatever they decide.
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  #6066  
Old 04-14-2023, 11:57 AM
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Which is exactly why getting judicial nominations under 2A friendly administrations is the critical link in all this. 9th circuit decisions have nothing to do with logic.

Check out this article. The anti-gunners know this is exactly the case. https://prospect.org/politics/2023-0...-gerontocracy/
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  #6067  
Old 04-14-2023, 2:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempleKnight View Post
How do they rationalize mandating a magazine disconnect while considering a magazine as an accessory ?

How do they rationalize a mag is an accessory while also saying others parts are considered a firearm such as slides , uppers and even pieces of medal.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...an-ghost-guns/

The lefts mental gymnastics is incomprehensible.


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  #6068  
Old 04-14-2023, 3:11 PM
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TSA says a magazine is a firearm part. "Firearm parts, including magazines, clips, bolts and firing pins, are prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage."
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  #6069  
Old 04-14-2023, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
TSA says a magazine is a firearm part. "Firearm parts, including magazines, clips, bolts and firing pins, are prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage."
We also have California case law to same effect. Please refer to the California Court of Appeals 1974 decision in People v Hale.
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  #6070  
Old 04-14-2023, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok55 View Post
I would think that reduced capacity (from standard) magazines are a kluge just to sell to states requiring them. I can't imagine the gun manufacturers testing them and spending as much development. I know I read about Glock 10 round magazines having feeding issues, especially in 40.
The right is for "functional arms"

One round maybe is not "functional" in any practical sense.
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  #6071  
Old 04-14-2023, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Drivedabizness View Post
The right is for "functional arms"

One round maybe is not "functional" in any practical sense.
Really?

Functional is subjective, you really thing rights are grounded in subjective criteria?

I can't seem to find the word functional in there.


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  #6072  
Old 04-15-2023, 7:15 AM
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Really?

Functional is subjective, you really thing rights are grounded in subjective criteria?

I can't seem to find the word functional in there.


Read Heller - you'll find it. (or then again, maybe YOU won't)

It's been a major theme in the litigation too.
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  #6073  
Old 04-15-2023, 8:44 AM
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Is "useble" more or less subjective than "functional"? The first paragraph of Heller reads:
Quote:
We consider whether a District of Columbia prohibition on the possession of usable handguns in the home violates the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
If you don't like "functionable" or "usable" try "operable", which is the term used in Heller's holding.

Quote:
In sum, we hold that the District’s ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as **2822 does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense. Assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of Second Amendment rights, the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home.
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  #6074  
Old 04-16-2023, 11:58 AM
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Interesting, there is a theory that St. Benitez is waiting for Washington's new AW ban to pass.

https://youtu.be/7LYpvIjJwzQ
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Old 04-17-2023, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash359 View Post
Interesting, there is a theory that St. Benitez is waiting for Washington's new AW ban to pass.

https://youtu.be/7LYpvIjJwzQ
My son manages a gun shop in Washington. Sales there have been through the roof. I hope the decision affects every state covered by the 9th circuit.
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Old 04-17-2023, 11:28 AM
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My son manages a gun shop in Washington. Sales there have been through the roof. I hope the decision affects every state covered by the 9th circuit.
The Benitez decision only effects California, but the 9th appeal could liberate Washington
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Old 04-17-2023, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash359 View Post
The Benitez decision only effects California, but the 9th appeal could liberate Washington
An appellate decision by the Ninth Circuit in the Duncan case would not "Liberate" Washington.

Washington state's large-capacity magazine ban would remain in place. There would need to be a separate challenge made to Washington's ban in order to overturn it. Such a challenge would be greatly facilitated by a favorable, and published, decision in the Duncan case, but it isn't automatic.

In the alternative, a favorable appellate decision in the Duncan case could also persuade the Washington legislature to repeal the Washington ban, but I'll let everyone draw their own opinion as to how likely that will be.
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Old 04-18-2023, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash359 View Post
Interesting, there is a theory that St. Benitez is waiting for Washington's new AW ban to pass.

https://youtu.be/7LYpvIjJwzQ
This makes no sense. The Benitez cases are applicable to specific CA laws, that doesn't directly impact WA at all. WA residents will have to sue their own state for freedom.
Also, even if it did impact WA, which it doesn't, 1 second before - 1 year before wouldn't make a difference.
It took the judge 6 weeks to write up his ruling on the previous 1 case, he now has 4 in front of him and needs to make them all water tight individually and collectively (billy club case isn't going to help with that at all). Naturally it's going to take longer to craft 4 masterpieces than it took to conclude with 1.
The only reason to delay once already written is if there is a particularly disfavorable appellate panel.
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Old 04-18-2023, 8:15 AM
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Is it possible that Judge Benitez will submit his ruling when he believes he has finished, irrespective of other courts?

Last edited by WithinReason; 04-19-2023 at 7:40 AM..
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Old 04-18-2023, 8:24 AM
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