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  #1  
Old 04-14-2019, 6:02 AM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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Default Learning about the Rapture

At the request of a buddy, I am watching some Perry Stone DVDs on the Rapture. I'm about 2/3 the way through(3 DVDS watched out of a total of 5), and the jury is still out. My buddy and I were both raised SDA, which iteaches post Trib 2nd Coming. My buddy gave up on the Church many years ago, but I still retain some of the core beliefs. I have dumped a bunch of the other stuff they teach.
I can say that I am trying to watch these with an open mind, and I have learned things. However, after my experiences with my Church, I have developed a rule that I use on everyone. That rule is, if they are wrong on any one thing, then I can assume they are wrong in everything. Once I hit a "wrong" spot, it makes it difficult to proceed. As a retired LEO I am familiar with a CA Jury Instruction that states that if one has determined that witness has lied about one thing, one can assume that they have lied about everything.
The issue comes down to if the "error" truly is an error, or if it is a deliberate "error". Along the lines of the Jesuit, "the end justifies the means".
So far, I've run into two "errors". The first being the biggest.
1 Thes. 4:14-17. I was raised learning vs 16 & 17, but nothing was said about vs 14, as it seems to violate our teachings. However, what I am talking about is the, "God will bring with Him". Perry Sone says, and I have heard it from others, that that proves there is a Rapture, since there hasn't been any resurrection. Those people Christ is bringing with Him have to come from somewhere, ergo, Rapture.
Which plainly ignores the resurrection Matthew speaks of that occurred at Christ resurrection. The trouble is that one does not know how big a group it was. Matt.27:52 says, "many", but can also mean "great" or "much". My personal feeling is that it is at least 24, from Rev. 19:4, but "24" is not "many", "much", or "great". So, we have no idea what size group it is. Though I lean towards a really, really big group, possibly everyone from the First Covenant. That is a personal opinion, with no Biblical proof.
Eph. 4:8's "He led captivity captive" is sometimes translated, in some side bar translations, as "He led a multitude of multitudes". But, that brings up the problem of, is that a literal comment? Did He actually lead a multitude right at that time? Or, was that a figurative statement in that He was the first of many yet to come?
Am I being too picky, to harsh, and not giving Perry Stone a chance? Or, am I at least somewhat on the right idea. I do agree with many of the things he says, and I am learning. I'm just not sure that I can agree with all of his conclusions.

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Old 04-14-2019, 8:01 AM
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I don't think you are too harsh or picky. There are at least 6 different eschatological theories. 4 of them are at least 1500 years old. 1 is over 400 years old. The newest is 200 years old. So, the subject has been speculated on by the greatest theologians for a long time. It is not suprising that you are confused. You're in a very large club.
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Old 04-14-2019, 9:02 AM
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I Bros, I don't have any stock in Perry Stone or his ministry, However I believe his efforts to help folks understand " The Rapture " are sincere and accurate.
Another Bro, now passed on has excellent material on the rapture is Chuck Missler. Give Perry a chance and include plenty of prayer as well. I myself absolutely " expect The Rapture " to occur when the Church Age has ran its course. When, when the Almighty says it done, go get my family and bring them to me.

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Old 04-16-2019, 9:15 PM
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I personally don’t ascribe to the “Rapture” theory. Many people do and this is why we within the Christian family must allow for “liberty” on the non-essential doctrine and belief. I believe that the rapture is a -non-essential” doctrine.

Not Martin Luther, Calvin, nor the Catholic Church and many others ever believed in the rapture. It was created by John Nelson Darby who was a kook.

Anyway, I don’t think that scripture points to a rapture. It points to a second coming but not a rapture.
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Old 04-16-2019, 9:43 PM
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Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected along with the righteous from Adam to Christ. Known as the First resurrection. The first resurrection is still taking place with another big wave to be resurrected at the 2nd coming of Christ. The Righteous from Christ to the 2nd coming.
The scriptures say that as it was in the time of Noah so shall it be in the last days. In Noah’s day the righteous were gathered to the city of Enoch and the wicked died in the flood. The city of Enoch was lifted off the earth into heaven.
SO
I believe that it is not impossible before Christ returns and the earth is cleansed by fire that the righteous left on the earth could be caught up to meet him around the time of the wave of resurrected persons at Christ’s 2nd coming.
Hence when he comes at the 2nd coming the righteous will be with him.

Righteous were lifted at the time of Noah as at the 2nd coming.
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Old 04-17-2019, 4:19 PM
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I've never studied up on rapture, pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, etc. Frankly, I found it inconsequential to me . The second coming of Jesus is explicit, but the rapture is so fuzzy.

Serious question to the OP: how does this knowledge impact your walk with Christ?

Perhaps, I'm missing the value of it.
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Old 04-17-2019, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post

Not Martin Luther, Calvin, nor the Catholic Church and many others ever believed in the rapture. It was created by John Nelson Darby who was a kook.
None of those named persons had a complete set of the scriptures. Besides the fact that until the 1830’s or so, most of the world was illiterate.

It was not unique to Darby, either. Besides the apostle Paul, many of the later church fathers that followed proclaimed a catching away of believers. I can dig up the list for you if you want.
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Old 04-17-2019, 6:10 PM
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A violent removal from earth.
The Bible makes it clear.

A lot of so called learned persons will say different.

Three words in the Greek language needs to be considered

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexi...v/harpazo.html
Harpazo is a violent taking.
Think about being thrown into the side of a van and whisked away. It's quick and brutal

https://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm
This is as if two police officers come along side and carry you off.
It's not quick and it's not forceful

The next Greek work which I can not find at the moment is Jesus calling His people together.
Think dinner bell. This coming together is voluntary.
When I get the word I will post it

Matthew 24:31 episynagō https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1996&t=KJV

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Old 04-18-2019, 6:17 AM
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Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau (died 303 or 304 AD), wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.
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Old 04-18-2019, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau (died 303 or 304 AD), wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.
Amen. Your key phrase is "actual teachings from the Bible." When I had to study end-times (eschatology) in Seminary, we went through every view. What was most fascinating was the in every other view other than pre-trib Rapture, the main proponents ADMITTED that if you use a consistent, historical, literal (i.e. within genre, within context), interpretation (i.e. hermeneutic), you would come up with a pre-Trib Rapture! IOW, ALL other views somehow allegorize Scripture away from it's natural, in-context meaning as would've been seen by the authors and Christians at the time of writings.

I don't fight over eschatological views, but love to tell others that I'll look for them as we're being raptured to see the wondrous look of surprise and joy on their faces!
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Old 04-18-2019, 7:46 AM
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Anyway, I don’t think that scripture points to a rapture. It points to a second coming but not a rapture.

Agreed



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Old 04-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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When JESUS came back and got me I was being attacked from all sides and one of them was the rapture and other teachings and from the bottom of my heart I told GOD I need you to show me the truth I don’t want to be deceived.

It was a Saturday a rapture video was in my YouTube feed I watched the video and it gave my spirit a peace but still had some doubt, next day we go to church the pastor comes up and says I’m going off course today from are teaching in John and we going to study end times and rapture.

I was like ok this interesting and to top it off when we worship we end the service with a song we sang normal right well not that day we ended service with a song we didn’t sing we sang 10,000 reasons , so here is the kicker that was the same song the video ended with and I just smiled and said GOD I hear you loud and clear. So yes I believe in the rapture not because man told me but GOD himself told me.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
[...]Many people do and this is why we within the Christian family must allow for “liberty” on the non-essential doctrine and belief. I believe that the rapture is a -non-essential” doctrine.
[...]
I agree that this is not something to divide over. There are many very careful thinkers-- Greg Koukl, for example-- who don't agree with the pre-tribulation rapture. At the same time, there are others, equally careful, deep thinkers, who argue for a pre-tribulation rapture. You can't reasonably expect these arguments to be distilled into a twenty-five-words-or-less CG post, however.

One proponent of a pre-tribulation rapture, who makes (what seems to me) a very compelling argument for that perspective is Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He wrote a book, in fact, Footsteps of the Messiah. It is 840 pages of how to understand eschatology through the lens of OT and NT prophecy.

I was directed to this book when I asked a friend to help me understand J. Vernon McGee's take on Matthew 24, particularly verses 37-41. My friend, one of the most Godly people I have been privileged to know, a tremendous student of the Bible, and self-taught in Hebrew and Greek, directed me to Fruchtenbaum's book.

Key points from Fruchtenbaum's argument are:

John 14:1-3 includes the promise "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Fruchtenbaum explains:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, FotM, p. 143
This passage does not detail the Rapture event, but does contain the promise of it. In these verses, Jesus promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that there is a coming of Jesus for His saints. This coming especially for the saints is the subject of revelation in the two other passages. This passage does make one key point: this coming for the believers was for the purpose of taking them to where He was then going. Since Jesus was then going to Heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to Heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in Postribulationism the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But this is not the promise here. He is coming to take the saints to Heaven. The passage itself says nothing about the timing of the Rapture, only that the result of it is our entry into Heaven. This fits well with Pretribulationism.
Regarding another well-known passage, one of the many points he raises is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, FotM, p. 143
The second passage is I Thessalonians 4:13-18, which describes the program of the Rapture [...] In verses 13-15, Paul answers a question that has been raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the Rapture? [...] Having stared that the dead believers benefit from the Rapture before the living do, in verses 16-17, Paul spells out the chronnlogical sequence of the Rapture event in seven stages to show why this is true. First: the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Jesus will come out of the Heaven of heavens and descend imo the atmospheric heavens. [...]
Sixth: then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Jesus in the heavens. 'The living believers will be caught up (raptured) with the dead ones. This is the source of the term rapture. The Greek word used here, harpazo, means "to be caught up." The English term rapture comes from a Latin source which is the Latin equivalent to the Greek term meaning the same thing: "to be caught up."
The seventh step is: to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. The final step is the fact that both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will both meet the Messiah in the air. Then comes the guarantee that once believers have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into Heaven, as already promised in John 14: 1-3. This passage also says nothing about the timing of the Rapture, only the chronological sequence in which the Rapture event occurs.
Finally, regarding 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, he remarks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, FotM, p. 147
The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both Midtribulationists and Posttriblilationists try to identify this with the seventh trumpet of the Book of Revelation. But this cannot be what is meant by the last trump; at the time that I Corinthians was written, John had not written Revelation. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. Yet it is evident from the fact that Paul used the definite article the last trump that he expected the Corinthians to know what he was talking about. [...]
Regarding the timing of the Rapture, he offers a total of five different reasons, based on five different passages, as to why the Rapture must come before the great tribulation. I can't quote all of that here, as it covers several pages, but some key elements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, FotM, p. 149
The next question concerning the Rapture is when will it take place? That the Scriptures teach that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation is clear from several lines of evidence.
First: in no biblical passage which discusses the Tribulation is the Church mentioned. The fact that saints are found in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there any more than the existence of saints in the Old Testament proves that the Church was there.
[...]
Fifth: another key verse dealing with the timing element of the Rapture is in Revelation 3:10. In this passage. the Church is promised to be kept from the period of trial that is about to fall upon the whole earth. In the context of the Book of Revelation, it is the Tribulation found in chapters 6-19 that is this period of trial that is to fall upon the whole earth. It is from this period of trial that the Church is to be kept. This verse does not say that the Church will be merely kept safe during the trial, but it will be kept from the very hour of the trial, that is, from the very time of it. This requires a removal before the Tribulation ever occurs. If Revelation 3:10 only means that the Church will be kept safe during the Tribulation, then something goes terribly wrong. Throughout the Tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale (Rev. 6:9-11; 11:7; 12:11; 13:7, 15; 14:13; 17:6; 18:24). If these saints are Church saints, they are not being kept safe and Revelation 3:10 is meaningless. Only if Church saints and Tribulation saints are kept distinct does the promise of Revelation 3:10 make any sense. These passages of Scripture all state that the Church will be removed before the wrath, or the Day of the Lord, or the Tribulation comes. The removal will come by means of the Rapture of the Church. There are a number of other evidences for a Pretribulation Rapture which will be dealt with in another context. [...]
Another question that needs to be discussed is: When before the Tribulation does the Rapture take place? The Scriptures teach that the coming of the Messiah for the believer is imminent, that is, He can come at any time or moment.
[...]
While the earlier passages all clearly taught that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation, these last four passages teach that the Rapture is imminent; He could come at any moment. Only if the Rapture comes before the Tribulation can this be true. In Miduibulationism, the Rapture is always at least 3.5 years away. In Posttribulationism it is at least seven years away. [...]
I've never been to seminary, never trained formally in exegesis, and I recognize that some Christians can get distracted from keeping first things first by excessive focus on end times and all of that. But if you want to understand eschatology better, for the price of a couple Glock magazines you can buy a book which will help tremendously. Cards on the table, I have not read all 840 pages; I read it when I have questions about things, such as the questions raised in this thread. I'd say I've probably read half the book at this point.

You can get a lot of the content of the book from messages given by Fruchtenbaum that are available on YT for free. IME his writing is far more impressive than his speaking, but both are worth considering.



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Old 04-18-2019, 4:11 PM
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OP here with a couple of comments about some of the comments I read.
Not all post-Trib churches believe that after the Saints meet Christ in the air that they then come to Earth. Some believe that after meeting Him in the air, they then go to Heaven.
Second, my understanding (and I may not have it entirely correct), is that the "last trump" occurs at the end of Rosh Hoshana(Feast of Trumpets), and it sounds at the moment the first sliver of the New Moon is seen. Signifying the start of Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement.
Interestingly enough, there is a two day period during which Rabbis are searching for the New Moon, and this two day period is referred to as "no man knows the day nor the hours". Since nobody knows when the New Moon will be seen.
I'm sure we're all familiar with that term and who spoke it.
Perry Stone references it on his DVD. But, I first heard about it a few years ago when watching a video from Psalms 119 Ministry.
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Old 04-18-2019, 5:14 PM
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Another point of view.
https://amillennialism.wordpress.com...-riddlebarger/
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Old 04-18-2019, 8:01 PM
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Default Learning about the Rapture

I am now able to give some time to offer a more thorough response to the issue of the Rapture. I mean no disrespect to anyone’s beliefs or studies. This is what I have found to be true, according to the word of God.



The rapture is most commonly associated with a surprise ‘’taking away’ of faithful followers, leaving behind the rest, surrounding a time of ‘great tribulation’ (depending on a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib scenario). Following the tribulation the Lord will return and excise judgment. There is also a period of 1,000 years of peace included, when depends on the timeline of the scenario. Whatever the order of these events, they all suggest more than one return of Christ, and more than one day of judgment.



What I know from the Bible is:



Jesus is indeed coming again.



“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also” - John 14:1-3



“And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.’” - Acts 1:9-11



The Lord’s return will not be secretive or silent



“BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.” - Revelation 1:7



Christ is returning to receive His kingdom



“then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.” - 1 Corinthians 15:24



When Christ returns, the earth and everything in it will be destroyed:



“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” - 2 Peter 3:10



When Christ returns, judgment will take place including both alive and dead, both the good and the evil:



“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil to a resurrection of judgment.” John 5:28-29



“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.” Matthew 25:31



At this time, the saved will be with the Lord forever:



“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18



One return, one judgment, on one day. Thanks for reading.
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Old 04-19-2019, 4:30 AM
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Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau (died 303 or 304 AD), wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.
Paul taught it in the first century
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Old 04-19-2019, 4:37 AM
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We see the Rapture of the church and the Second Coming of Christ are two seperate events, when we examine the scriptures...

The Rapture of the church
Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17
Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thess 4:13-18
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2, Rev. 19:6-9
MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the Rapture
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes to see) 1 Cor 15:52
Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16
A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6
No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them)
Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16
Jesus does not return on a white horse
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1 Thess 4:14-17
A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3

Second Coming
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14
Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:11-21
Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind.Matt 13:28-30
Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4
Slow coming, people will see Him come back. Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7
No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5
Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8
Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21
Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11
For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt 25:31-46
A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5
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Old 04-19-2019, 5:38 AM
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Most churches still think “Thou shall not kill” when it is really “Thou shall not murder”. Why else would Christ say “Sell you cloak and get a sword” in the context of dealing with criminals? This is a common mistake and I have only heard the difference

I think it is very important that the pastor(s) study the original documents and look at the various translations. The differences are inportant as they reveal the actual intent rather than the errors that creep in due to repeated translations. Avoiding such errors is important; Revelations tells us what happens to churches that corrupt the Bible

Always call them on it. Standup and say something. Do not be passive.

I had some pastor or priest start lecturing me after overhearing our discussion on pistol training. He did the “live by the sword, die by the sword” silliness. He couldn’t even recognize that we were not robbing the place or engaging in such activities. He just knew we were talking aboit guns and assumed we were criminals.

Last edited by tomrkba; 04-19-2019 at 6:28 AM..
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Old 04-19-2019, 5:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
None of those named persons had a complete set of the scriptures. Besides the fact that until the 1830’s or so, most of the world was illiterate.

It was not unique to Darby, either. Besides the apostle Paul, many of the later church fathers that followed proclaimed a catching away of believers. I can dig up the list for you if you want.
And neither do we. The Bible was assembled by men, based on THEIR opinions of which books were worthy.
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Old 04-19-2019, 6:59 AM
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And neither do we. The Bible was assembled by men, based on THEIR opinions of which books were worthy.
So GOD is not as powerful as he says he is too you ? He not omnipotent
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Old 04-19-2019, 7:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
None of those named persons had a complete set of the scriptures. Besides the fact that until the 1830’s or so, most of the world was illiterate.

It was not unique to Darby, either. Besides the apostle Paul, many of the later church fathers that followed proclaimed a catching away of believers. I can dig up the list for you if you want.
So now it’s “they didn’t have a complete bible,” or “they were illiterate back then.” Typical that when one group can’t substantiate their views, they go into full on ad hominem mode. I’ve already seen a superfluous list of names and it never impressed me. There’s people out there that will claim that they discovered the secret ingredient to Coca-Cola between the pages of the book of Exodus too.
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Old 04-19-2019, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
We see the Rapture of the church and the Second Coming of Christ are two seperate events, when we examine the scriptures...

The Rapture of the church
Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17
Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thess 4:13-18
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2, Rev. 19:6-9
MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the Rapture
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes to see) 1 Cor 15:52
Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16
A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6
No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them)
Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16
Jesus does not return on a white horse
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1 Thess 4:14-17
A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3

Second Coming
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14
Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:11-21
Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind.Matt 13:28-30
Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4
Slow coming, people will see Him come back. Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7
No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5
Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8
Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21
Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11
For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt 25:31-46
A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5
Well put.
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Old 04-19-2019, 9:04 AM
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The word "rapture" was actually suggested by the Roman Latin Vulgate's translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17...deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur (meaning "to snatch, carry off") cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1Thessalonians 4:17 VUL).

That is the source for the word "rapture" itself. Our English translation of the verse reads, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord". (NKJ)

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. (NEV).
This indicates those who are left and have survived are caught up.
This also indicates that no one knows for sure and we need to be very generous with our brothers.
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Old 05-11-2019, 9:46 AM
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Came back to reread this interesting post and get some updates... I noticed a question that arises from this topic from time to time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
We see the Rapture of the church and the Second Coming of Christ are two seperate events, when we examine the scriptures...

The Rapture of the church
Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17


Second Coming
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14
So, with the above two categories you made, I’ve shortened them from the original post. You said the second coming has “two separate events.” So in that case then, we must add up EACH EVENT as claimed and as being totally “separate.” Let’s begin:

You listed “The Rapture of the Church,” in the first heading, stating that “Jesus COMING FOR His Church.” (That’s 1).

And then...

Your second column titled ”Second Coming” with “Jesus coming WITH His Church.” (That’s 2)

Coming back “for” His Church, coming back “with” His Church.... So is Jesus coming back three times then?????

Example:

Jesus on earth (from NT)
+ Jesus coming back “with” His Church
+ Jesus coming back “for” His Church
————————————————————-
= 3 “comings to Earth.”

No matter how one tries to interpret the scriptures on this question (because everyone tries to bring up Paul from 1Thes 4 on this question), they’re never able to clearly explain the fact that they’re still showing Christ coming to earth THREE times and not twice. A “second” coming is clearly depicted in the Bible, not a 3rd.

Words and passages can be carefully picked out of scripture albeit with good intentions, yet they tend to be confusing for a well intentioned but incorrect narrative. However the universal language of math, can’t be refuted.

I counted “3 comings” with the above rapture theory and not 2 comings to earth as told in the Bible.

Again however, this is why we all have liberty to disagree on non-essentials within the Church. I don’t know if I’m 100% correct on my own theory, nor do I know if a person that believes in the rapture is 100% correct. One side of the argument is wrong, but it doesn’t matter (thank God).

However I do know that the only real important thing out of all this friendly debate is that Christ shall return.

Hallelujah!
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  #26  
Old 05-11-2019, 9:54 AM
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Kokopelli Kokopelli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
Came back to reread this interesting post and get some updates... I noticed a question that arises from this topic from time to time:



So, with the above two categories you made, I’ve shortened them from the original post. You said the second coming has “two separate events.” So in that case then, we must add up EACH EVENT as claimed and as being totally “separate.” Let’s begin:

You listed “The Rapture of the Church,” in the first heading, stating that “Jesus COMING FOR His Church.” (That’s 1).

And then...

Your second column titled ”Second Coming” with “Jesus coming WITH His Church.” (That’s 2)

Coming back “for” His Church, coming back “with” His Church.... So is Jesus coming back three times then?????

Example:

Jesus on earth (from NT)
+ Jesus coming back “with” His Church
+ Jesus coming back “for” His Church
————————————————————-
= 3 “comings to Earth.”

No matter how one tries to interpret the scriptures on this question (because everyone tries to bring up Paul from 1Thes 4 on this question), they’re never able to clearly explain the fact that they’re still showing Christ coming to earth THREE times and not twice. A “second” coming is clearly depicted in the Bible, not a 3rd.

Words and passages can be carefully picked out of scripture albeit with good intentions, yet they tend to be confusing for a well intentioned but incorrect narrative. However the universal language of math, can’t be refuted.

I counted “3 comings” with the above rapture theory and not 2 comings to earth as told in the Bible.

Again however, this is why we all have liberty to disagree on non-essentials within the Church. I don’t know if I’m 100% correct on my own theory, nor do I know if a person that believes in the rapture is 100% correct. One side of the argument is wrong, but it doesn’t matter (thank God).

However I do know that the only real important thing out of all this friendly debate is that Christ shall return.

Hallelujah!
Look at the verses that have been posted again. The Rapture of the church is the catching up of believers. Not Christ's return to earth. When Christ returns, He comes to setup His earthly kingdom to rule upon the earth for 1,000 years.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:18 AM
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TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
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Look at the verses that have been posted again. The Rapture of the church is the catching up of believers. Not Christ's return to earth. When Christ returns, He comes to setup His earthly kingdom to rule upon the earth for 1,000 years.
But in both of your two categories of events involving Christ, you (and others on the pro-rapture side of things) always list a “coming” as a singular and individual event. You listed it twice, again this makes a total of three Times Christ comes to earth.

It’s a definite quagmire of things for the or-rapture argument and it can’t be easily explained on that side.

Again, I’m not trying to weaponize the Bible and I fully admit that I could be wrong with my own belief on the matter. I’m open to a change of the mind regarding the rapture. However at this time, I just don’t see it. It also doesn’t sway me in the belief of Jesus one way or the other. The rapture if it does take place or doesn’t, is really irrelevant. What’s only important is that Christ is coming back!
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