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  #41  
Old 02-28-2019, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ErikC12 View Post
[...]
In short, I think that the belief that God prohibits women as teachers or pastors is a somewhat knee-jerk response to the scripture without considering the other factors inherent to the scripture itself.
This is a very thoughtful and measured response, though not a direct answer to the question in the OP:



He expands on this here. In essence, if you want to understand what the Bible is saying to you and how to apply it to your life, you need to first understand what it meant to the original audience, and that is what he is suggesting. Read it and decide for yourself if the point raised is worth keeping in mind.
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  #42  
Old 02-28-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sailormilan2 View Post
Christ broke "rabbinic" rules, He didn't violate the Law of God. There is often a vast difference in what the Law says, and what the Rabbis wanted. Unfortunately, in someways, the Church of today is the same way.
Rabbis didn't write Leviticus.
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  #43  
Old 02-28-2019, 10:58 AM
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Looking at the failures of churchs adopting women pastors. Indicative of Gods infalable word.
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  #44  
Old 02-28-2019, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Does God allow it? Sometimes. And only some gods.

Did Paul allow it? Not likely. But he wasn't in charge of the church either. He gets a lot of credit and more than his fair share of "air time" in the Christian Bible. But he wasn't part of the core 12 at any point. He was an outsider with very different perspectives. Arguably, the original disciples were the ones responsible for getting Paul arrested & imprisoned. So we should take his points of view with a grain of salt. He may have been a minority opinion -- one to consider but hardly the gospel of Jesus himself.

That being said, Paul calls Phoebe a deacon. Women certainly served as deacons in the early church. Paul is not without a few contradictions -- as are all of us.

Did the Torah permit women to lead? Not usually. They were highly patriarchal -- much more than even other Semitic cultures. At least other Semites had female deities, consorts, etc. YHWH was a highly patriarchal dude -- strangely so.

Did Jesus allow it? Not really. But he certainly gave women more influence than his predecessors did. Mary Magdalene may have been more important than most of the 12. But she would have likely been pushed out after Jesus's death. There's no indication that she wanted power or tried to fight for prominence. The early church had enough trouble fighting for credibility & staving off persecution. I doubt they would have made feminism their hill to die on, assuming they were for equality at all.

There's a great book, THE MORAL VISION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that anybody who cares about ethical issues needs to read. While there may not be an explicit, "Let women rule!" commandment in the NT, there's plenty of hints that it's a good idea -- behavioral norms of Jesus, things he has said that would lead us to that conclusion, etc.

And if, like me, you're more pagan than Christian, then this is a no-brainer. Disallowing half the population from leadership in the community on the basis of genitalia alone is pretty stupid in my opinion.

I hate to say it but any culture that can't change with the times is dead or dying. I love the past and very reverent of tradition. Yet, I know that anything that lives and thrives, whether that be individuals or communities, adapts to its environment. Resisting change just means you're on your way out. Locking ourselves into rigid ideals may be rationally consistent. But today is for the living, not the dead.
All Scripture is God Breathed, Paul's writings that we read today are from God Himself.
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  #45  
Old 02-28-2019, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Rabbis didn't write Leviticus.
What Levitical laws did Jesus break?
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  #46  
Old 03-01-2019, 8:14 AM
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What Levitical laws did Jesus break?
We could start a running tally. But we'll start with my previous example -- working on the Sabbath. More than that, he actually said that the Sabbath was made for us, we were not made for the Sabbath. In other words, many rules are made for our benefit but we need not follow them when they don't serve us very well. People are sacred. The rules are, well, guidelines. They're no substitute for good judgment & common sense.
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  #47  
Old 03-01-2019, 8:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
This.

At my church they can hold the title "Minister" and be can be licensed, but they can't hold the title "Pastor."
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
We could start a running tally. But we'll start with my previous example -- working on the Sabbath. More than that, he actually said that the Sabbath was made for us, we were not made for the Sabbath. In other words, many rules are made for our benefit but we need not follow them when they don't serve us very well. People are sacred. The rules are, well, guidelines. They're no substitute for good judgment & common sense.
Maybe you don't understand that Jesus was sinless. He did not / could not break ANY of the Law because breaking ANY law is sin. They aren't guidelines. And, for an Old Testament Jew, following them was the best judgment and the best common sense.

Jesus had the correct interpretation of the Law and kept it perfectly. It was the Jewish leaders of His time that made their own interpretations of the Law and He was correcting them.

I'd suggest a solid Christian Pastor to teach you Romans 9-11. E.g. -

Ro10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them [the OT Jews] is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
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  #49  
Old 03-01-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
We could start a running tally. But we'll start with my previous example -- working on the Sabbath. More than that, he actually said that the Sabbath was made for us, we were not made for the Sabbath. In other words, many rules are made for our benefit but we need not follow them when they don't serve us very well. People are sacred. The rules are, well, guidelines. They're no substitute for good judgment & common sense.
I'm curious cvshooter were does God say man is sacred. I recall jesus saying only God is good. And as for good judgement and common sense guiding us, these are things of the flesh. We as followers of Christ are to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
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  #50  
Old 03-01-2019, 2:09 PM
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Maybe you don't understand that Jesus was sinless. He did not / could not break ANY of the Law because breaking ANY law is sin. They aren't guidelines. And, for an Old Testament Jew, following them was the best judgment and the best common sense.

Jesus had the correct interpretation of the Law and kept it perfectly. It was the Jewish leaders of His time that made their own interpretations of the Law and He was correcting them.

I'd suggest a solid Christian Pastor to teach you Romans 9-11. E.g. -

Ro10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them [the OT Jews] is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
I'd rather not state my credentials. But suffice it to say that I have been trained by many pastors, deacons, elders, academics, priests and monks of several denominations and Catholic orders. The last place I'd go for an education is a randomly-drawn American Protestant minister. They have good hearts and are kind people. But most know very little about the Bible and its times. They know their people -- that is their strength, not their education.
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  #51  
Old 03-01-2019, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nasc50 View Post
I'm curious cvshooter were does God say man is sacred. I recall jesus saying only God is good. And as for good judgement and common sense guiding us, these are things of the flesh. We as followers of Christ are to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
Yea, maybe I'm completely over-emphasizing the old rabbinical idea that the entire Torah can be summed up in "Love God and love your neighbor."
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  #52  
Old 03-01-2019, 2:23 PM
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I'd rather not state my credentials. But suffice it to say that I have been trained by many pastors, deacons, elders, academics, priests and monks of several denominations and Catholic orders. The last place I'd go for an education is a randomly-drawn American Protestant minister. They have good hearts and are kind people. But most know very little about the Bible and its times. They know their people -- that is their strength, not their education.
Sorry to tell you, but you still don't understand Jesus Christ in the most basic and fundamental biblical sense.
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  #53  
Old 03-08-2019, 9:15 AM
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Teaching or excersing authority over a man etc is not to be equated with a position of " Pastor " in all situations. If you don't care for women pastors or teachers go elsewhere. Pastoral counsel or guidance is not always " authority."

I, you are not bound by any reasoning to sit under a women unless you make that choice yourself. For a side note, I have not in 75 years heard of or seen a women pastor or teacher ruin or destroy a church congregation. May some of you have seen this.

Psalm 1

Last edited by Garand Hunter; 03-08-2019 at 9:16 AM.. Reason: paragraph placement
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  #54  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Garand Hunter View Post
Teaching or excersing authority over a man etc is not to be equated with a position of " Pastor " in all situations. If you don't care for women pastors or teachers go elsewhere. Pastoral counsel or guidance is not always " authority."

I, you are not bound by any reasoning to sit under a women unless you make that choice yourself. For a side note, I have not in 75 years heard of or seen a women pastor or teacher ruin or destroy a church congregation. May some of you have seen this.

Psalm 1
1 Tim. 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

God's word doesn't equate women teaching or exercising authority with the position of pastor. God just says it's not allowed (literally). It's not a matter of "don't care...go elsewhere," it's a matter of don't do it anywhere. And, the argument isn't cultural - it goes all the way back to the fall!

And, it's not a matter of what we've seen or experienced. I'm sure that there are excellent women teachers out there. It's just wrong for them to teach or exercise authority over a man.

If you sit under a woman teacher, you sit in serious sin. Not my rules, God's.
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  #55  
Old 03-08-2019, 3:41 PM
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Quote : If you sit under a woman teacher, you sit in serious sin. Not my rules, God's. Sorry Bill, you have overstepped your authority. You have put yourself in the place of God with your statement, no reference to " you sit in serious sin." is in the scripture. I am well acquainted with I Timothy ch 2, and you just excluded all non child bearing women from salvation by faith thru grace ! by quoting this scripture in the context of this thread. Verse 15, But women will be SAVED etc. not preserved as you stated in your quotation above, I am referencing the King James and New King James translations.

I am not rebuking you, but pointing out no direct reference to " you sit in serious sin " is anywhere to be found. As I said, if you don't care for women teaching or pastoring go elsewhere. Ease up on pronouncing sin on me or anyone else, and no, I did not take it personally.

Psalm 1

Last edited by Garand Hunter; 03-08-2019 at 3:43 PM.. Reason: structure
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  #56  
Old 03-08-2019, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Garand Hunter View Post
Quote : If you sit under a woman teacher, you sit in serious sin. Not my rules, God's. Sorry Bill, you have overstepped your authority. You have put yourself in the place of God with your statement, no reference to " you sit in serious sin." is in the scripture. I am well acquainted with I Timothy ch 2, and you just excluded all non child bearing women from salvation by faith thru grace ! by quoting this scripture in the context of this thread. Verse 15, But women will be SAVED etc. not preserved as you stated in your quotation above, I am referencing the King James and New King James translations.

I am not rebuking you, but pointing out no direct reference to " you sit in serious sin " is anywhere to be found. As I said, if you don't care for women teaching or pastoring go elsewhere. Ease up on pronouncing sin on me or anyone else, and no, I did not take it personally.

Psalm 1
Sorry, but v.15 is a statement that I didn't deal with. I dealt with the command of v.11 with the followup in v.12. V.13-14 explain v.11-12. V.15 is a contrast ("but"). The word "saved" does not always mean salvation. It appears many times in the NT without reference to spiritual salvation (e.g. Matthew 8:25; 9:21–22; 10:22; 24:22; 27:40, 42, 49; 2 Timothy. 4:18, etc.).

In v.15, Paul is not teaching that women are eternally saved from the wages of sin through the bearing of children. That would contradict teaching that salvation is by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). The future tense and the plural indicate that he was not even referring to Eve - whom he referenced in V.13-14.

Paul teaches here that although a woman, Eve, precipitated the Fall and all women bear that responsibility, they may be preserved from that stigma through childbearing. The freeing of women from the stigma of having led the race into sin happens when they bring up a righteous children. Women are very important in God's plan because they have the primary responsibility for rearing godly children - a different but not lesser role than men. Paul’s point is that while a woman may have led the race into sin, women have the privilege of leading the race out of sin to godliness. That does not mean that God wants all women to bear children; some He doesn’t even want married (1 Cor. 7:25–40). Paul is speaking in general terms. Pain with childbirth was the punishment for Eve's sin (Gen. 3:16), - the privilege of childbearing delivers women from the stigma of that sin.

When you disobey God's command, it is sin. Sins against God's chosen authority for the church are serious sins as you participate in the sin of the leaders of such a church who promote that sin. You support their sin.

If you sit under a woman teacher, you sit in serious sin. Not my rules, God's. 1 Tim 2:11f are very clear.
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  #57  
Old 03-11-2019, 3:22 PM
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Sorry Bro Bill, it is your rules, there is no such rule indicating serious sin in Paul's instructions to Timothy in the indicated verses. But as for me, you can claim it so all you want to do so. Neither of us can set the standard you attempt to set in place. Have a nice day Bro. I don't back down but stand by my postings. Be Blessed Bro.

Psalm 1
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2019, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Garand Hunter View Post
Sorry Bro Bill, it is your rules, there is no such rule indicating serious sin in Paul's instructions to Timothy in the indicated verses. But as for me, you can claim it so all you want to do so. Neither of us can set the standard you attempt to set in place. Have a nice day Bro. I don't back down but stand by my postings. Be Blessed Bro.

Psalm 1
It's OK to disagree peacefully as you do. Have a great day!
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Old 03-11-2019, 6:14 PM
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I try to consider who sat and cherry picked the books to include in the bible when reading it.
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Old 03-11-2019, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Sorry to tell you, but you still don't understand Jesus Christ in the most basic and fundamental biblical sense.
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Yea, maybe I'm completely over-emphasizing the old rabbinical idea that the entire Torah can be summed up in "Love God and love your neighbor."
Wholeheartedly agree with you CVShooter, you understand Jesus quite well.
Modern day Pharisees may disagree with this assessment.
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