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  #1  
Old 06-10-2019, 4:04 PM
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Default FLA (Federal Limits Apply) Licenses are going to be a nogo...

Just got an email about this "Emergency Rule Making". Looks like they added firearms, so FLAs will now be a nogo for firearms (once adopted).

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...gency-regs.pdf
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2019, 4:06 PM
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Dupe: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1538978
But thanks for posting to let us know.
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Old 06-10-2019, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by vino68 View Post
Dupe: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1538978
But thanks for posting to let us know.
It's not really a dupe per say. This forum is for dealers to discuss issues that effect them, and they may not always stay up to date legislative / rule making stuff.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:10 PM
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I thought that doc says it is ok if they provide residency docs as well. Or am I misreading the underlined section?

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Old 06-10-2019, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I thought that doc says it is ok if they provide residency docs as well. Or am I misreading the underlined section?
Proof of residency does not apply to this issue, which is about providing “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age”.
^Need proof of lawful presence in the USA, not proof of residency in CA.


11 CCR 4045.1
Additional Documentation Requirements for Eligibility Checks with Federal NonCompliant California Driver License or Identification Card.
This section applies to all firearms and ammunition eligibility checks, including any eligibility check described in Division 5. For the purposes of this section, “eligibility checks” refers to background checks based on any application or report for which an applicant is required to submit a driver license or identification card, or the number from a driver license or identification card, so that the Department of Justice may determine the applicant’s eligibility to possess a firearm or ammunition under state or federal law.
(b) For all eligibility checks, if the applicant presents a federal non-compliant California driver license or identification card with the notation “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY” on the front, the applicant shall also submit proof of lawful presence in the United States, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g), in the form of one of the following documents:
(1) Valid, unexpired U.S. passport or passport card.
(2) Certified copy of U.S. birth certificate.
(3) U.S. Certificate or Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a U.S. Citizen.
(4) Valid, unexpired foreign passport with valid U.S. immigrant visa and approved Record of Arrival/Departure (I-94) form.
(5) Certified copy of birth certificate from a U.S. Territory.
(6) Certificate of Naturalization or U.S. Citizenship.
(7) Valid, unexpired Permanent Resident Card.
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Last edited by Quiet; 06-10-2019 at 11:50 PM..
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  #6  
Old 06-11-2019, 6:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Proof of residency does not apply to this issue, which is about providing “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age”.
^Need proof of lawful presence in the USA, not proof of residency in CA.


11 CCR 4045.1
Additional Documentation Requirements for Eligibility Checks with Federal NonCompliant California Driver License or Identification Card.
This section applies to all firearms and ammunition eligibility checks, including any eligibility check described in Division 5. For the purposes of this section, “eligibility checks” refers to background checks based on any application or report for which an applicant is required to submit a driver license or identification card, or the number from a driver license or identification card, so that the Department of Justice may determine the applicant’s eligibility to possess a firearm or ammunition under state or federal law.
(b) For all eligibility checks, if the applicant presents a federal non-compliant California driver license or identification card with the notation “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY” on the front, the applicant shall also submit proof of lawful presence in the United States, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g), in the form of one of the following documents:
(1) Valid, unexpired U.S. passport or passport card.
(2) Certified copy of U.S. birth certificate.
(3) U.S. Certificate or Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a U.S. Citizen.
(4) Valid, unexpired foreign passport with valid U.S. immigrant visa and approved Record of Arrival/Departure (I-94) form.
(5) Certified copy of birth certificate from a U.S. Territory.
(6) Certificate of Naturalization or U.S. Citizenship.
(7) Valid, unexpired Permanent Resident Card.
Yeah that's what I meant. So with the additional docs FLA DLs or IDs are good to go then correct?

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  #7  
Old 06-11-2019, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Yeah that's what I meant. So with the additional docs FLA DLs or IDs are good to go then correct?

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Current guidance from the CADOJ has been that an FLA ID issued post 01/20/2018 was considered to be valid proof of identity, and with these regs that is no longer going to be the case. If you need to provide a passport in addition to proof of residency, the FLA IDs are essentially worthless from a firearms an ammunition perspective.

Last edited by RoundEye; 06-11-2019 at 8:53 AM..
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  #8  
Old 06-11-2019, 8:20 AM
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Thanks Round. I would not have seen this had it not been posted here in this sub forum.
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  #9  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Current guidance from the CADOJ has been that an FLA ID issued post 01/20/2018 was considered to be valid proof of identity, and with these regs that is no longer going to be the case. If you need to provide a passport in addition to proof of residency, the FLA IDs are essentially worthless from a firearms an ammunition perspective.
This is not true. It serves as identity but not serve as proof of eligibility to purchase based on citizen/immigration status.

A green card with FLA is perfectly fine as always, Yes, its a pain in the butt to bring in your passport or Birth Certificate.

What this really is, is a PIA for legal CITIZENS OF THE US to now need to prove they are in fact LEGAL CITIZENS.
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  #10  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
This is not true. It serves as identity but not serve as proof of eligibility to purchase based on citizen/immigration status.
But if you have to bring your Federal Government ID (Passport, Green Card, Visa, ...), and you have proof of residency (Vehicle Registration, Utility Bill, ...) why even bring your FLA ID?
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
But if you have to bring your Federal Government ID (Passport, Green Card, Visa, ...), and you have proof of residency (Vehicle Registration, Utility Bill, ...) why even bring your FLA ID?
REALLY?

This is about California drivers licenses not be a tool to use for immigration status/proof of citizenship to the US. It has zero to do with residency. Illegal immigrants are "residents" in this state.

Not to mention the fact that the ATF requires a state ID in order to buy and they accept the FLA
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
But if you have to bring your Federal Government ID (Passport, Green Card, Visa, ...), and you have proof of residency (Vehicle Registration, Utility Bill, ...) why even bring your FLA ID?
Because CA law requires a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty orders.

BTW, there really isn't any proof of residency, you can have a utility bill in your name, but that doesn't prove that you live there. Why should homeless people, including those who have retired and travel and live in an RV, not be able to buy a firearm?
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Not to mention the fact that the ATF requires a state ID in order to buy and they accept the FLA
Federal law doesn't require a state ID.
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  #14  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
REALLY?

This is about California drivers licenses not be a tool to use for immigration status/proof of citizenship to the US. It has zero to do with residency. Illegal immigrants are "residents" in this state.

Not to mention the fact that the ATF requires a state ID in order to buy and they accept the FLA
Wait, what?

This whole post is about whether or not an FLA ID issued post 01/20/2018 can still be used to purchase ammunition or a firearm once these regs are adopted, and in short, by itself (without another form of identity) the answer is "no".

I guess this is what you're referring to in regards to a CA ID or Military ID + Orders being required. The last paragraph talks about proof of residency requirements for handguns, and it looks RV owners are SOL unless they lease property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOJ
As part of the DROS process, the purchaser must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the purchaser is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing the firearms dealer with documentation containing his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns must provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a driver license or other DMV-issued identification), and either (1) possess a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with their recently purchased handgun or (2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#3
IMHO, it's completely retarded that a U.S. Passport is not an acceptable proof of identity.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Wait, what?

This whole post is about whether or not an FLA ID issued post 01/20/2018 can still be used to purchase ammunition or a firearm once these regs are adopted, and in short, by itself (without another form of identity) the answer is "no".

I guess this is what you're referring to in regards to a CA ID or Military ID + Orders being required. The last paragraph talks about proof of residency requirements for handguns, and it looks RV owners are SOL unless they lease property.



IMHO, it's completely retarded that a U.S. Passport is not an acceptable proof of identity.
Question for you. If someone comes in to purchase a firearm and they are a green card holder, what do you do?

Their FLA license is fine as long as they show you their valid green card.

DOJ just upped the ante on citizens in this regard. You can go get a "real ID" or use your FLA license plus proof of citizenship. That would be a passport, birth certificate, or any of the other stuff they listed.

For all intents and purpose, DOJ is making the purchaser prove their immigration status regardless. A real ID satifies this as well as an FLA with the other documentation they provided.

You need to see why the real ID is even in place to start your analysis on this issue. You seem to be missing why this is even happening.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post



IMHO, it's completely retarded that a U.S. Passport is not an acceptable proof of identity.
The DROS system is based off of using a persons CADL or CAID number. Currently, they seem to need this to run a background check except in the instance of a military ID. (i can only assume they contact the military for this)

Since CA DOJ does the background check, they may not have the ability to use the Secratary of State to verify
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Question for you. If someone comes in to purchase a firearm and they are a green card holder, what do you do?
Hasn't happened yet, but when it does, I'll either look it up, or call the DES Hotline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Their FLA license is fine as long as they show you their valid green card.

DOJ just upped the ante on citizens in this regard. You can go get a "real ID" or use your FLA license plus proof of citizenship. That would be a passport, birth certificate, or any of the other stuff they listed.

For all intents and purpose, DOJ is making the purchaser prove their immigration status regardless. A real ID satisfies this as well as an FLA with the other documentation they provided.
Right, I got that from the revised pending regs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
You need to see why the real ID is even in place to start your analysis on this issue. You seem to be missing why this is even happening.
I'm quite aware. This all started with CA wanting to issue a Driver's License to an illegal alien so they can purchase insurance (rather than break the law and drive without it. The Fed's one upped them and said fine you do that, and passed The Real ID Act of 2005.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
The DROS system is based off of using a persons CADL or CAID number. Currently, they seem to need this to run a background check except in the instance of a military ID. (i can only assume they contact the military for this)

Since CA DOJ does the background check, they may not have the ability to use the Secretary of State to verify
Perhaps. My understanding is the California wanted to a a Point Of Contact state so they could collect the money associated with it.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:21 PM
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Hasn't happened yet, but when it does, I'll either look it up, or call the DES Hotline.


Its simple. Citizen, yes or no. NO? see green card and type that number into the space provided. Done.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Federal law doesn't require a state ID.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what...sferee-firearm

Bingo.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:26 PM
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I read that too. It still doesn't make a differenct for us. Even in an ATF audit in CA it has to be a DL, ID or military orders since we have to go by the states rules on firearms
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Old 06-11-2019, 1:41 PM
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I read that too. It still doesn't make a differenct for us. Even in an ATF audit in CA it has to be a DL, ID or military orders since we have to go by the states rules on firearms
Yeah, but the point Kem was trying to make was that federally there are other acceptable ways to prove identity.
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Old 06-11-2019, 1:51 PM
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Yeah, but the point Kem was trying to make was that federally there are other acceptable ways to prove identity.
Yep and thats why i didn't say he was wrong. In the context of this thread though i was narrowing into KALIFORNIA.

An ATF auditor would know something was wrong if we put down anything but CADL, CAID or Military ID.

Roundeye was curious why CA won't just allow for the use of a passport. I'm simply stating that DROS isn't set up for it at all.
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Old 06-11-2019, 1:58 PM
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I said what I said because someone said it was an ATF requirement, which isn't the case. I will leave it for the reader to gp back and see who said that. :-)
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Old 06-11-2019, 2:09 PM
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I said what I said because someone said it was an ATF requirement, which isn't the case. I will leave it for the reader to gp back and see who said that. :-)
Overall yes but in CA it is an ATF requirment IF that is what is required in that individual state.

Not saying the state can't change the rules but a firearm tranfer must follow the rules of the state. (from my recent ATF audit, her explanation)
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Old 06-11-2019, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Overall yes but in CA it is an ATF requirment IF that is what is required in that individual state.



Not saying the state can't change the rules but a firearm tranfer must follow the rules of the state. (from my recent ATF audit, her explanation)
No, it is still a state requirement. IOIs need to refrain from speaking about state laws. While it is required that you follow state laws, it doesn't make anything else.
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Old 06-11-2019, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
No, it is still a state requirement. IOIs need to refrain from speaking about state laws. While it is required that you follow state laws, it doesn't make anything else.
Stay out of state law except for the fact that prior to being audited, the ATF auditor has all the information about our store and obtained it from CA DOJ.

Ya, really!

It is now almost like they are trying to audit for themselves and the state partially.

My conversation came up with one transaction where a LEO had ID that had all the information on it needed federally. To much to go into here.
An LEO with a temp CADL and his LEO ID which had everything but residency

Last edited by taperxz; 06-11-2019 at 2:20 PM..
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Old 06-11-2019, 2:51 PM
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Stay out of state law except for the fact that prior to being audited, the ATF auditor has all the information about our store and obtained it from CA DOJ.

Ya, really!

It is now almost like they are trying to audit for themselves and the state partially.

My conversation came up with one transaction where a LEO had ID that had all the information on it needed federally. To much to go into here.
An LEO with a temp CADL and his LEO ID which had everything but residency
Yes. they get the info from the CA DOJ, but that isn't getting involved in state law.

Yes, there is an issue with having a temp CA DL since it is specifically said that a paper license isn't acceptable. There is no Federal requirement for copying a document. So while an IOI might mention something about that, it is just a CA issue. You can't be written up for it by them, but if they notice, they could mention it to the CA DOJ.
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Old 06-11-2019, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes. they get the info from the CA DOJ, but that isn't getting involved in state law.

Yes, there is an issue with having a temp CA DL since it is specifically said that a paper license isn't acceptable. There is no Federal requirement for copying a document. So while an IOI might mention something about that, it is just a CA issue. You can't be written up for it by them, but if they notice, they could mention it to the CA DOJ.
No write up. Just an inquiry that was brought up using Fed law as a premise. Her reply was, its CA we look to make sure you are doing it right.
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Old 06-11-2019, 5:53 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
No write up. Just an inquiry that was brought up using Fed law as a premise. Her reply was, its CA we look to make sure you are doing it right.
Sounds like a bad IOI. Another FFL had an IOI who tried to go there, but she was wrong and didn't actually know what CA law actually is.
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Old 06-11-2019, 6:40 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Sounds like a bad IOI. Another FFL had an IOI who tried to go there, but she was wrong and didn't actually know what CA law actually is.
Ya. The auditor questioned us writing down a CA vehicle trailer reg as something that should only be used for CA DROS. I had to insist that it was there as a government issued document for the 4473 and it was done for the ATF as required. The auditor then wanted to inspect DROS to see a copy we took.
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