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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 77 8.11%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 641 67.54%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 21 2.21%
I paid too much for my Membership! 45 4.74%
They will go out of business this year! 22 2.32%
Don't want anything to do with them! 143 15.07%
Voters: 949. You may not vote on this poll

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  #7081  
Old 12-28-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Co Th G View Post
Thank you. Happy New Year to you too! I'm looking forward to a very active 2016!
The majority of your posts are about bad mouthing FS. You changed your icon to refer to FS. I assume this isn't a dupe account so you spend a significant amount of time being upset and trying to be witty. What is the real deal with you brother?

If you have a real beef with FS because they burned you in some way, I get it, it sucks, you're angry. However making immature jabs with every post does nothing to help your cause or your own emotional healing. If this is your reason, you're best off letting it go or sharing your personal bad experience with people in a matter-of-fact unemotional way. People will see it for what it is and take what you say seriously.

If all you're really trying to do is incite reactions from people here for giggles, brother you need help or some maturity. Go to Off-Topic to have your trolling fun. People in this forum/thread actually care about training, sharing stories, and having helping/relevant discussions.

So please, share what your real deal is. Serious question. I actually want to know.
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  #7082  
Old 12-28-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
The majority of your posts are about bad mouthing FS. You changed your icon to refer to FS. I assume this isn't a dupe account so you spend a significant amount of time being upset and trying to be witty. What is the real deal with you brother?

If you have a real beef with FS because they burned you in some way, I get it, it sucks, you're angry. However making immature jabs with every post does nothing to help your cause or your own emotional healing. If this is your reason, you're best off letting it go or sharing your personal bad experience with people in a matter-of-fact unemotional way. People will see it for what it is and take what you say seriously.

If all you're really trying to do is incite reactions from people here for giggles, brother you need help or some maturity. Go to Off-Topic to have your trolling fun. People in this forum/thread actually care about training, sharing stories, and having helping/relevant discussions.

So please, share what your real deal is. Serious question. I actually want to know.
http://www.doodieproject.com/index.p...eople/?p=85125
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  #7083  
Old 12-28-2015, 7:21 PM
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Yeah...I just love a thread full of potty mouthed know-it-alls. Some day they may realize that each cuss word lowers the credibility of their post by 50%.
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  #7084  
Old 12-29-2015, 8:51 AM
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Yeah...I just love a thread full of potty mouthed know-it-alls. Some day they may realize that each cuss word lowers the credibility of their post by 50%.
They are potty mouthed, but the average member of that forum could out shoot 99% of CalGuns.
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  #7085  
Old 12-29-2015, 9:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
They are potty mouthed, but the average member of that forum could out shoot 99% of CalGuns.
What is your basis for saying that?
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  #7086  
Old 12-29-2015, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
They are potty mouthed, but the average member of that forum could out shoot 99% of CalGuns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
What is your basis for saying that?
I think it's along the line of "just ask them!"
Or they'll wipe the floor with you from their mad skilz of Halo,COD and such.
The more I see Cothog's posts, the more I believe he is all of about 14 years of age and very fluent in computer/Internet trolling.
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  #7087  
Old 12-29-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
What is your basis for saying that?
Doodie Project is the forum run by Ben Stoeger, USPSA 5 time Production Nationals champion. The guys on there are mostly hardcore action pistol competitors.
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  #7088  
Old 12-29-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
Doodie Project is the forum run by Ben Stoeger, USPSA 5 time Production Nationals champion. The guys on there are mostly hardcore action pistol competitors.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I guess if Co Th G is going to advocate all his buddies coming to troll this thread, it might as well be them. It is just ashame they can't put their knowledge and skills to better use . . . oh well.
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Last edited by AAShooter; 12-29-2015 at 12:08 PM..
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  #7089  
Old 12-29-2015, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I guess if Co Th G is going to advocate all his buddies coming to troll this thread, it might as well be them. It is just ashame they can't put their knowledge and skills to better use . . . oh well.
I doubt that Co Th G (Cothog to me, as auto correct keeps pointing out)is even a shooter. Most shooters or hunters or whatever do not come and post so negatively without an actual grievance. If they have a greivance, they are more than happy to say it with detail.
Sure, as most of us have come to agree, FS's teachings are not the end all to be all, but is an excellent foundation for new shooters as the basics are well taught.
But, co th g's total posts have mostly been negative trolling posts generally at all things Frontsight.

Last edited by DSMeyer; 12-29-2015 at 3:41 PM..
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  #7090  
Old 12-29-2015, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Co Th G View Post
Weaver is not the professional way of shooting. Anytime I see someone shooting Weaver, they just scream newbie or FS brainwashed.
Well..
I'm not a FS member and likely never will be so I guess the last damn near 50 years of shooting means nothing and I'm still a newbie because I find Weaver to be more effective and comfortable for me.
I guess all those decades, practice, ammo and such (as well as actually being able to hit my target) are invalid because you don't like the Weaver stance.



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Originally Posted by Co Th G View Post
Thank you. Happy New Year to you too! I'm looking forward to a very active 2016!
Oh really....
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  #7091  
Old 12-29-2015, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DSMeyer View Post
I doubt that Co Th G (Cothog to me, as auto correct keeps pointing out)is even a shooter. Most shooters or hunters or whatever do not come an post so negatively without actual grievance. If the have a greivance they are more than happy to say it with detail.
Sure as most of us has come to agree, FS's teachings are not the end all to be all, but is an excellent foundation for new shooters as the basics are well taught.
But, co th g's total posts have mostly been negative trolling posts generally at all things Frontsight.
Many of his posts have be deleted from this thread and others for their trolling nature . . . good sport I guess.
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  #7092  
Old 12-29-2015, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
Doodie Project is the forum run by Ben Stoeger, USPSA 5 time Production Nationals champion. The guys on there are mostly hardcore action pistol competitors.
True. Doodie was started to air the dirty laundry of the competitive shooting world, but Doodie is an equal opportunity offender by bashing and trolling other firearms related sites, like this one. They even have a sub forum named "A Call to Troll" where members try to outdo each other by trolling other forums and internet sites.
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  #7093  
Old 12-29-2015, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I guess if Co Th G is going to advocate all his buddies coming to troll this thread, it might as well be them. It is just ashame they can't put their knowledge and skills to better use . . . oh well.
Agreed. They seem unusually bitter.
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  #7094  
Old 12-29-2015, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Well..
I'm not a FS member and likely never will be so I guess the last damn near 50 years of shooting means nothing and I'm still a newbie because I find Weaver to be more effective and comfortable for me.
I guess all those decades, practice, ammo and such (as well as actually being able to hit my target) are invalid because you don't like the Weaver stance.

What IDPA/USPSA rank did you reach shooting Weaver for 50 years?
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  #7095  
Old 12-29-2015, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Co Th G View Post
True. Doodie was started to air the dirty laundry of the competitive shooting world, but Doodie is an equal opportunity offender by bashing and trolling other firearms related sites, like this one. They even have a sub forum named "A Call to Troll" where members try to outdo each other by trolling other forums and internet sites.
Um, ok. This may be a free country but this house has rules. Read CG forum rule "c" regarding trolling.
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  #7096  
Old 12-29-2015, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Co Th G View Post
They even have a sub forum named "A Call to Troll" where members try to outdo each other by trolling other forums and internet sites.
Sounds like a great way to spend your energies. With friends like you, who needs Bradys and Bloombergs?
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  #7097  
Old 12-29-2015, 6:04 PM
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What IDPA/USPSA rank did you reach shooting Weaver for 50 years?
He may not have been a game boy.
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  #7098  
Old 12-29-2015, 7:06 PM
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Just got the postcard for this and was actually tempted by it BUT it all just seems like a ponzi scheme to me.
I got the e-mail offer and decided to buy one package at $300. I am still trying to figure out the catch because it seems to good to be true.

I just took the initial 4 day handgun course earlier this month. Had a great time and really enjoyed the experience, so I am now planning to take the next course, either the tactical handgun and/or the night handgun course. I can now take these courses "for free" as part of the package. I think the only risk is if the school happens to go out of business before I take the next courses. Although, since the course I did take was free (plus the $50 background), I feel like if I did lose the $300, I still got my monies worth.

I will probably give away the free classes and memberships included in this offer to friends and family.
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  #7099  
Old 12-29-2015, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
What IDPA/USPSA rank did you reach shooting Weaver for 50 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
He may not have been a game boy.
This is what is sad, people confusing competition shooting with training or guys that just go out and shoot crap up. Your going to have phenomenal shooters from each category.
Now I'm a relatively new convert to ISO stance for pistol, but I first learned using weaver. Weaver came really easy because that is how I natually shot rifles and shotguns since I was a kid. I recently converted only because I started going to a few local idpa matches and was doing OK for a new guy, but was lagging behind my buddy on follow up shots and such, this is where I can literally feel the ISO stance/grip is faster. I have yet to qualify, but looking foreword for personal gratification mostly.
One thing I have noticed in the classes I have taken at FS as well as other schools is that they'll as you to try their way and if it doesn't work for you, no biggie use your way as long as you can hit your target to their expectations.
Like others have said, each stance has their benifits and faults. Wouldn't it be prudent to be familiar with both?
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Last edited by DSMeyer; 12-29-2015 at 7:21 PM..
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  #7100  
Old 12-29-2015, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 26.2madness View Post
I got the e-mail offer and decided to buy one package at $300. I am still trying to figure out the catch because it seems to good to be true.

I picked up two packages as well last week. I've already received my voucher for the FMK 9c in the mail, and sent it back in with the FFL info. I was surprised at how fast It arrived, given what I've read from reports of long processing times. Now the wait for the gun begins...


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  #7101  
Old 12-29-2015, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 26.2madness View Post
I got the e-mail offer and decided to buy one package at $300. I am still trying to figure out the catch because it seems to good to be true.

I will probably give away the free classes and memberships included in this offer to friends and family.
This is what he wants. People like you (and me) to do his marketing for him.
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  #7102  
Old 12-29-2015, 7:42 PM
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Seems to be working pretty well.


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  #7103  
Old 12-29-2015, 8:13 PM
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This is what he wants. People like you (and me) to do his marketing for him.
To be honest, I was already planning to send my wife to FS, and recommending the school to some friends of mine before I even knew about this offer. He was already getting free marketing from me.
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  #7104  
Old 12-29-2015, 8:30 PM
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To be honest, I was already planning to send my wife to FS, and recommending the school to some friends of mine before I even knew about this offer. He was already getting free marketing from me.
I would stick to Marathons and attending FS, don't market for him. he will never leave you alone.

I did see a guy passin out FS cards saying he was an ambassador! I was laughing so hard I almost peed myself. he had all these guys at a place of employment thinking he was some bad ***! too freaking funny. we should start a FS fraud thread, or maybe the best mustache thread. attend FS and don't get caught up into any membership crap. Diamond is fine!
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  #7105  
Old 12-29-2015, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 26.2madness View Post
I got the e-mail offer and decided to buy one package at $300. I am still trying to figure out the catch because it seems to good to be true.

<snip>

I can now take these courses "for free" as part of the package. I think the only risk is if the school happens to go out of business before I take the next courses. Although, since the course I did take was free (plus the $50 background), I feel like if I did lose the $300, I still got my monies worth.

I will probably give away the free classes and memberships included in this offer to friends and family.
If you find value in the deal, good for you BUT you could have bought a Diamond Membership from almost anyone here for $75 (and maybe less; I got mine for $75) and gotten free lifetime classes that way. You wouldn't get the $300 in FS credits, the free class, rental or UZI shoot certs but then you would have "saved" $225.

Did the offer include doubling the credits, etc for just 1 offer or did you have to buy 2 offers for $600 to get that? I can't check because I threw the postcard away and didn't bookmark the "deal" page.

Don't think you get the full benefit of the deal unless you buy at least 2, so that you can get the gun, which is worth $410 retail plus the $600 FS credits, and the doubling all of the free course, gun rental and Uzi certs. So, if you already bought 1, I'd actually recommend you buy 2, so that you can get the gun and more credits and certs.

If you do this, you'd at least get $485 in FMV ($410 for the gun and $75 for the Diamond Membership) and if you use $150 of the $600 FS credits for background checks for 3 years, you'll already be ahead by $35. That would leave you with $450 in FS credits and all of the free course, gun rental and Uzi certs for nothing and anything you get for them by using the rentals or Uzi shoots, or $ by selling them (unlikely) or goodwill by giving them away, would put you well ahead.

I think that's the ONLY way that you can ever come out "ahead" with this newest Great Deal.
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Last edited by sgt1372; 12-29-2015 at 9:33 PM..
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  #7106  
Old 12-29-2015, 9:49 PM
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This is what he wants. People like you (and me) to do his marketing for him.
Actually our participation in upgrades helps keep the doors open and the classes running. Many people think it's a ponzi scheme and it may well be so... but seriously let's consider what you get for that $300 (or in some peoples case $75). Lifetime ability to get decent firearm training on a multitude of platforms (rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc...)

I for one do not regret spending $500 for my membership or the extra $300 to upgrade to Guardian status. I've attended three classes so far and have enjoyed the heck out of them.

Consider this... If everyone simply took those $75 Diamond Memberships and never upgraded then we would all be looking at a closed gate and would all lose out...

IMHO, sometimes it's useful to play along with the "game" to allow everyone to continue to enjoy the benefits.
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  #7107  
Old 12-29-2015, 11:38 PM
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DSMEYER. Competition is not tactical training. But it does allow a person to compare and evaluate their shooting skills level against a bunch of other shooters. They may find that they are very good or they may see that they aren't as good as they thought. But they will have a pretty good idea of where they stand.

Then you have the much larger number of shooters who go to the range and practice, maybe with a couple of buddies who don't shoot as much as they do. So in their group they are considered the "gun guy-expert". Then they will come to the conclusion that their techniques and methods "works for me" without much to compare to.

There is the small group of people who regularly go to training classes (most have nowhere to really do the practice that would follow up their training). Some of them become very good shooters. When in their classes they get a chance to see other shooters and how they stack up compared to them. Mark
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  #7108  
Old 12-29-2015, 11:39 PM
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DUP.

Last edited by SG29736; 12-29-2015 at 11:47 PM.. Reason: duplicate
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  #7109  
Old 12-30-2015, 5:41 AM
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Actually our participation in upgrades helps keep the doors open and the classes running. Many people think it's a ponzi scheme and it may well be so... but seriously let's consider what you get for that $300 (or in some peoples case $75). Lifetime ability to get decent firearm training on a multitude of platforms (rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc...)

I for one do not regret spending $500 for my membership or the extra $300 to upgrade to Guardian status. I've attended three classes so far and have enjoyed the heck out of them.

Consider this... If everyone simply took those $75 Diamond Memberships and never upgraded then we would all be looking at a closed gate and would all lose out...

IMHO, sometimes it's useful to play along with the "game" to allow everyone to continue to enjoy the benefits.
that's the problem, you continue to upgrade your membership for what? to get credits that he will slowly take away once he realizes that he is loosing money? Piazza is like a zebra, they don't loose their stripes...

there is no reason to upgrade past a diamond, get one for 75 bucks and all the money saved use it for Uzi, which used to be free! for back ground checks etc.. there is no real benefit. you just keep funding the panzi scheme. I laugh at how many fall for the sky is falling cries from his incredible marketing schemes. don't fall for it!

get a membership, use the heck out of it and get some good training, then you will max out and then have to move on. or do everything support side after you master what they can teach you. FS has to do a major overhaul for advance classes. they could make so much more and do much better training. anyone get to shoot out of the cars recently? get to do the run and gun from the ATM? Get to go do the tunnels with lights? etc. . all the perks that used to happen until he realized that the advance classes are an expense not a revenue source!
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  #7110  
Old 12-30-2015, 9:19 AM
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get a membership, use the heck out of it and get some good training, then you will max out and then have to move on. or do everything support side after you master what they can teach you. FS has to do a major overhaul for advance classes. they could make so much more and do much better training. anyone get to shoot out of the cars recently? get to do the run and gun from the ATM? Get to go do the tunnels with lights? etc. . all the perks that used to happen until he realized that the advance classes are an expense not a revenue source!
So let me get this straight... You are complaining because the old benefits are no longer available, but you don't see any value in upgrading your membership... Hmm...

Obviously you can feel however you want but I personally like the training and feel it's worth the money I have already spent. I say it's worth supporting the cause.
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  #7111  
Old 12-30-2015, 10:01 AM
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So let me get this straight... You are complaining because the old benefits are no longer available, but you don't see any value in upgrading your membership... Hmm...

Obviously you can feel however you want but I personally like the training and feel it's worth the money I have already spent. I say it's worth supporting the cause.
you misunderstood me. I only complain about how the new memberships give you no better benefit then the Diamond membership. free credits to a hotel that will never be built.

training is awesome for what you pay for. I am a big advocate for FS. but it will plateau, then you will need to seek out further training. I am not in the military so my extensive training is limited, plus my job keeps me busy.

and yes I will complain about my old benefits not being available. I guess some education for you is needed. the original Diamond was about 100 grand. he sold them to us for his final to the final, of that final that was his final final final to that final offer... for 7,000 bucks. but buy it now and get 2 Diamonds for 5000. so I was a fool and bought mine for over 5000 bucks.

and now a diamond that gives you all the same classes that you now get is what 200 bucks or less?

so yes it's annoying. as I said before what other benefits do you get to be a Guardian, Ambassador etc.. none. oh but you get credits.. ha ha ha we had so many credits never will use them. last time I did his cashier gave me their ending report receipt by accident and that was very telling.

he owed over 2.5 million dollars in credits! so guess what happened?... that'd right you can't use your credits now in the pro shop for crap! buy your ammo from a 3rd party, now the gunsmith is outside, etc.. he eliminated the pro shop. he was going to loose 2.5 million. wake up.
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  #7112  
Old 12-30-2015, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
What IDPA/USPSA rank did you reach shooting Weaver for 50 years?
None, I don't shoot for scores or prizes.

My competition is me and the last time I shot, my goal is not a ranking by some organization it's to training and education, my focus is not on getting a trophy it's on getting smoother, faster and more accurate.

At this point in my life shooting for sport is starting to sound interesting but that's not why I shoot nor why I try to improve.

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He may not have been a game boy.
I was always more of a genesis person..
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  #7113  
Old 12-30-2015, 11:18 AM
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I did my first IDPA and from my FS training took 3rd overall. not bad for a first time. I laughed at all the guys there, it was scary to watch
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  #7114  
Old 12-30-2015, 12:02 PM
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What club? Link to scores? I'm thinking probably not. Was it even an actual IDPA match? Mark
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  #7115  
Old 12-30-2015, 12:08 PM
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What club? Link to scores? I'm thinking probably not. Was it even an actual IDPA match? Mark
lol, the fact that you even call me out is laughable. no need to prove what club, link, etc... yes it was an actual match, I even paid 35 bucks! can you believe that. I let my shooting do the talking, sorry you struggle at IDPA. maybe someone can offer a free 4 day handgun certificate for you. looks like you could use it.

even my dad who is 68 took 24th out of 62 guys. and the last time we shot handguns was at FS... several months ago. we focus more on ELR
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  #7116  
Old 12-30-2015, 12:15 PM
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I hate my phone. Or is it this website. Sorry about the duplicate posts. Tried to delete. What a pain. Mark
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  #7117  
Old 12-30-2015, 12:24 PM
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I hate my phone. Or is it this website. Sorry about the duplicate posts. Tried to delete. What a pain. Mark
my wife's phones does that too when she sends me text messages. she has an iPhone. .. I stick to Android
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  #7118  
Old 12-30-2015, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
None, I don't shoot for scores or prizes.

My competition is me and the last time I shot, my goal is not a ranking by some organization it's to training and education, my focus is not on getting a trophy it's on getting smoother, faster and more accurate.

At this point in my life shooting for sport is starting to sound interesting but that's not why I shoot nor why I try to improve.
Yeah, the thought of competition scares a lot of people. It's humbling for most and takes people out of their comfort zone.

I wonder how good of a boxer someone could become if they never entered a ring with an opponent, and just punched a bag for 50 years?
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Old 12-30-2015, 4:02 PM
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Yeah, the thought of competition scares a lot of people. It's humbling for most and takes people out of their comfort zone.

I wonder how good of a boxer someone could become if they never entered a ring with an opponent, and just punched a bag for 50 years?
I am not sure your comparison really works. A lot depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are talking about real gunfighting (on the street or in war), competitive shooting may help you develop some skills but may build some very detrimental skills. I know many people that don't USPSA exactly for that reason. I guess one could just write it off to fear of competition.

I had the opportunity to take a Handgun Combat Master Prep class with a USPSA Grand Master (not sure what category). He shot fine but nothing that impressive. Certainly, his "Grand Master" skills were not overwhelming the rest of the class. Maybe he was just having a bad day but he didn't just seem to take his gaming skills and apply them well to that test. I wouldn't expect HCMs to be able to walk into a USPSA match and dominate it either.
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Last edited by AAShooter; 12-30-2015 at 4:26 PM..
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  #7120  
Old 12-30-2015, 4:33 PM
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Yeah, the thought of competition scares a lot of people. It's humbling for most and takes people out of their comfort zone.
What exactly did I type that makes you think my lack of interest in games is due to fear?
Pretty presumptuous of you isn't it?


I wonder how good of a boxer someone could become if they never entered a ring with an opponent, and just punched a bag for 50 years?
I take you assume that games and playing around are sufficient benchmarks.
You do realize that all those sports are exactly that, just games right?

My goals in the shooting sports are not getting a trophy or pretty ribbon that says someone thinks I'm okay, I don't need someone else's validation.
My goals are to be able to defend and protect my family and myself and go home unscathed and that has nothing to do with score totals or patches on my shirt.
Shooting to me isn't a sport it's a martial art, it's about action, reaction, will, aggression, violence of action and being able to use my tools in a manner that is most effective to prevent anyone from harming me and mine. That might mean knowing how to quickly retreat to create distance for a clean shot or it might mean stepping in to an opponent and firing at contact range. Whatever the situation dictates.

Let's try it this way, maybe you'll get it.
I know quite a few people who excel at Kendo, yes they have the ribbons, patches and trophies you covet.
I also know from experience that when we free spar I can take them with regularity.
Why? Because while they are trained and skilled at Kendo my experience is in Kenjitsu. The difference between sport/games training and training in a combat art is what counts when you're not fighting with a set of rules or on a set course.

Am I saying I am better than someone who competes, not necessarily.
I am saying I train and practice in a different manner for a different purpose.

Falling back to the Kendo/Kenjitsu analogy I'd likely get my butt kicked in a structured Kendo match. However when the fight becomes one that is inside arm's reach and someone grabbing your quillions to force an opening, well that's where things would be different.
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Last edited by Kestryll; 12-30-2015 at 4:39 PM..
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