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  #1  
Old 08-08-2022, 8:46 AM
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Default U.S. Fish & Wildlife proposes immediate phaseout of lead ammunition

Proposed for national wildlife refuges now, but here they come......

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The FWS's annual rulemaking usually benefits hunters and anglers by opening new species, acres, and hours on National Wildlife Refuges. But this yearís proposal includes an entirely unwelcome aspect: the immediate restriction or phaseout of the use of lead ammunition on National Wildlife Refuges.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/an...fe3a21221a7bd3
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:03 AM
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It was never about Condors.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:33 AM
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For waterfowl it was about lead as mortality factor. A lot the shot landing in ponds was being ingested by ducks and that killed a lot of ducks and geese back then.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:37 AM
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It was never about Condors.
BINGO!
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Old 08-08-2022, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
For waterfowl it was about lead as mortality factor. A lot the shot landing in ponds was being ingested by ducks and that killed a lot of ducks and geese back then.
Please link to some legitimate studies on the topic.
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Old 08-08-2022, 3:50 PM
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Before you were born. Look up lead as a mortality factor in waterfowl. Study was in 60s in Illinois. Lead to bannng of lead for waterfowl hunting. FC Bellrose published first paper on it in 1961. Was later expanded with studies and samples taken from waterfowl and some ponds on refuges were sifted for lead to determine quantity per acre. I wrote a study on Kern refuge for 1968 as to how many shells fired average per hunter and loads used, It was staggering how much lead shot was deposited then.

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Old 08-08-2022, 5:07 PM
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It's been being phased out for a few years now.
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Old 08-08-2022, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
For waterfowl it was about lead as mortality factor. A lot the shot landing in ponds was being ingested by ducks and that killed a lot of ducks and geese back then.
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Before you were born. Look up lead as a mortality factor in waterfowl. Study was in 60s in Illinois. Lead to bannng of lead for waterfowl hunting. FC Bellrose published first paper on it in 1961. Was later expanded with studies and samples taken from waterfowl and some ponds on refuges were sifted for lead to determine quantity per acre. I wrote a study on Kern refuge for 1968 as to how many shells fired average per hunter and loads used, It was staggering how much lead shot was deposited then.
^^^ Hmmm, lead flavored Kool-Aid ^^^

Who'da thought.
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Old 08-09-2022, 5:35 AM
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Nothing new here. This was already underway until the Trump adminstration reversed the policy. Now it is back.
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Old 08-09-2022, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeepergeo View Post
Please link to some legitimate studies on the topic.
You're going to need access to scientific journals:

here's a good start, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9732484/ then follow through the "similar articles" and the "cited by" stuff.

Waterfowl were being killed by lead poisoning originating as lead shot from hunters because as they foraged they brought lead into their gizzards where it was ground up and more easily made its way into their bloodstream. This wasn't ingesting and passing large chunks of elemental lead. Lead pellets were being picked up as part of their need for grit and ground up in the crop after being bathed in acid from the glandular stomach. There's no doubt lead poisoning from lead shot was killing waterfowl around the world.

Big game though... There is still a correlation between elevated blood lead levels of carrion eating birds and hunting season. Most papers have been quick to dismiss it as birds ingesting lead fragments in offal from big game. Without the smoking gun of lead pellets in a crop it's hard to say where that lead is coming from. One paper often cited by CA as part of the reason for the lead ban in the condor range did analysis of lead isotopes found in blood lead of lead poisoned condors and lead isotopes in common ammunition, finding they were the same. Of course there was no mention that the ammunition was not the exclusive source of that lead isotope.
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Old 08-09-2022, 9:15 AM
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I find it very interesting the condors are still getting lead poisoning even though lead free bullets have been required to hunt for years now.
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Old 08-09-2022, 9:43 AM
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I find it very interesting the condors are still getting lead poisoning even though lead free bullets have been required to hunt for years now.
That has, of course, been blamed on not having the lead ban extend far enough beyond CA. The idea being that individual condors have a wide range throughout the southwest and are not confined to the 'condor zone'.

I think CA missed an opportunity to do some actual science when we started the statewide ban on lead. We could have done a total lead projectile ban in the condor zone and monitored compliance along with the blood lead levels of carrion eating animals within the condor zone to see if they still exhibited the yearly increase coincident with hunting season. My suspicion was that shot and lost small game was accounting for at least some of that; but that is discounted for condors (in theory at least) because they preferentially eat large game carrion. We missed that boat however.

That said, high concentrations of lead shot in areas where birds actively pick up gravel (like near watering holes in dove fields) could be problematic for game birds.

I still think there is science that can be done regarding big game. Creating a special hunt in a lead bullet hunting area requiring hunters to pack out the lungs, heart, and liver while testing the blood lead levels of carrion eating animals in such area would be interesting.
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Old 08-09-2022, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by krypto99 View Post
I find it very interesting the condors are still getting lead poisoning even though lead free bullets have been required to hunt for years now.
I am not surprised at all. I do not believe most people on private property are using lead free ammo. The majority of people I talk to still use lead .22 lr ammo for squirrels. Of course, they leave the squirrels where they drop for scavengers to find.
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Old 08-09-2022, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Before you were born. Look up lead as a mortality factor in waterfowl. Study was in 60s in Illinois. Lead to bannng of lead for waterfowl hunting. FC Bellrose published first paper on it in 1961. Was later expanded with studies and samples taken from waterfowl and some ponds on refuges were sifted for lead to determine quantity per acre. I wrote a study on Kern refuge for 1968 as to how many shells fired average per hunter and loads used, It was staggering how much lead shot was deposited then.
Where is the study that shows how many birds are wounded and later died from steel? Being an avid Ducker, I am pretty sure the numbers are similar! But nobody wants to talk about that.
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Old 08-09-2022, 8:01 PM
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Where is the study that shows how many birds are wounded and later died from steel? Being an avid Ducker, I am pretty sure the numbers are similar! But nobody wants to talk about that.
One of the studies I linked had those numbers, probably start there.

I don't remember what it was exactly but the estimate was something like 2,000,000 dying from lead poisoning vs. 500,000 dying because they were wounded and not recovered.

I don't remember the numbers, they're in the paper (along with the method of counting, estimating, and the statistics and statistical analysis used to come up with such numbers). I would encourage you to pull the article and decide for yourself if their method is sound so you don't have to depend on random people making arguments you may or may not like.
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Old 08-09-2022, 8:43 PM
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I am not surprised at all. I do not believe most people on private property are using lead free ammo. The majority of people I talk to still use lead .22 lr ammo for squirrels. Of course, they leave the squirrels where they drop for scavengers to find.
Iíve been shooting squeals for the better part of 25 years and I have yet to find a single dead ground squirrel left in-the field for scavengers they are cannibals and instantly drag them back in the holes for
Snack time .
It is so incredibly obvious you have no clue about anything hunting or fishing related every single post in this sub is you popping off you pie hole with liberal nonsense give it a rest
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Old 08-10-2022, 5:44 AM
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Iíve been shooting squeals for the better part of 25 years and I have yet to find a single dead ground squirrel left in-the field for scavengers they are cannibals and instantly drag them back in the holes for
Snack time .
It is so incredibly obvious you have no clue about anything hunting or fishing related every single post in this sub is you popping off you pie hole with liberal nonsense give it a rest
Once again, you attack someone with an opinion which is different from yours. Who is acting like a cancel culture liberal?

I was not spreading any " liberal nonsense". I simply said I believed (from personal observation) that compliance with the lead ammo ban was high in the places easily checked by wardens and lower in the areas where they have limited access/presence.

I will also agree with you that squirrels are canibalistic and do gladly accept a meal of a dead sibling. But they don't get them all and that doesn't account for all gut piles on private property.
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Old 08-10-2022, 9:19 AM
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Once again, you attack someone with an opinion which is different from yours. Who is acting like a cancel culture liberal?

I was not spreading any " liberal nonsense". I simply said I believed (from personal observation) that compliance with the lead ammo ban was high in the places easily checked by wardens and lower in the areas where they have limited access/presence.

I will also agree with you that squirrels are canibalistic and do gladly accept a meal of a dead sibling. But they don't get them all and that doesn't account for all gut piles on private property.
No Iím simply calling out your anti - hunting cynicism once again. Lead bullets have so little soluble lead in them that itís wildly obvious it was NOT the source of the poisoning of quite possibly the most useless bird left in existence. Bullets leave minuscule trace soluble lead compared to other sources .. look it up and educate yourself we all need to be a on the same side
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Old 08-11-2022, 6:08 AM
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Fish must also be getting lead poisoning from lead weights in water.....

DFG is not your friend. They actively try to make it as burdensome as possible to be an outdoorsman.
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Old 08-11-2022, 6:24 AM
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https://www.iheart.com/podcast/867-m...share&pr=false

Meet eater just did a interesting podcast on lead and condors. The researchers still hunt with lead out of state and also advised against the lead ban. AZ has a better lead free program that actually works apparently.
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Old 08-11-2022, 6:30 AM
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Soooooooo, copper jacket stainless steel boat tails ?

Don' want any rusty projectiles out there. don't want anyone to get tetanus..

Or do we ?
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Old 08-11-2022, 3:45 PM
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I think this would be received better if half the refuges went lead free and half continued to allow lead and then study lead levels in various animals, soil, water, plants, etc. every year for 5-10 years and tell us if it makes a difference. Could the Feds be trusted to play it straight?

I think the environmental lead is from industry and not from projectiles, but I am willing to study it honestly.
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Old 08-11-2022, 7:36 PM
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I think this would be received better if half the refuges went lead free and half continued to allow lead and then study lead levels in various animals, soil, water, plants, etc. every year for 5-10 years and tell us if it makes a difference. Could the Feds be trusted to play it straight?

I think the environmental lead is from industry and not from projectiles, but I am willing to study it honestly.
Lead and most all hazardous substances are divided in to soluble and insoluble forms . Bullets , fishing weights are insoluble/ lead paint , lead oxide , leaded gas = soluble Ö same thing with merucury Ö we were all taught as kids that if you broke A thermometer the mercury would kill you Ö WRONG ! Mercury vapor bad, soluble mercury in water bad . Mercury in a flask Ö not bad .
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Old 08-11-2022, 8:07 PM
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Condors or no condors. Accept the fact that lead is history.
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Old 09-10-2022, 1:17 AM
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What can you shoot with lead on fed refuges currently?
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Old 09-10-2022, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
You're going to need access to scientific journals:

here's a good start, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9732484/ then follow through the "similar articles" and the "cited by" stuff.

Waterfowl were being killed by lead poisoning originating as lead shot from hunters because as they foraged they brought lead into their gizzards where it was ground up and more easily made its way into their bloodstream. This wasn't ingesting and passing large chunks of elemental lead. Lead pellets were being picked up as part of their need for grit and ground up in the crop after being bathed in acid from the glandular stomach. There's no doubt lead poisoning from lead shot was killing waterfowl around the world.

Big game though... There is still a correlation between elevated blood lead levels of carrion eating birds and hunting season. Most papers have been quick to dismiss it as birds ingesting lead fragments in offal from big game. Without the smoking gun of lead pellets in a crop it's hard to say where that lead is coming from. One paper often cited by CA as part of the reason for the lead ban in the condor range did analysis of lead isotopes found in blood lead of lead poisoned condors and lead isotopes in common ammunition, finding they were the same. Of course there was no mention that the ammunition was not the exclusive source of that lead isotope.
Elemental and isotopic studies to determine a source have since been debunked.

http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/...lead-analysis/
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Old 09-10-2022, 1:31 AM
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^^ In Ca nothing
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Old 09-10-2022, 12:00 PM
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Elemental and isotopic studies to determine a source have since been debunked.

http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/...lead-analysis/
Yes, the isotopic lead paper that in large part drove the lead ban in CA is crappy science (in more ways that one).

That said, blood lead levels of carrion eating birds still increases coincident with hunting season in states with no lead ban and I still feel California missed the boat on being able to do some real science by implementing this knee jerk total lead ban for hunting.
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Old 09-10-2022, 4:07 PM
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Fish must also be getting lead poisoning from lead weights in water.....

DFG is not your friend. They actively try to make it as burdensome as possible to be an outdoorsman.
You beat me to it Krypto.. banning lead weights is next. But itís a tough sell to the well financed commercial fishing lobby.. I hope.
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Old 09-10-2022, 4:35 PM
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Yes, the isotopic lead paper that in large part drove the lead ban in CA is crappy science (in more ways that one).

That said, blood lead levels of carrion eating birds still increases coincident with hunting season in states with no lead ban and I still feel California missed the boat on being able to do some real science by implementing this knee jerk total lead ban for hunting.
Are these lead levels in other scavengers problematic?
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Old 09-10-2022, 7:54 PM
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Are these lead levels in other scavengers problematic?
edit: rereading your question... No one ever said these blood lead levels were problematic. These papers simply found elevated blood lead levels in birds coincident with the hunting season.

I've not seen research that included other scavengers, I've also not sought it out. What I have seen is at least two different papers showing an elevation in blood lead levels; one for corvids coincident with the hunting season, and another showing elevated blood lead levels in (I think, been a while since I read them) eagles coincident with the hunting season. Neither paper sampled in California.

It is enough to make me curious about a possible correlation and wanting to see more research on the what the possible causation is. I have my own theories (mostly revolving around lead shot as opposed to lead bullets for big game).

From a personal standpoint, I feel lead kills better than copper; but I also don't want to ingest lead or feed lead to my dog so I avoid eating (or feeding to my dog) the offal of big game animals I shoot with lead (and so currently shoot copper even out of state, though maybe not this year).
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