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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #401  
Old 09-07-2019, 7:58 PM
Xeng Xeng is offline
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

Nvm got it!

Last edited by Xeng; 09-07-2019 at 8:11 PM..
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  #402  
Old 09-14-2019, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthikon View Post
What about Long Beach and John Wayne?
A search of the Web site for Long Beach Airport didn't have any hits for weapons. Likewise, Long Beach Municipal Code (City of Long Beach owns and operates LGB). So, would it be incorrect to assume that Los Angeles County Law (which does not prohibit CCW in non-sterile areas of LAX) is also operational in non-sterile areas of LGB?

John Wayne Airport (SNA) is owned and operated by Orange County, and county code prohibits weapons on the airport property. I also called the OCSD station at John Wayne and was told the same. The relevant section of the code states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Municipal Code
Sec. 2-1-53. - Rules of conduct.
[...]
(i) No person, except peace officers, an authorized post office or Airport employee or a member of the armed forces of the United States on official duty, shall carry any weapon, explosive or flammable material on or about his person, openly or concealed, on the Airport without the written permission of the Airport Director. This Section shall not apply to persons carrying firearms in cases, broken down or unloaded when said firearms are being transported by air. For the purposes of this section, a weapon includes all those listed in California Penal Code Sections 12000-12654.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vocoder View Post
I've carried when picking up/dropping off at John Wayne several times in the last few months and haven't had any concerns.
Because concealed is concealed, right?

I'm not a lawyer, and I just want to use my CCW permit within the limits of the law, but in a different thread-- I can't recall, but it may have been peeled off from this thread-- the OP contains an indirect link to a legal brief which cites a couple of decisions:
  • Great Western Shows, Inc., v. County of Los Angeles, (2002) 27 Cal.4th 853 [no preemption of ordinance banning gun and ammunition sales on county property];
  • Nordyke v. King (2002) 27 Cal.4th 875 [no preemption of an ordinance banning possession of a firearm on specified county property]
I would be delighted if some of the lawyers here on CG would weigh in and explain this to me like I was five years old, but as I understand it, though state law trumps county/municipal code in general (meaning, counties and municipalities can't have more restrictive statutes than state law, unless state law provides specific latitude for them to do so), and a CCW is an exemption to State Penal Code, case law can inform/limit where a CCW applies. So the case law cited above is why Orange County can prohibit CCW by non-LEOs on John Wayne Airport Property, and on other county properties, as they wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orthikon View Post
On another note, I saw this sign posted at Craig Regional Park in Fullerton.

Penalty seems to be a fine or eviction, any repercussions to CCW license?
Again, not a lawyer, so I could be quite wrong, but Craig Park is a county park, and so I would think county law applies. County law says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCCO
Sec. 2-5-237. - Firearms, weapons, fireworks, replica firearms.

No person shall have any fireworks, firearms, replica firearms, air gun, BB gun, paint ball gun, slingshot or bow or hunting arrow or any weapon in his possession or in his vehicle, other than in a closed trunk, storage compartment or other area separated from the passenger section of the vehicle, in a designated park, nor shall any person discharge any firearm, fireworks or weapon or display any replica firearm upon or into any designated park.
(Ord. No. 99-22, § 1, 8-31-99)
However, elsewhere on CG it has been stated it is legal for CCW permit holders to carry in county parks. I did ask a lawyer about this, and the gist of what I was told was, consider the big picture and the underlying facts. If you are a CCW permit holder, carrying in/on a county park, and have the unfortunate experience of having to legitimately use your concealed firearm (a "good" shoot), the DA will almost certainly be uninterested in charging you with any violation. However, if you have a bad shoot, the firearm violation will be the least of your concerns. Between those two extremes, concealed is concealed, so it would seem in Orange County, this sign can be ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post

Well, there's cgf v San Mateo County - see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=490930
San Mateo County is San Mateo County, and even with that ruling, the lawyer said that "it is an unpublished opinion, and deals exclusively with the demurer. While the 9th opined on preemption, it leaves the case open for further challenges. Secondly, this was a case seeking declaratory relief. Not a case with a defendant asserting an affirmative defense of preemption."

Now, the reason I came back to this thread was because I was curious about carry in a city park. So again-- I welcome lawyers here on CG to clarify-- as I understand it, my CCW, an exemption to the State Penal Code, trumps local ordinances, in the absence of case law that says otherwise. But as others have observed, this is a grey area, so I am thinking to err on the side of caution, and reluctantly leave my firearm at home, safely locked up.
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  #403  
Old 09-14-2019, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post

Now, the reason I came back to this thread was because I was curious about carry in a city park. So again-- I welcome lawyers here on CG to clarify-- as I understand it, my CCW, an exemption to the State Penal Code, trumps local ordinances, in the absence of case law that says otherwise.

But as others have observed
, this is a grey area, so I am thinking to err on the side of caution, and reluctantly leave my firearm at home, safely locked up.
No, so far as has been challenged, CCW does NOT trump local laws. You're aware of San Mateo; if Gene Hoffman, a relatively wealthy and usually well-advised legal consumer, did not pursue that case, I'll suggest he and his lawyers did not see success at the end.

You're free to create a test case in your jurisdiction; I would not expect a positive-to-you result, but that's why there are lawyers and test cases.
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  #404  
Old 09-15-2019, 6:34 AM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
Now, the reason I came back to this thread was because I was curious about carry in a city park. So again-- I welcome lawyers here on CG to clarify-- as I understand it, my CCW, an exemption to the State Penal Code, trumps local ordinances, in the absence of case law that says otherwise. But as others have observed, this is a grey area, so I am thinking to err on the side of caution, and reluctantly leave my firearm at home, safely locked up.
Looking for lawyers on this?

While no fan of the Gifford’s Center, they provide a detailed analysis of the basics of preemption and implied preemption of firearms laws here, including this on CalGuns v. County of San Mateo.
Quote:
In Calguns Foundation, Inc. v. County of San Mateo, 218 Cal. App. 4th 661 (Cal. Ct. App. 2013), the Court of Appeal rejected a preemption challenge to a San Mateo County ordinance prohibiting the possession and use of guns in the county’s parks and recreational areas. In reliance on Great Western and Nordyke the court found no conflict between the ordinance and state law, specifically, Penal Code section 26150 et seq. and Government Code section 53071. The court emphasized that the county ordinance, like the regulations in issue in those cases, was a land use restriction on county-owned property rather than a blanket prohibition on gun possession or use anywhere within the jurisdiction such as the San Francisco municipal ordinance found preempted in Fiscal.
And, if you wonder where their lawyers got that, here’s the Court of Appeal decision on CalGuns v. County of San Mateo.
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  #405  
Old 10-14-2019, 9:23 PM
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Default Sterile area of airport

Can someone please define? I understood it to be anywhere up to / behind TSA Security. I just took my '4 hr' CCW renewal class this week and was told this has changed - can't carry anywhere on airport property, even dropping off spouse at airport? Not sure if that is true...
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  #406  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMatt View Post
Can someone please define? I understood it to be anywhere up to / behind TSA Security. I just took my '4 hr' CCW renewal class this week and was told this has changed - can't carry anywhere on airport property, even dropping off spouse at airport? Not sure if that is true...
For John Wayne? No change to state law on the point.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


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