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  #1  
Old 02-24-2019, 1:29 PM
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Default Women pastors

Does God allow women to be pastors? Our church has an ordained woman pastor who's in charge of overseas missions. She preaches in front of the congregation 2-3 times a year. It doesn't bother me since she's not a
Senior pastor nor am I bothered by a woman pastor over the youth group. But when I see women TV evangelists, it rubs me the wrong way. But when I hear testimonials or seminars taught by women, doesn't bother me at all.

According to (1 Tim. 2:12) "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Yet I don't see this being applied today. Is this just a cultural thing or for that time specifically?

Let's discuss.
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Old 02-24-2019, 1:41 PM
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The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
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Old 02-24-2019, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
Not even pastor over children's ministry?
What about teaching men during bible-based seminars?
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Old 02-24-2019, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
^This.
1 Corinthians 14:34,35


Quote:
"1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version (KJV) 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
Quote:
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."


Quote:
"1 Timothy 2:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Pretty hard to argue./thread



also, that said, I've learned a lot about scriptures from Women at home, or their homes. Some of them know their book better than a lot of Brothers.
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:15 PM
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:29 PM
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Regarding women TV evangelists, # 1 post, Paula White is such a person and she lends heavy ( non $$ ) support to our current Prez, Mr Trump, prayed at his inaugural, the lady in the red dress. I an thankful and glad that she has supported him for some years and especially now. Take this for whatever you think about it.

As for women pastors, that is another matter, have met several in my time on earth, 75 yrs and have seen good and not so good results. Women pastors are not always women teaching men and women in church.

Psalm 1
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Red-Osier77 View Post
^This.
1 Corinthians 14:34,35

Pretty hard to argue./thread

also, that said, I've learned a lot about scriptures from Women at home, or their homes. Some of them know their book better than a lot of Brothers.
Not going to hear any sermons on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 these days. I'm a conservative Christian and that passage makes even me squirm.

Curious to hear it though.
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:48 PM
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Not going to hear any sermons on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 these days. I'm a conservative Christian and that passage makes even me squirm.

Curious to hear it though.
That's too bad, it's an all or nothing kinda deal.

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"2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,"
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:51 PM
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also, that said, I've learned a lot about scriptures from Women at home, or their homes. Some of them know their book better than a lot of Brothers.
Me too. I recall a bible study done by a pastor's wife 20 years ago on 2 Peter 1:5-8.
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:58 PM
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God, through His word, established important responsibilities to the church for both men and women. They aren’t completely the same responsibilities, but are equally important.


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Old 02-24-2019, 3:00 PM
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The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
Know any divorced and remarried Christians? Divorced and remarried yourself?
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)

Your wife cover her head when she prays?
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head..." 1 Corinthians 11:5

Carry a CCW? Ever been assaulted, sued, forced into labor, hit on by a bum, asked to loan money?
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.” (Matthew 5:38-42)
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Old 02-24-2019, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Does God allow women to be pastors? Our church has an ordained woman pastor who's in charge of overseas missions. She preaches in front of the congregation 2-3 times a year. It doesn't bother me since she's not a
Senior pastor nor am I bothered by a woman pastor over the youth group. But when I see women TV evangelists, it rubs me the wrong way. But when I hear testimonials or seminars taught by women, doesn't bother me at all.

According to (1 Tim. 2:12) "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Yet I don't see this being applied today. Is this just a cultural thing or for that time specifically?

Let's discuss.

God doesn't see the outside of the human, just the heart. I am such a worm that for me to say who can speak of God becomes foolishness. Paul and Timothy were humans, with fault, who wrote regarding the culture of their day in relation to women. Guess what, they may have been wrong. They were not God but spoke as humans beholding God with their own weaknesses and prejudices. Remember....Paul told us he had to die to self daily....meaning every moment he was tempted, took his eyes off of God and had to keep coming back for forgiveness/grace as he grew in trusting God. Don't worry about rules or what seems good in our human eyes, rather bow before God and shudder as to how far our hearts fall short of His character.
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Old 02-24-2019, 3:24 PM
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Context is king buddy. Ccw's aren't in the Bible and that quote has nothing to do with Jesus telling you to be a punching bag. No wiminz in the pulpit.
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Old 02-24-2019, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by psssniper View Post
Know any divorced and remarried Christians? Divorced and remarried yourself?
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
Divorce for the proper reason was allowed. That reason was adultery. AFAIK, there was no prohibition on the wronged spouse from remarrying in the Law. It was allowed. Deut.24:1,2.
Remember, God divorced His own people. Jer.3:8.

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Old 02-24-2019, 11:25 PM
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As with all scripture, this must be viewed with the proper context. Not just scriptural context, but also cultural and historic context.

The first thing to remember is that Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee. That means that he viewed the world from a Hebrew perspective that doesn't come naturally to most western readers. It also means that he was fully invested not only in the written Torah, but also the Talmudic interpretation of the Torah, which at this time had already decreed that men and women were to be separate during religious services, that women couldn't be teachers, and that they were below men in several important ways. This was, I believe, a gross misinterpretation of the relevant passages in the Torah.

The next important contextual consideration is the audience that he is writing to. While Paul is writing to Timothy, he is doing so in order to give instruction through Timothy to the Ephesians. This means that Paul was dealing with an entirely different set of cultural norms than he was used to. In the Mediterranean cultures of the time, it wasn't unusual for a woman who was more knowledgeable on a subject to instruct a man who was less knowledgeable. But because of his background as a Pharisee, this likely rankled Paul to some greater or lesser extent.

But while all of this offers context, it doesn't really answer the question. There are really only two factors that I feel need to be considered in answering this.
The first is what Paul writes at the beginning of his instructions, in 1 Timothy 2:8, "Therefore, it is my wish that..." Paul never shied away from saying when something was explicitly the will of God, but what he's doing here is explicitly stating that this is his will, and nothing more.
The second factor is God Himself. What do we know about Him? About His nature and His actions? God is a god of justice and equality, He is no respecter of persons, and He judges a person by their heart. Does that sound like a God that would place one person beneath another purely because of their sex? Didn't God raise up strong and godly women to powerful positions all throughout scripture? Didn't He Himself put Deborah in place as a prophet and as Judge over all of Israel?

In short, I think that the belief that God prohibits women as teachers or pastors is a somewhat knee-jerk response to the scripture without considering the other factors inherent to the scripture itself.
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Old 02-25-2019, 4:42 AM
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Some years ago I read an opinion piece about women as leaders in the church. The author's opinion was that letting women into the church as leaders and preachers would lead to other problems. Primarily acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual marriage in the church.
The author's rational was that this would be brought about due to the typical woman thing of "can't we all just get along", "God is love, and loves all, so they should be included".
I am not saying the author was correct. But, just some food for thought.
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Old 02-25-2019, 7:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Does God allow women to be pastors?
No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
According to (1 Tim. 2:12) "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
Correct.


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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Yet I don't see this being applied today.
Clearly, you don't get out much. http://lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099
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Old 02-25-2019, 8:34 AM
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No.


Correct.


Clearly, you don't get out much. http://lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099
That's a bold straight forward statement from the Missouri synod. Good job taking a stand.
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Old 02-25-2019, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Does God allow women to be pastors? Our church has an ordained woman pastor who's in charge of overseas missions. She preaches in front of the congregation 2-3 times a year. It doesn't bother me since she's not a
Senior pastor nor am I bothered by a woman pastor over the youth group. But when I see women TV evangelists, it rubs me the wrong way. But when I hear testimonials or seminars taught by women, doesn't bother me at all.

According to (1 Tim. 2:12) "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Yet I don't see this being applied today. Is this just a cultural thing or for that time specifically?

Let's discuss.
Does God allow it? Sometimes. And only some gods.

Did Paul allow it? Not likely. But he wasn't in charge of the church either. He gets a lot of credit and more than his fair share of "air time" in the Christian Bible. But he wasn't part of the core 12 at any point. He was an outsider with very different perspectives. Arguably, the original disciples were the ones responsible for getting Paul arrested & imprisoned. So we should take his points of view with a grain of salt. He may have been a minority opinion -- one to consider but hardly the gospel of Jesus himself.

That being said, Paul calls Phoebe a deacon. Women certainly served as deacons in the early church. Paul is not without a few contradictions -- as are all of us.

Did the Torah permit women to lead? Not usually. They were highly patriarchal -- much more than even other Semitic cultures. At least other Semites had female deities, consorts, etc. YHWH was a highly patriarchal dude -- strangely so.

Did Jesus allow it? Not really. But he certainly gave women more influence than his predecessors did. Mary Magdalene may have been more important than most of the 12. But she would have likely been pushed out after Jesus's death. There's no indication that she wanted power or tried to fight for prominence. The early church had enough trouble fighting for credibility & staving off persecution. I doubt they would have made feminism their hill to die on, assuming they were for equality at all.

There's a great book, THE MORAL VISION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that anybody who cares about ethical issues needs to read. While there may not be an explicit, "Let women rule!" commandment in the NT, there's plenty of hints that it's a good idea -- behavioral norms of Jesus, things he has said that would lead us to that conclusion, etc.

And if, like me, you're more pagan than Christian, then this is a no-brainer. Disallowing half the population from leadership in the community on the basis of genitalia alone is pretty stupid in my opinion.

I hate to say it but any culture that can't change with the times is dead or dying. I love the past and very reverent of tradition. Yet, I know that anything that lives and thrives, whether that be individuals or communities, adapts to its environment. Resisting change just means you're on your way out. Locking ourselves into rigid ideals may be rationally consistent. But today is for the living, not the dead.
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Old 02-25-2019, 9:24 AM
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Default Bingo on Women Preachers! The Elephant in the Room (Dalrock)

"There is a well loved refrain, especially among complementarians, that men need to “step up”. This is a deceptive phrase, because in reality the objective is to allow men to avoid what is difficult and uncomfortable. It is false bravado used to mask paralyzing fear. What is being avoided is addressing the feminist elephant in the middle of the room.

For example, over the past decades we have witnessed an explosion in out of wedlock births. Feminists have been entirely open about their desire to make single motherhood an attractive option for women, and after decades of social and legal “progress” 40% of all children are now born out of wedlock in the US.

For feminist Christians this isn’t a problem, as they can simply celebrate their victory while pushing for even more “progress”. But for complementarians and other conservative Christians, this poses a huge challenge. How can they appear to take biblical morality (and the welfare of innocent children) seriously while avoiding upsetting women in our thoroughly feminized culture? There is only one answer, no matter how absurd it is. The answer is to pretend that feminists aren’t really in the final mopping up stages in the culture war, and assert instead that what we are experiencing is a sudden and mysterious change in men. Here is how Glenn Stanton, the Director of Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family (FotF), explains the incredible increase we are seeing in out of wedlock births*: Women want to marry and have daddies for their babies. But if they can’t find good men to commit themselves to, well… Our most pressing social problem today is a man deficit."

The level of denial here is astonishing, and would be laughable if it weren’t entirely commonplace. Even more astounding, often times the denial of feminism is expressed using feminist terminology, and even includes calls to join feminists in their push to re order our society** . . .

As astonishing as the above two examples are, they merely scratch the surface. The pattern exists across complementarian/conservative Christian organizations, and across the full spectrum of issues where a Christian approach would offend feminists. In response to women demanding to be allowed to join all units of our armed forces (just as they have demanded in the civilian world), conservative Christians deny the very open feminist rebellion, and pretend instead that cowardly men are forcing brave women to serve in their place. Doug Phillips’ now defunct Vision Forum offers a perfect example with America the Barbarous: New Pentagon Policy Sanctions Women in Combat . . . "
Full article: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/0...ave-to-part-1/


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Originally Posted by Sailormilan2 View Post
Some years ago I read an opinion piece about women as leaders in the church. The author's opinion was that letting women into the church as leaders and preachers would lead to other problems. Primarily acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual marriage in the church.
The author's rational was that this would be brought about due to the typical woman thing of "can't we all just get along", "God is love, and loves all, so they should be included".
I am not saying the author was correct. But, just some food for thought.
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Old 02-25-2019, 9:26 AM
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Old 02-25-2019, 9:38 AM
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Not going to hear any sermons on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 these days. I'm a conservative Christian and that passage makes even me squirm.

Curious to hear it though.
That passage is in the context of prophecy and tongues. The speaking has to do with leading worship and these gifts.
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Old 02-25-2019, 9:52 AM
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To OP - per your original question - no, women are not allowed to be "pastors."

The relevant passages are in 1 Tim. 2 and 3:

First,

1 Ti2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Notice the key is "over a man." And, the argument is not cultural for that time but goes all the way back to the fall.

So, women can teach women and can teach children. The tough application is at what point do you stop them from teaching young men. *Most* (not all) stop having women Sunday School teachers after elementary school age. Each church has to decide how to apply this.

Notice 1 Tim 3, also:

1 Ti3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

You can also see some parallels in Titus 1. But, notice that Paul is very careful to specify male roles with masculine nouns and pronouns. But, notice in V.11 that women can be deacons. So, when you put 1 Tim. 2:11-15 together with 1 Tim 3, it is clear that there are different roles for men and women with Paul setting the context of 1 Tim. 3 by first covering women's roles 1 Tim. 2:11-15.

Before anyone starts attacking these passages, remember that the Trinity has roles - different responsibilities and submission within the Godhead! Christ had no problem repeatedly stating that He was sent by the Father and only did the Father's will.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:03 AM
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OP - CCWs are just fine per the Bible. We are told to submit to government and told that God has given the power of the sword (power of death) to government (Romans 13:1-5).

Ro13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.

Per the passage, the primary purpose of government is our protection. Notice "wrath" in v.4. Not the first reference in Romans.

Ro1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

"is revealed" is present tense. God's wrath is presently and continually (the core meaning of the Greek present tense) being carried out in the world today against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. In other words, God judges sin directly in our world today. One of those ways is through government - the power of the sword.

So, what's a CCW? It's government passing a law to extend its power of the sword to the citizens to increase its ability to protect people.

By the way, should a wife stay in a house where the husband beats her? No. Our government has laws to protect anyone from violence and we are to use them for our protection. The context of Matthew 5:38-40 is not about self-protection as provided by God through our laws.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:05 AM
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Just when I feel the need to sit down and spend a half hour writing a thorough response, Bill comes in and does it for me. Thanks bill


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Old 02-25-2019, 10:07 AM
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Just when I feel the need to sit down and spend a half hour writing a thorough response, Bill comes in and does it for me. Thanks bill


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Darn, I was waiting....seriously.

No offense Bill
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:53 AM
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"

For example, over the past decades we have witnessed an explosion in out of wedlock births. Feminists have been entirely open about their desire to make single motherhood an attractive option for women, and after decades of social and legal “progress” 40% of all children are now born out of wedlock in the US.

Full article: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/0...ave-to-part-1/
It hasn't been very long since women could divorce men without the husband's consent. Don't forget that these "out of wedlock" births also coincide with an increase in the divorce rate. While you may also see that as a bad thing, I'll put the two together and see an improvement in the overall family situation. The only thing worse than a kid raised without a dad is a kid raised with two parents who hate each other. If women suddenly get freedom to do as they please and then start divorcing men, I find fault with the men -- call it pent-up demand for divorce. Better to have happy single moms than unhappy but in-tact families.

All that to say that aspiring to an ideal, like a two-parent household, is noble. But if it keeps you from dealing with the reality that's right in front of you, then the rigid ideal causes more harm than help. I'm no Marine. But the phrase, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" seems like good advice for life. Women doing that in their families are more saintly to me than rigid fanatics (like Paul) and their advice for others with no skin in the game. We make our plans for life. Then we adapt them because life doesn't care about our plans.

Putting a more Biblical spin on things, if we were supposed to conform to rigid ideals, then Jesus was a total screw up. He broke so many rules that the pastors of his day (Rabbis & Priests) wanted him dead for fear that he would upset things too much. Oh, I'm sure they cited chapter and verse. But Jesus didn't care about chapter and verse so much as abiding by the central values that inspired those very verses to be written in the first place.

The Christian Church and its norms have undoubtedly changed over time -- to its credit. What started out as some obscure rebellious Jewish sect morphed into a global religion that looks nothing like itself in original form. It must continue to change or it will die. That's life.
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Old 02-26-2019, 10:54 PM
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Default Feminist excuses . . .

Your remarks smack of those of Pastor Chandler,
Pastor Chandler, President of the complementarian Acts 29 Network of churches, takes it a step further and offers a blanket statement on all possible areas a wife might be tempted into feminist rebellion. If a wife ever feels the temptation of feminist rebellion, it means her husband is oppressing her: Really, men, here is a great way to gauge how you’re serving, loving, and practicing your headship. If the most secularized feminist in the world showed up in your home and began to kind of coach your wife toward freedom and liberation from your tyranny, our wives should be so well cared for, so nourished, so sowed into and loved, they would say, “What you’re describing is actually tyranny. I love where I am. I am honored. I am encouraged. My man sacrifices so that I might grow in my gifts. He will oftentimes lay down his own desires in order to serve me more. My husband goes to bed tired at night. He pours in to our children. He encourages me. All that comes out of his mouth, sans a couple of little times here and there, is him building me up in love.”
Men, here is a good opportunity. If you’re like, “Well, gosh, I don’t think she would say that at all,” then, men, I think on the way home, you should probably repent and confess before the Lord to your wife.

More drivel like this,
While very few women in conservative Christian circles want to dress as men and serve in combat, nearly all of them have married or hope to marry. Not surprisingly, the same ridiculous gymnastics are used to deny the much more proximate mass rebellion against the biblical instruction to wives. If a wife is frigid and defrauds her husband, it is not a sin but a sign that God is angry with the husband (Pastor Dave Wilson, and Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr.). If a wife throws a tantrum in order to get her way, it is not rebellion but a form of submission called a Godly tantrum (Pastor Tim Keller, co-founder and vice president of The Gospel Coalition). If a wife is contentious, it is proof that her husband is not communicating enough (Dr. Clarke & FotF president Jim Daly) or loving her enough (Pastor Strauss). If a wife fornicated before marriage, it is her husband’s fault (Dr. Russell Moore).
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/0...ave-to-part-1/
What guy in his right mind would sit in the church and listen to these Manginas blame him for everything . . . Many wives seek to divorcerape their husbank$ then go back on the cock carousel. I suppose this is your definition of happy (ex) wives . . . they have plundered their husbanks via alimony and child support and would be unhappy if forced to be responsible and stay in the marriage and not throw their husbanks to the divorce lawyers. They get the gold, the husbank gets the shaft, and you approve of this!


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It hasn't been very long since women could divorce men without the husband's consent. Don't forget that these "out of wedlock" births also coincide with an increase in the divorce rate. While you may also see that as a bad thing, I'll put the two together and see an improvement in the overall family situation. The only thing worse than a kid raised without a dad is a kid raised with two parents who hate each other. If women suddenly get freedom to do as they please and then start divorcing men, I find fault with the men -- call it pent-up demand for divorce. Better to have happy single moms than unhappy but in-tact families.

All that to say that aspiring to an ideal, like a two-parent household, is noble. But if it keeps you from dealing with the reality that's right in front of you, then the rigid ideal causes more harm than help. I'm no Marine. But the phrase, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" seems like good advice for life. Women doing that in their families are more saintly to me than rigid fanatics (like Paul) and their advice for others with no skin in the game. We make our plans for life. Then we adapt them because life doesn't care about our plans.

Putting a more Biblical spin on things, if we were supposed to conform to rigid ideals, then Jesus was a total screw up. He broke so many rules that the pastors of his day (Rabbis & Priests) wanted him dead for fear that he would upset things too much. Oh, I'm sure they cited chapter and verse. But Jesus didn't care about chapter and verse so much as abiding by the central values that inspired those very verses to be written in the first place.

The Christian Church and its norms have undoubtedly changed over time -- to its credit. What started out as some obscure rebellious Jewish sect morphed into a global religion that looks nothing like itself in original form. It must continue to change or it will die. That's life.

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Old 02-27-2019, 5:58 AM
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It hasn't been very long since women could divorce men without the husband's consent. Don't forget that these "out of wedlock" births also coincide with an increase in the divorce rate. While you may also see that as a bad thing, I'll put the two together and see an improvement in the overall family situation. The only thing worse than a kid raised without a dad is a kid raised with two parents who hate each other. If women suddenly get freedom to do as they please and then start divorcing men, I find fault with the men -- call it pent-up demand for divorce. Better to have happy single moms than unhappy but in-tact families.

All that to say that aspiring to an ideal, like a two-parent household, is noble. But if it keeps you from dealing with the reality that's right in front of you, then the rigid ideal causes more harm than help. I'm no Marine. But the phrase, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" seems like good advice for life. Women doing that in their families are more saintly to me than rigid fanatics (like Paul) and their advice for others with no skin in the game. We make our plans for life. Then we adapt them because life doesn't care about our plans.

Putting a more Biblical spin on things, if we were supposed to conform to rigid ideals, then Jesus was a total screw up. He broke so many rules that the pastors of his day (Rabbis & Priests) wanted him dead for fear that he would upset things too much. Oh, I'm sure they cited chapter and verse. But Jesus didn't care about chapter and verse so much as abiding by the central values that inspired those very verses to be written in the first place.

The Christian Church and its norms have undoubtedly changed over time -- to its credit. What started out as some obscure rebellious Jewish sect morphed into a global religion that looks nothing like itself in original form. It must continue to change or it will die. That's life.
Jesus is the rule maker not the violator. It was the priests and rabbi's breaking the rules. Jesus came to fix it. Did you not read His words to them? They were making it up.
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Old 02-27-2019, 7:13 AM
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Women pastors in lead roles over men. The word of GOD says NO! Women are to be supportive to their men. GOD gave eve to Adam to support him, not to rule over him. GOD'S will is what's important.
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Old 02-27-2019, 7:33 AM
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Just love when I see fellow brothers speaking GOD’S word these are healthy learning threads at times not all agree but one thing is for sure as people pointed out GOD’S word is always true from start to finish just got to ask his spirit to reveal his truths.

AMEN brothers stay in his word and spirit and we will never be lead astray like sheep to the slaughter.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:59 PM
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Jesus is the rule maker not the violator. It was the priests and rabbi's breaking the rules. Jesus came to fix it. Did you not read His words to them? They were making it up.
Yes, I get that you believe Jesus and God are one and the same. It's a circular logic that cannot be refuted. I won't even try. But I certainly don't believe the same, nor have all Christians at all times.

But, addressing your point, Jesus indeed broke many of "Gods" laws. Not working on the Sabbath is still a Jewish custom that is a pretty cut and dry rule in Leviticus, not starting somewhere in the Talmud, Midrash or Mishna. Jesus challenged that by encouraging folks to honor the spirit of the law, not the letter. Further, he didn't think it was necessary to be stupid about it by, as in his example, failing to pull your own ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath because the law tells you not to do any work. Add to that his associations, many of which broke purity laws, and you have a guy who gained a reputation for breaking a lot of "God's" rules. Notice that he didn't tell anybody that the rules no longer apply or that he was declaring all Levitical codes null and void from then on (that would have gotten him killed a lot faster for blasphemy). He simply told people to use good judgment. I'll simply echo that encouragement.

Back to the original topic of the thread, yes, the Bible states pretty clearly that women needed (back then) to let men lead. Hard-core feminists certainly overstep if they want to find modern feminism in the Bible -- it just ain't there. But there are also values that make feminism a viable part of the Church's development, too. It may be a bad idea to have women leaders in hyper-conservative places. But if you're going to any major city in the developed world, you may as well get used to the idea.
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Old 02-27-2019, 1:05 PM
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Your remarks smack of those of Pastor Chandler,
Pastor Chandler, Pastor Tim Keller, Dr. Clarke & FotF president Jim Daly, Pastor Strauss, Dr. Russell Moore

What guy in his right mind would sit in the church and listen to these Manginas blame him for everything . . .

Many wives seek to divorcerape their husbank$ then go back on the cock carousel.
I don't know any of those people. Sorry.

Yea, you're right. People go to church to hear things that they already agree with. I forget that sometimes.

Many wives, huh? Know any? Seems like an opportunity in my book.
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Old 02-27-2019, 1:19 PM
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The Bible doesn't bend with the times. Gods word is forever. Negative on the female pastors.
BIngo.
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Old 02-27-2019, 2:16 PM
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Yes, I get that you believe Jesus and God are one and the same. It's a circular logic that cannot be refuted. I won't even try. But I certainly don't believe the same, nor have all Christians at all times.

But, addressing your point, Jesus indeed broke many of "Gods" laws. Not working on the Sabbath is still a Jewish custom that is a pretty cut and dry rule in Leviticus, not starting somewhere in the Talmud, Midrash or Mishna. Jesus challenged that by encouraging folks to honor the spirit of the law, not the letter. Further, he didn't think it was necessary to be stupid about it by, as in his example, failing to pull your own ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath because the law tells you not to do any work. Add to that his associations, many of which broke purity laws, and you have a guy who gained a reputation for breaking a lot of "God's" rules. Notice that he didn't tell anybody that the rules no longer apply or that he was declaring all Levitical codes null and void from then on (that would have gotten him killed a lot faster for blasphemy). He simply told people to use good judgment. I'll simply echo that encouragement.

Back to the original topic of the thread, yes, the Bible states pretty clearly that women needed (back then) to let men lead. Hard-core feminists certainly overstep if they want to find modern feminism in the Bible -- it just ain't there. But there are also values that make feminism a viable part of the Church's development, too. It may be a bad idea to have women leaders in hyper-conservative places. But if you're going to any major city in the developed world, you may as well get used to the idea.
There is nothing "circular" about it. John 1:1 clearly states that Jesus is God Almighty. The one who created all things. As in Genesis 1:1. Also, John 20:28. All orthodox Christians have believed Jesus is the God Man from the beginning as put forth in the first century in the Apostle's Creed. You may hate it. But it's not circular.
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Old 02-27-2019, 3:01 PM
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Does God allow it? Sometimes. And only some gods.

Did Paul allow it? Not likely. But he wasn't in charge of the church either. He gets a lot of credit and more than his fair share of "air time" in the Christian Bible. But he wasn't part of the core 12 at any point. He was an outsider with very different perspectives. Arguably, the original disciples were the ones responsible for getting Paul arrested & imprisoned. So we should take his points of view with a grain of salt. He may have been a minority opinion -- one to consider but hardly the gospel of Jesus himself.

That being said, Paul calls Phoebe a deacon. Women certainly served as deacons in the early church. Paul is not without a few contradictions -- as are all of us.

Did the Torah permit women to lead? Not usually. They were highly patriarchal -- much more than even other Semitic cultures. At least other Semites had female deities, consorts, etc. YHWH was a highly patriarchal dude -- strangely so.

Did Jesus allow it? Not really. But he certainly gave women more influence than his predecessors did. Mary Magdalene may have been more important than most of the 12. But she would have likely been pushed out after Jesus's death. There's no indication that she wanted power or tried to fight for prominence. The early church had enough trouble fighting for credibility & staving off persecution. I doubt they would have made feminism their hill to die on, assuming they were for equality at all.

There's a great book, THE MORAL VISION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that anybody who cares about ethical issues needs to read. While there may not be an explicit, "Let women rule!" commandment in the NT, there's plenty of hints that it's a good idea -- behavioral norms of Jesus, things he has said that would lead us to that conclusion, etc.

And if, like me, you're more pagan than Christian, then this is a no-brainer. Disallowing half the population from leadership in the community on the basis of genitalia alone is pretty stupid in my opinion.

I hate to say it but any culture that can't change with the times is dead or dying. I love the past and very reverent of tradition. Yet, I know that anything that lives and thrives, whether that be individuals or communities, adapts to its environment. Resisting change just means you're on your way out. Locking ourselves into rigid ideals may be rationally consistent. But today is for the living, not the dead.
The God of the bible which is his word does not change his ways because some think it is old fashion or not the prevalent culture of the time. Either your aligned with God or you will be left behind to your fate with the enemies of God. Separated for eternity from his presense.
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Old 02-27-2019, 4:12 PM
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Putting a more Biblical spin on things, if we were supposed to conform to rigid ideals, then Jesus was a total screw up. He broke so many rules that the pastors of his day (Rabbis & Priests) wanted him dead for fear that he would upset things too much. Oh, I'm sure they cited chapter and verse. But Jesus didn't care about chapter and verse so much as abiding by the central values that inspired those very verses to be written in the first place.

The Christian Church and its norms have undoubtedly changed over time -- to its credit. What started out as some obscure rebellious Jewish sect morphed into a global religion that looks nothing like itself in original form. It must continue to change or it will die. That's life.
All of the above is your personal opinion and certainly not biblical.

Ever read how Jesus kept the Law? Fulfilled the Law? Satisfied the laws demands for us? Did you know that Jesus led a perfect, sinless life? Did you know that that sinless life only qualified Him to die for our sins? Did you know that God wouldn't have resurrected Him from the dead had He not led that sinless life? How can you blaspheme God by saying that Jesus was a total screw-up for conforming to His own Law? That He broke so many rules?

Did you know that Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law? So, He cared more about every chapter and verse than any person that's ever lived?

Like I said, All that you wrote is your personal opinion and certainly not biblical.
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Old 02-28-2019, 5:00 AM
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All of the above is your personal opinion and certainly not biblical.

Ever read how Jesus kept the Law? Fulfilled the Law? Satisfied the laws demands for us? Did you know that Jesus led a perfect, sinless life? Did you know that that sinless life only qualified Him to die for our sins? Did you know that God wouldn't have resurrected Him from the dead had He not led that sinless life? How can you blaspheme God by saying that Jesus was a total screw-up for conforming to His own Law? That He broke so many rules?

Did you know that Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law? So, He cared more about every chapter and verse than any person that's ever lived?

Like I said, All that you wrote is your personal opinion and certainly not biblical.
Christ broke "rabbinic" rules, He didn't violate the Law of God. There is often a vast difference in what the Law says, and what the Rabbis wanted. Unfortunately, in someways, the Church of today is the same way.
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Old 02-28-2019, 9:15 AM
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Christ broke "rabbinic" rules, He didn't violate the Law of God. There is often a vast difference in what the Law says, and what the Rabbis wanted. Unfortunately, in someways, the Church of today is the same way.
Agreed. I was responding to a post that said otherwise!
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:10 AM
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The God of the bible which is his word does not change his ways because some think it is old fashion or not the prevalent culture of the time. Either your aligned with God or you will be left behind to your fate with the enemies of God. Separated for eternity from his presense.
Even the Salafis could not have put it better (substituting "bible" for Quran in their case).

The most intolerant wins, I guess.
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