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  #1  
Old 10-28-2018, 12:28 PM
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Default Parable of the hidden treasure: which is right?

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

44“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matthew 13:44 ESV)

1) Man is anyone of us. Hidden treasure is Jesus. He is of greater value than our worldly things.

2) Man is Jesus. Hidden treasure is us. Jesus gave all he had to purchase us.

I grew up having been taught interpretation #1. Today, I heard a sermon that taught interpretation #2.

What do you guys think?
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Old 10-28-2018, 1:20 PM
ndekens ndekens is offline
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

44“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matthew 13:44 ESV)

1) Man is anyone of us. Hidden treasure is Jesus. He is of greater value than our worldly things.

2) Man is Jesus. Hidden treasure is us. Jesus gave all he had to purchase us.

I grew up having been taught interpretation #1. Today, I heard a sermon that taught interpretation #2.

What do you guys think?
Its neither. It says plainly the “kingdom of heaven is like”. The kingdom of heaven isn’t Jesus or us. The verse is talking about forsaking your worldly life to do the spiritual work we have been put here on earth to do. That is to seek and to save the lost or preach the gospel and get others saved. So that we can store up our rewards in heaven.

Last edited by ndekens; 10-28-2018 at 1:21 PM.. Reason: Didnt finish before posting
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:00 PM
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That parable is the same as the one that follows it. (Mt13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.)

The parables have identical meanings. Both picture salvation as something hidden from most people (see v.11), but so valuable that people who have it revealed to them are willing to give up all they have to possess it.

Hope that helps!
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:08 PM
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That parable is the same as the one that follows it. (Mt13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.)

The parables have identical meanings. Both picture salvation as something hidden from most people (see v.11), but so valuable that people who have it revealed to them are willing to give up all they have to possess it.

Hope that helps!
The entire context of Matt 13 is about soulwinning or being a soulwinner. The context is a view of a person who is already saved and gather riches in heaven. Its not about getting saved but sowing the seed and spreading the gospel.

If you found a person that would go forth and do great things such as the apostle paul wouldnt you try your hardest to get them saved?
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:12 PM
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https://youtu.be/fqaa_WhtOWA
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Old 10-28-2018, 3:39 PM
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Its neither. It says plainly the “kingdom of heaven is like”. The kingdom of heaven isn’t Jesus or us. The verse is talking about forsaking your worldly life to do the spiritual work we have been put here on earth to do. That is to seek and to save the lost or preach the gospel and get others saved. So that we can store up our rewards in heaven.
I don't think that's what this parable is teaching.
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Old 10-28-2018, 3:46 PM
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[QUOTE=ndekens;22272924]Its neither. It says plainly the “kingdom of heaven is like”.
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The entire context of Matt 13 is about soulwinning or being a soulwinner. The context is a view of a person who is already saved and gather riches in heaven. Its not about getting saved but sowing the seed and spreading the gospel.

If you found a person that would go forth and do great things such as the apostle paul wouldnt you try your hardest to get them saved?
I don't think that's it. John MacArthur summarized the kingdom parables this way: first 2 parables - nature of the kingdom; 3rd and 4th - power of the kingdom; 5th and 6th (hidden treasure) - personal appropriation of the kingdom; and the final 7th - judgment.

https://www.gty.org/library/topical-...of-the-kingdom

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Sorry, this guy repeats himself a lot. Tried to listen, but didn't finish.
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Old 10-28-2018, 3:46 PM
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I don't think that's what this parable is teaching.
HMMMMM, maybe it's talking about OAK ISLAND. JK
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Old 10-28-2018, 3:48 PM
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That parable is the same as the one that follows it. (Mt13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.)

The parables have identical meanings. Both picture salvation as something hidden from most people (see v.11), but so valuable that people who have it revealed to them are willing to give up all they have to possess it.

Hope that helps!
That's how I grew up being taught and it's consistent with the commentaries that I've read.
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Old 10-28-2018, 3:51 PM
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HMMMMM, maybe it's talking about OAK ISLAND. JK
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Old 10-28-2018, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ndekens View Post
The entire context of Matt 13 is about soulwinning or being a soulwinner. The context is a view of a person who is already saved and gather riches in heaven. Its not about getting saved but sowing the seed and spreading the gospel.

If you found a person that would go forth and do great things such as the apostle paul wouldnt you try your hardest to get them saved?
Actually, a simple straight-forward reading of the verses indicates that the man does NOT already have the kingdom as he doesn't have the treasure nor the pearls. That's why he buys the field to get the treasure or buys the pearl.

Once you are saved, you instantly have ALL the treasures as you are children of God, heirs of God and a joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:16-17). I can't get any more because I have it all!
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Old 10-28-2018, 4:58 PM
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That's how I grew up being taught and it's consistent with the commentaries that I've read.
Great job doing your research! John MacArthur is an awesome source too. I have many commentaries on the gospels, and several books on interpreting the Parables. All agree with what I shared above.

God bless, brother!
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Old 10-28-2018, 9:00 PM
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I wouldnt trust the garbage you have been taught my someone the likes of John MacArthur.

https://youtu.be/BnuK5YUj5Wg
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Old 10-28-2018, 10:20 PM
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I would say this:

Sell all you have in this world in exchange for the Kingdom of God. As Jesus told the rich young ruler: "go and sell all you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and then come follow me". Mark 10:21.

Unlike Islam, Christianity was spread and conquered the Western world without warfare. There were no armies of armed Christians spreading their beliefs before the Roman empire converted to Christianity. It spread by being attractive to the hordes of people in a world where just about everybody was dirt poor. Christianity was a sort of communal property system of wealth and justice, and the masses in great numbers embraced it quite willingly without being at all forced to do so.

The downside of this system, about which Paul cautioned:

εἴ τις οὐ θέλει ἐργάζεσθαι μηδὲ ἐσθιέτω He who does not work neither shall he eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:10

Paul is quite certain that freeloaders must be booted from the Church. Especially freeloaders coming for the holy meal, the bread and wine of communion. Communion was not served in small symbolic portions in the early church. It was a feast, just like Passover from whence it came at Jesus' famous Last Passover (as for instance painted by Leonardo da Vinci)

Communion was a Passover type of feast. And the freeloaders in large numbers took advantage of Christian hospitality every single Sabbath (once every week). Paul said this must stop. You want to eat, then get a job!
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Old 10-29-2018, 2:48 AM
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I wouldnt trust the garbage you have been taught my someone the likes of John MacArthur.

https://youtu.be/BnuK5YUj5Wg
What John MacArthur said in that audio is consistent with scripture. Yes, salvation is given freely (grace), but it does come at a cost. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it's true. That's the point that your video doesn't get.

Here are some verses that support it.

Matthew 7:21-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13 New International Version (NIV)
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Luke 9:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Matthew 19:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
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Old 10-29-2018, 5:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
What John MacArthur said in that audio is consistent with scripture. Yes, salvation is given freely (grace), but it does come at a cost. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it's true. That's the point that your video doesn't get.

Here are some verses that support it.

Matthew 7:21-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13 New International Version (NIV)
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Luke 9:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Matthew 19:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

If salvation comes at a cost then it is not a free gift now is it? Also discipleship has nothing to do with salvation. This is the error of Lordship Salvationist.

Salvation is clearly taught in not just John 3:16 but all throughout the bible as simply believing in the Death Burial and ressurection. Thats it.
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Old 10-29-2018, 6:30 AM
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ndekens, what is your opinion on James chapter 2?

James 2:19 NKJV
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble!
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Old 10-29-2018, 7:00 AM
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ndekens, what is your opinion on James chapter 2?

James 2:19 NKJV
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble!
My opinion on James is its a book that a lot of works salvationist try to use to prop up there works salvation doctrines without having an understanding of Romans Chapter 1 and the clear doctrine it teaches that there are those that know and understand what salvation is and who God is but chose to reject him and thus are God rejects them. That type of person is called a reprobate.
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Old 10-29-2018, 7:08 AM
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My opinion on James is its a book that a lot of works salvationist try to use to prop up there works salvation doctrines without having an understanding of Romans Chapter 1 and the clear doctrine it teaches that there are those that know and understand what salvation is and who God is but chose to reject him and thus are God rejects them. That type of person is called a reprobate.
So are you saying that people who believe "faith without works is dead" are "works salvationists" and by your reference to Romans 1 are you saying they have been given over to debased minds?
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Old 10-29-2018, 7:47 AM
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The man didn't tell the landlord about the treasure. He didn't offer to share the treasure. This is about greed and dishonesty!
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:22 AM
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So are you saying that people who believe "faith without works is dead" are "works salvationists" and by your reference to Romans 1 are you saying they have been given over to debased minds?
If your going to try and quote James 2:20 or say that a person that dosn’t have works is not saved then you are trusting in your works to be saved.

Romans 1 says a “REPROBATE” mind not debased. False bibles, are the devils bibles.

Rebrobate means rejected=not going to be saved and will never come to a point of salvation.

Jer 6:30**Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:00 PM
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Works are the byproduct of salvation. Not the means of salvation.
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Old 10-29-2018, 1:47 PM
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If salvation comes at a cost then it is not a free gift now is it? Also discipleship has nothing to do with salvation. This is the error of Lordship Salvationist.

Salvation is clearly taught in not just John 3:16 but all throughout the bible as simply believing in the Death Burial and ressurection. Thats it.
ndekens,
What does Matthew 16:25 mean to you?

Matthew 16:25 English Standard Version (ESV)
25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
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Old 10-29-2018, 1:57 PM
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Old 10-29-2018, 2:43 PM
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ndekens,
What does Matthew 16:25 mean to you?

Matthew 16:25 English Standard Version (ESV)
25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
The context of that verse is discipleship. It is not a salvation verse.
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Old 10-29-2018, 3:02 PM
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The context of that verse is discipleship. It is not a salvation verse.
You're of the opinion that you get salvation without following Jesus?
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Old 10-29-2018, 3:50 PM
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You're of the opinion that you get salvation without following Jesus?
Did the theif on the cross follow Jesus?
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Old 10-29-2018, 4:17 PM
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Did the theif on the cross follow Jesus?
Yes he did. Your turn to answer my question.
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Old 10-29-2018, 4:24 PM
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Yes he did. Your turn to answer my question.
Salvation is by grace through faith alone. No works involved. No following Jesus or being a disciple needed to be saved. Just belief in the death burial and ressurection.

Adding the element of being a disciple to salvation is a false gospel. And is called Lordship salvation.

And how did the theif follow Jesus? Where were his works? He had none he was saved by grace through faith.
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Old 10-29-2018, 4:33 PM
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Salvation is by grace through faith alone. No works involved. No following Jesus or being a disciple needed to be saved. Just belief in the death burial and ressurection.

Adding the element of being a disciple to salvation is a false gospel. And is called Lordship salvation.

And how did the theif follow Jesus? Where were his works? He had none he was saved by grace through faith.
This is way off topic from the opening post so I won't belabor the point any further.

I too believe that we are saved by faith alone.

Perhaps you might be interested in starting a separate thread about the cost of following Jesus vs grace concept and see how others respond.
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Old 10-29-2018, 4:38 PM
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Salvation is by grace through faith alone. No works involved. No following Jesus or being a disciple needed to be saved. Just belief in the death burial and ressurection.

Adding the element of being a disciple to salvation is a false gospel. And is called Lordship salvation.

And how did the theif follow Jesus? Where were his works? He had none he was saved by grace through faith.
But, certainly following and being a disciple AFTER being saved, right?
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Old 10-29-2018, 5:47 PM
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But, certainly following and being a disciple AFTER being saved, right?
After salvation, if we so chose to be a follower of Christ, Yes.

However if you do nothing but believe unto salvation and still live the same sinful life you will still be saved. Hence why the theif on the cross was saved and never did anything dor the Lord. He just believed.
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Old 10-29-2018, 5:58 PM
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After salvation, if we so chose to be a follower of Christ, Yes.

However if you do nothing but believe unto salvation and still live the same sinful life you will still be saved. Hence why the theif on the cross was saved and never did anything dor the Lord. He just believed.
I don't agree with you and have a whole Bible full of verses to refute you, but let me ask this. What do you do with Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12, and Hebrews 12:4-11?
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Old 10-29-2018, 6:37 PM
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I don't agree with you and have a whole Bible full of verses to refute you, but let me ask this. What do you do with Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12, and Hebrews 12:4-11?
Of course you do Bill.
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Old 10-29-2018, 6:38 PM
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After salvation, if we so chose to be a follower of Christ, Yes.

However if you do nothing but believe unto salvation and still live the same sinful life you will still be saved. Hence why the theif on the cross was saved and never did anything dor the Lord. He just believed.
So believe unto salvation and if my sinful life is to rape and kill when i die I’m still saved? Do you still have to repent when you sin?
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Old 10-29-2018, 7:14 PM
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i think it means that when a man discovers his faith, he wants to embrace it entirely, and not leave it someplace else to visit when he needs to be reminded of god's glory.
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Old 10-29-2018, 9:48 PM
superdave50 superdave50 is offline
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Originally Posted by ndekens View Post
If your going to try and quote James 2:20 or say that a person that dosn’t have works is not saved then you are trusting in your works to be saved.

Romans 1 says a “REPROBATE” mind not debased. False bibles, are the devils bibles.

Rebrobate means rejected=not going to be saved and will never come to a point of salvation.

Jer 6:30**Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.


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Originally Posted by ndekens View Post
After salvation, if we so chose to be a follower of Christ, Yes.

However if you do nothing but believe unto salvation and still live the same sinful life you will still be saved. Hence why the theif on the cross was saved and never did anything dor the Lord. He just believed.
Do you happen to attend worship on Saturday by chance?
It's becoming quite clear that we have a differing viewpoint on scripture, so I will not push the issue any farther.
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  #38  
Old 10-30-2018, 4:13 AM
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billvau billvau is offline
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Of course you do Bill.

What do you do with Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12, and Hebrews 12:4-11?
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“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
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  #39  
Old 10-30-2018, 4:48 AM
terry4130 terry4130 is offline
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So believe unto salvation and if my sinful life is to rape and kill when i die I’m still saved? Do you still have to repent when you sin?


1 Corinthians 15 might clue in on this.


“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
**1 Corinthians‬ *15:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬

This simply states the gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day. Remembering this (believing) is all it takes to be saved.


But.... there is that “believed in vain” part.
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Old 10-30-2018, 9:01 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
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Parables shouldn't be over-thought or over-spiritualized. But you can't over-do the context. The way we think about it today (spiritual kingdom, discipleship as a formal & codified method as we see it today, etc.) is OUR way of seeing it but it would have been a foreign idea to Jesus and his audience.

There are only 3 rules to proper interpretation:
1) Context
2) Context
3) Context

Jesus was on a recruitment mission. He's just trying to get people to join his cause by saying that if you truly knew the value of what he's offering, you'd sell everything you have and dedicate your life to his mission. Maybe he's also saying that is what he has already done himself but he was pretty clearly trying to raise a following, which is hard to do unless people are convinced he has something to offer (treasure, justice, spiritual peace, etc.).

Alan Block raises a good point. Seems like there might be an ethical issue with not disclosing the presence of treasure on property that isn't yours as you're convincing somebody to sell it to you. But the rules of the marketplace in traditional societies often allow for some inequality in information. It's similar to how there were strict rules about charging interest to fellow Jews but there were no problems at all with charging interest to Gentiles. That brings a whole new light to the traditional interpretation of the parable of the talents (why would God encourage the "lazy" servant to lend his money out for interest?). But that's a thread for another day.
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