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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 09-06-2019, 6:26 PM
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We could keyboard commando this forever and still never know....
Only one way to actually find out... too many what it's there are only a small number on people on this forum who have been in a shooting or combat situation who know how they would react or hope they'd react but every situation is different and poses it's own world of problems.....
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  #42  
Old 09-07-2019, 7:01 AM
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Seeing the NV Walmart incident, here is another thought. Someone else with a gun is closing in on the active shooter. How do you tell if he/she is a good guy trying to get the shooter or a bad guy protecting the shooters back?
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  #43  
Old 09-07-2019, 7:21 AM
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Yes.
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  #44  
Old 09-07-2019, 8:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok55 View Post
Seeing the NV Walmart incident, here is another thought. Someone else with a gun is closing in on the active shooter. How do you tell if he/she is a good guy trying to get the shooter or a bad guy protecting the shooters back?
Happened in another Walmart shooting. CCW holder was advancing on shooter 1 and shooter 2 shot him. CCW guy never knew about shooter 2.
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  #45  
Old 09-07-2019, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by phdo View Post
I would not unless I’m in direct danger of the shooter. My wife and two boys’ livelihood is my only priority. If I don’t make it out of the gunfight, who will take care of my wife and kids? I know I won’t be able to live with the decision for the rest of my life. But, being able to grab my wife or sons for a hug will make living with the decision a little easier.
Here...

There are active scenario shooter classes and QCBs, etc. Some are even taught by active LAPD officers and SWAT, etc.

The moral, at least for ME - unless you or your loved ones are in direct danger, do not get involved. Things doesn't end after the shootout, expect a very lengthy post-situation investigation, lawsuits, time off from work, etc. etc.

In an active shooter scenario - first things first, get the f#ck out!!




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  #46  
Old 09-07-2019, 1:12 PM
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When I'm out, it's usually with my family, so no, I would not intervene. If I was by myself, I would like to think I would step up, but I don't really know.
Mauserguy

PS: I have reason to believe that there are a num er of CCWs at my church, so taking action there is very likely to result in drawing friendly fire. Intervention may be required, but it would be risky fo sure.
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  #47  
Old 09-07-2019, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
My thoughts and order of options on this matter are pretty clear: ESCAPE, TAKE COVER, and only if cornered, FIGHT. That is what the CCW is for.

911 will be jammed.

It's a very tough situation as OP has aptly named the various reasons. In that moment, we as CCW must never forget: RIFLE > PISTOL.

Lately, some of these guys have been showing up with AR's and a Red Dot. Taking a 50 yard shot quickly is no problem and easy.

Will I compete against that with my pistol? Hell no. Not unless I have an advantage.

I am not law enforcement and I am not a sheepdog. I am a man and above all else, I need to be alive so I can do what I need to do.

.
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All This ^^^

the only variable would be if the shooter was gunning down children, I don't think I could stand by for that.
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  #48  
Old 09-07-2019, 6:45 PM
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You really couldn't judge another person with a gun. It could be a gangbanger carrying illegally trying to do the right thing. Likewise, the police or another person going after the shooter wouldn't be able to judge your intentions. You couldn't trust whatever the other person said nor they you.
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  #49  
Old 09-07-2019, 7:56 PM
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Nope. Unless I have no other option. I did the duty to country thing for 24 years but now it's all about my family.
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  #50  
Old 09-07-2019, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by downdiver2 View Post
You cant shoot her when she's backing off.
Actually, it depends on which issuing agency. I saw one video where the CCW was shot at by someone attacking their vehicle, but they weren't hit. The bad guy ran away, CCW got out and followed them.

Sherriff's deputy had everyone vote, "OK to shoot them?" Almost everyone voted "no."

Deputy said, "Of course you can. They just tried to kill you. There are other pedestrians in the area. For all you know they're going to go try and kill someone else. It's an imminent threat to the public, even if they are leaving you." It was an interesting way of looking at it.

That being said, I was at an Active Shooter training that made me change my thinking.

The first scenario, I was psychologically ready to engage the bad guy. But he entered the auditorium for the other side of the room. I turned to face him - and found myself facing a dozen senior citizens trying to get away from him, and I was in their way. So I had to turn around and lead them to safety.

At the end of the class, I volunteered to be the bad guy. They had me leave the room while they prepared the others.

I walked back into the room - and was immediately hit by 50 ping-pong balls. That was really distracting. I think I managed to still empty the nerf gun, but I have no idea if I hit anyone.

They were told not to touch me.

Four guys immediately tackled me to the ground.

The crowd really got into the training. The deputies apologized profusely. But I had to admit that it was effective training.


So, as the others have said, lots of variables. At a facility I know, such as my church, I have a significant advantage in that I know the terrain. I may be able to obtain keys. We have cameras and radios. And I know several CCW attendees. As a team, we definitely have a chance to pin them down somewhere until SWAT arrives.

Heck, they might self-terminate once they face armed opposition. The San Bernardino shooters were not strong enough to hold their ARs at their shoulder. They were firing from the hip. That works in a closed conference room. But it's not taking 50-yard precision shots.

On the other hand, at the mall, I can't really fault the soldier in El Paso who had his CCW and decided the better choice was to herd a group of panicked children to safety.

Then there's also the first aid issue. A friend who was at Las Vegas first got her sister to safety. Then she went back to do first aid. Had I been present, I'm definitely not letting her go back alone. But that was a situation where the only counter-tactic I can think of would be a police sniper on another building.

The key item in the situation dramatized in the 15:17 to Paris was that the three American servicemen recognized that the bad guy's AK jammed, and realized they had an opportunity to take action. Without training they wouldn't have recognized that a gun jamming meant that they had a second or two.

Most of these bad guys have little training. They make mistakes. If you have more training, you can take advantage of the situation.

Even better if you have a rifle and body armor in your trunk like this SAS guy in Nairobi.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-hotel-complex

Last edited by Foothills; 09-07-2019 at 10:22 PM..
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  #51  
Old 09-07-2019, 9:08 PM
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It's hard to tell until you're in that very situation, but if past performance is any indication, then yes. I've engaged people shooting at me before.
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  #52  
Old 09-07-2019, 11:15 PM
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Would I take the risk? Yes. But my FIRST goal will always be to get me and my family OFF OF THE X! If engaging the shooter support that mission, then absolutely. Is there cover available? Can I engage without becoming a target before I can even get to cover? Is my family clear of incoming rounds?

No such thing as a fair gunfight, the shooter most likely has a superior weapon system and has already engaged, as returning fire, we are already at a distinct disadvantage in the senario.

It takes a real pair to run towards gunfire; you don't rise to the hero, you sink to the level of your training. How prepared are you to engage a moving target, in a room full of bystanders , from what ever cover / concealment you can find, while possibility being shot at?
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  #53  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:36 AM
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short answer: NO

here in california you can stop a mass shooter and become a murder yourself, also opening yourself up to lawsuits.

If the shooter is shooting others and not at me or my family i would not engage. Since CA is so liberal their "your not a position to judge others" attitude will open you up to prison time and/or legal liabilities. That's why its a NO for me.

If the shooter presents a threat to me or my family yes i'd engage under self defense.

If any CA lawyers could say that the CA HS code 1799.102
"No person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency medical or non-medical care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission. The scene of an emergency shall not include emergency departments and other places where medical care is usually offered." applies to shootings then it may be a different answer.
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  #54  
Old 09-08-2019, 7:14 PM
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Absolutely....I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again knowing I let some nut job go postal on innocent people when I had the means to fight it.
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  #55  
Old 09-10-2019, 1:02 PM
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Default Mostly agree, but...

Definitely hear what a lot of you guys are saying. I've designated myself as my wife's protector, but I can't always be with her. I'd like to think someone with the capacity to do so would step up.
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  #56  
Old 09-10-2019, 1:11 PM
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obviously it is hard to predict what you would really do in an active shooter situation, where survival instincts take over, but i would like to think i would go after the shooter (if i was armed).
sure my family is my priority, but in that situation, i am not sure i could just run or hide and let folks be slaughtered.
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  #57  
Old 09-10-2019, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tasdevl View Post
Definitely hear what a lot of you guys are saying. I've designated myself as my wife's protector, but I can't always be with her. I'd like to think someone with the capacity to do so would step up.
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  #58  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ewok55 View Post
... A mass shooter with an AK or AR opens up on the crowd ...
I will stop him or he will stop me.
Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to console myself over the years with, "hey, it wasn't MY job."
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  #59  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:17 AM
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I'm in the boat with young men with young family. The are my number one priority. Yes, I can live with the fact that people died even though I had my pistol because of the previously mentioned variables stacked against me. I'm not going to guilt myself knowing I wasn't the nut job who started killing innocents. Now, if I had a clear shot and I didn't take it, I may feel guilty.

But who knows? I'm also not the type to stand around and watch people suffer if I can make a difference in that instance. I guess I just have to keep training.
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Old 09-11-2019, 9:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tasdevl View Post
Definitely hear what a lot of you guys are saying. I've designated myself as my wife's protector, but I can't always be with her. I'd like to think someone with the capacity to do so would step up.
This. ^^^

I understand we are from many walks of life...but if you are trained, able bodied, and emotionally capable...I would hope you would assess the situation and intervene if at all possible.

I'm not talking about the "III% sHeEpdOg" LARPERS of the community...I'm speaking to those of us who take it seriously. Have hundreds of hours of formal training, and the ability to act on it.
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  #61  
Old 09-11-2019, 9:24 AM
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Q-would you help?
A-yes, always yes!
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  #62  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:49 PM
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Too many variables to consider so I can't comment on that hypothetical. What I do know is that having many people running around in hysteria is not what I trained for nor is a law suit after the gun is fired. With the laws and nuts in CA you really have to be lucky and well trained to make it out of any type of shooting with your bank account and freedom. Best to sit back with the popcorn and wait.
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  #63  
Old 09-14-2019, 3:34 PM
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The main reason I got my CCW. More people need to be running toward gunfire instead of away from it. I'm 61 years old. If I can save a 17 month old or 17 year old, I absolutely would.
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  #64  
Old 09-16-2019, 3:16 PM
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It really depends.

My default thinking and line of action is that I only draw if I feel in imminent danger to be killed. That's why I'm carrying.
If I'm in a Walmart and I hear shots at the other end of the store, I doubt that I would rush to that location to engage a shooter with a rifle, putting my own life in danger.

But if the shooter is shooting at customers close to me -- which in turn really puts me in immediate danger of my own life -- and I have a clear shot at him, I might go for it. If not, I'll seek cover and try to escape the life-threatening situation.

Once again, once you find yourself in a situation where you don't have to ponder whether to draw or not, because you see your life flashing before your eyes, it's a no-brainer.
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  #65  
Old 09-16-2019, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by johnpatrick View Post
The main reason I got my CCW. More people need to be running toward gunfire instead of away from it. I'm 61 years old. If I can save a 17 month old or 17 year old, I absolutely would.


The MAIN reason you got a CCW is to protect others?

You’re a different breed, brother . Did you ever consider joining PD/Sheriffs during your life? Not sheit-talking, just wondering....

That might be my 2nd, or 3rd, thought....but not my first.


.
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  #66  
Old 10-02-2019, 7:38 PM
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My hypothetical response, definite maybe!
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  #67  
Old 10-02-2019, 7:44 PM
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That's a tough 1 .. only have 6rds on my glock 43
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  #68  
Old 10-02-2019, 8:00 PM
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i used to have a simple rule of thumb. if you point a gun at me and I am carrying expect to get shot. If i am close enough within six feet to stick you with my folding knife most likely you are going to get a nasty stomach wound or a blade in the heart. Been shot at and do not like it. never was rambo and never intend to be but if i see children and old people in danger then I will make a decision and suffer the consequences of my actions. But I will never apologize for trying to do the right thing at the time.
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Old 10-02-2019, 9:49 PM
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- i'm dropping a spicy turd in my pants and running for the exit
- if anyone else wants to be a hero I respect that

- but for me CCW is for myself and family first
- plus rifle fire is like crazy scary loud too..
- i think i'd be 'shell shocked' having zero experience with gunfire sound levels WITHOUT hearing protection...











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  #70  
Old 10-02-2019, 10:18 PM
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I carry a gun to protect myself and mine. I would not break cover and put my family at risk to be a hero. If I were in a position to make a shot to end the carnage, I would. Something to always think about, if there are other good guys with guns shooting, would you know they are good guys? Would they know you are a good guy? In all honesty, I hope it never happens, if it does, I can only hope things work out well for the public's sake.
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  #71  
Old 10-03-2019, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
I absolutely 100% might.
This. As others have said, there are too many variables. Even with a valid CCW, none of us is obligated to act in defense of anyone but our families and ourselves.

I think that the only time any of us can say we'd 100% engage is if we were cornered or about to be directly engaged with no other options available.
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  #72  
Old 10-03-2019, 8:43 AM
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I said this already and will again repeat it

Take an Active Shooter Scenario class from a reputable provider. Then again give your answers.

I've been through several - ITTS (LAPD SWAT Scott Reitz) and Front Sight's tactical scenarios (shoot house).

My take - unless me or my family is in direct and immediate danger, I will NOT engage.


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  #73  
Old 10-03-2019, 1:49 PM
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Yes, if the shooter is right in front of me or I am able to get a "cheap shot". Every other situation, I'm out.
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Old 10-04-2019, 1:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red View Post
i used to have a simple rule of thumb. if you point a gun at me and I am carrying expect to get shot. If i am close enough within six feet to stick you with my folding knife most likely you are going to get a nasty stomach wound or a blade in the heart. Been shot at and do not like it. never was rambo and never intend to be but if i see children and old people in danger then I will make a decision and suffer the consequences of my actions. But I will never apologize for trying to do the right thing at the time.
^This^
Active shooter scenario always comes to mind every time were in church. I always think about the risk of friendly fire, from other CCW holders and church security. But I would definitely take the shot if I’m at a distance close enough to hit the perpetrator. Otherwise, I would take my family to safety first
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  #75  
Old 10-04-2019, 5:22 PM
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Good question. Just took my CCW class last week and the instructor urged us to scenario plan and to talk about those plans and possible actins with your family / loved ones. A worthwhile mental exercise! In any given scenario, whether your choice is to assume a defensive position and escape the area with family, or confront the shooter on your own, or while providing cover while your family escapes the threat, scenarios such as this one should be considered by everyone who carries a firearm.
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  #76  
Old 10-09-2019, 1:21 PM
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I wouldn't even date one.
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  #77  
Old 10-13-2019, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok55 View Post
Would you engage a mass shooter?
In a heart beat. Hell would come with me to take out the bad guy. For I don’t carry a sword for no reason.

Romans 13:1-7.
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  #78  
Old 10-14-2019, 3:07 PM
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I guess that I am greedy, in that I went through training and the trouble of getting my CCW and the right guns to carry. Many choose not to and put themselves at the mercy of the bad guy or a savior/hero to put their lives on the line to do what anyone has the chance to do.
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