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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 08-21-2019, 9:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Bolded is Wrong, happens every day even on good shoots.
Yep. Plenty of ambulance chaser attorneys out there who will work for contingency. That is why I have CCW Safe with civil protection..
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  #42  
Old 08-21-2019, 9:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
- a criminal is not going to have the means to come after you civilly, nor will his non-existent estate or relatives
So why are the police always getting sued by criminals?
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  #43  
Old 08-21-2019, 10:15 PM
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Absolutely Yes. I like to carry Sabre 3 in 1. If I am in a local such as a gas station at night, I can have my pepper spray in hand ready to go. I can do that with my gun. Pepper spray can also work well with a strong hand held flash light, if I have a treat that does not demand lethal force (yes they exist) the light removes the persons visual horizon, and the pepper spray allows me a tool to escape and evade. (I still have my gun)
The issue with pepper spray well carrying a gun is how much can you comfortably carry in an accessible way. I dress casually mostly in cargo shorts so a gun, spare mag IWB, flashlight either OWB or pocket and a med kit with tourniquet, phone, wallet and keys round out a full load. If I carry pepper spray its OWB.
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  #44  
Old 08-21-2019, 11:26 PM
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Please cite actual cases.
Do not live in fear...
There is no substantial pattern or frequency of ccw related lawsuits...

There is just FUD.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen... I'm saying the magnitude is statistically insignificant.

Just like CCW convictions or even charges in true, legal self defense.. there is this new mythology on the internet that is you legally defend yourself you are going to jail and getting sued.

No facts (actual cases) support this..

Naturally the FUD comes from many CCW insurance companies...

A few years back in an east coast city a man was getting mugged at knife point entering his apartment... the victim had a ccw, killed him... the police said thank you, no charges and away he went...

The vast majority of ccw news is justified legal defense without charge...

IF of course the victim defended himself legally under the law.

Simply too much FUD about this.

Stay within the law and you are golden.
Break the law or walk the fence.. then you've got worries...

But defending yourself a 10x criminal felon in a situation where your live was in immediate danger will get you a "thank you" from most cops..

Cops are excellent judges of character.. they know who's the good guy and who's the jailbird
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  #45  
Old 08-21-2019, 11:29 PM
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JC,

I'm not speaking about police or police matters. I am speaking of private citizens with ccws.
Fud sells insurance.. next to the banks, insurance companies have the tallest buildings in any city skyline... guess why...
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  #46  
Old 08-22-2019, 7:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Please cite actual cases.
Do not live in fear...
There is no substantial pattern or frequency of ccw related lawsuits...

There is just FUD.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen... I'm saying the magnitude is statistically insignificant.

Just like CCW convictions or even charges in true, legal self defense.. there is this new mythology on the internet that is you legally defend yourself you are going to jail and getting sued.

No facts (actual cases) support this..

Naturally the FUD comes from many CCW insurance companies...

A few years back in an east coast city a man was getting mugged at knife point entering his apartment... the victim had a ccw, killed him... the police said thank you, no charges and away he went...

The vast majority of ccw news is justified legal defense without charge...

IF of course the victim defended himself legally under the law.

Simply too much FUD about this.

Stay within the law and you are golden.
Break the law or walk the fence.. then you've got worries...

But defending yourself a 10x criminal felon in a situation where your live was in immediate danger will get you a "thank you" from most cops..

Cops are excellent judges of character.. they know who's the good guy and who's the jailbird


One of the lawyers HERE on calguns said that virtually EVERY shooting will have a lawsuit after.

Every heard the saying, " Every bullet comes with a lawyer attached?"

Think about it.
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  #47  
Old 08-22-2019, 8:22 AM
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Turbo,

I understand the hearsay and anecdotes.

I'm taking about acutual case studies/cases.

They do not exist in any significant magnitude.

Anyone can sue.
90% of lawsuits are thrown out.

If you obey the law there will be no cri6or civil issues.

Here's a recent case in where the CCW guy did NOT obey the law and is facing criminal charges and will likely be sued too.

But please note how he broke the law being CCW Batman:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mod...234223692.html


The REAL issue is a minority of ccw people turning into instigators, batman, looking for trouble, itching to fire, cowboy, etc... these types ARE breaking the law.. and will get sued.

Obey the law.

Carry your pepper spray if you desire because you ARE going to obey they law.

Only lawbreakers have something to worry about.

I'd anyone is uncertain on the law please consult a lawyer.
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  #48  
Old 08-22-2019, 9:37 AM
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I will strongly encourage everyone to not listen to the majority of this comment. Talk about FUD!

Read the top story in the Modesto Bee today. I do not know if that shooting is justified or not as I have no details other than what is in the paper. What I do know is that the answer is not obvious.

As far as affording attorneys, they cost about $400 an hour. You are better off having some protection ahead of time.

If you get into a shooting, the lawsuit is almost guaranteed! Family will come out of everywhere in order to sue you.


The 99.999999% quote is completely incorrect. The vast majority do not get prosecuted, but most do end up in a civil suit.

The line that baffles me the most is use your credit and/or house to pay for an attorney. Um, I would rather pay $22 a month to make sure that doesn't happen!


I will agree that most cops are not stupid. I was a cop for 9 years and I will say, most cops are not going to go after you if it is OBVIOUSLY self-defense. However, the captains are politicians. That is how they got promoted.

The DA is also a politician who is literally elected by the people of the county. A Deputy DA will make the charging decision. I am married to a Deputy DA. She does not live in a fantasy land, but many of her coworkers do. Many literally do not understand the concept of civilian self-defense. My county is a fairly conservative county.

In another response, you spoke about insurance companies having the second tallest buildings in the city. USCCA's headquarters are at 1000 Freedom Way West Bend, WI. A simple Google search will show everyone that it is definitely NOT a tall building!

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
- stop worrying about being sued/prosecuted after a defense situation and PROTECT YOURSELF

- use common sense

- there are virtually ZERO case studies of CCW defenders in hot water, UNLESS it was OBVIOUSLY not in self-defense

- if you can afford CCW and range-practice YOU CAN AFFORD TO RETAIN AN ATTORNEY when/if it's time (likely NEVER)

- that's what attorneys are for

- carry WHATEVER works for you

- a criminal is not going to have the means to come after you civilly, nor will his non-existent estate or relatives

- if you ever get into an issue you can retain a lawyer with savings, credit, house/assets as collateral etc

- 99.99999% of LEGIT CCW defense cases do NOT get prosecuted or go to civil trial

- anything to the contrary is FUD and mythology

- cops are not stupid, neither is the captain, neither is the DA

- overzealous DA stuff can happen, but there's even more overzealous defense attorneys out there ready to do their thng

- just do what works for YOU













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Last edited by Whites of Their Eyes; 08-22-2019 at 9:57 AM..
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  #49  
Old 08-22-2019, 9:58 AM
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There are CCW insurance companies that will insure you for a defensive shooting even if you do not have a CCW permit. Good idea to protect your assets from civil suits imo.
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  #50  
Old 08-22-2019, 9:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
I carry pepper spray. I want an option between empty hand and deadly force.

But with that said, I've also wondered if it could ultimately work against you if you get a liberal jury. Like... "Mr Cabo, why did you shoot him when you could have sprayed him?" A liberal jury may think it's perfectly reasonable that I should have tried to pepper spray the guy trying to stab me BEFORE I shoot him. But I'm hoping a good lawyer can overcome this if it happens. And ultimately I see more of an upside than a downside. YMMV.

I carry Fox Labs in the regular stream spray. A small one in my pocket with the flip top lid and a larger can in my truck. Personally I would go with either Fox or Sabre Red in whatever form factor you think is best. Either maker, however, is solid.
Yes, me too. You can't shoot everyone that pushes you or gets in your face. Have tactical light, pepper and gun. sometimes no gun and just light, baton and spray. Also have assisted tact folder. Prefer 2 - 4 oz pepper, but it all varies. Some is 3 oz, 3.1 oz and in NY/NJ it is much les than an oz...and watered down. Still works decent. Rub some in your eye if you want to test it.

Gel spray works better inside. Cone spray is great outdoors if you have the wind at your back. But any way you cut it, no perfect thing.

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  #51  
Old 08-22-2019, 1:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barca101 View Post
As a retired LEO who CCW, I want other use of force option. I carry, First Defense MK-6 2% pepper Spray. It what I carried for years and definitely effective. Its also what I give my spouse and daughters for protection.
I see that they sell 0.2% and 1.3% strength, according to the labels. Is the 2% a typo, or were you referring to 0.2%? If so, wouldn't you want the stronger spray?
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  #52  
Old 08-23-2019, 12:11 PM
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While I think of it, Active Self Protection on YT had a video regarding the efficacy of gel vs. spray. Of course, there are unknowns, like, how old was the gel? But his (John, principal at that channel) pepper spray videos are thought-provoking.

Wondering if any of you have tried the POM ("Peace Of Mind") sprays he is flogging.



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  #53  
Old 08-26-2019, 12:36 AM
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Yes, Sabre Red and a small Glock for ccw. I too want a less lethal option to choose first, if the situation calls for the use of “bad-guy repellent.”
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  #54  
Old 08-26-2019, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
Yes, Sabre Red and a small Glock for ccw. I too want a less lethal option to choose first, if the situation calls for the use of “bad-guy repellent.”
Yeah. I'm not sure why people wouldn't want something they could use against a belligerent unarmed person. Most of us probably aren't feeble enough to justify lethal force against an unarmed attacker. Little old ladies could, not me.

Too much "judged by twelve, buried by six" bravado. Most violent crimes are simple assaults, not with a weapon. Even if you've got very good unarmed defensive skills, wouldn't it be better if you could just spray someone and walk away? I'd like to avoid physical altercations with potentially drugged or diseased crazies if possible.

Now if they're armed, all bets are off. I'm not taking a chance, even if it's a screwdriver or pocket knife.
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  #55  
Old 09-04-2019, 7:41 AM
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I’ve had to pull my can of Fox pepper spray out twice. In one case, the jerk saw it and immediately started back stepping. Problem solved.

In the other case, a drugged out meth head was talking smack and I pulled it and had it positioned low, aimed at his face at an angle. He was so out of his mind, he never saw it. He ended up walking away after I diffused the situation by saying “no problem no problem” and letting him rant a bit.

In both cases, the pepper spray was good to have and I didn’t have to pull my pistol which would have resulted in a bad shoot if I used it since both times the guys were unarmed.


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  #56  
Old 09-04-2019, 7:48 AM
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I am ambivalent, but note what appears to be a conflict between people thinking they will have time to try a non lethal option on the one hand, and the scorn and ridicule for anyone asking about Israeli carry on the other. The stats about how fast and how close self defense shootings are tells me that pepper spray could be dangerous to the user.

To me, drawing my weapon IS a chance for the attacker to decide its non lethal. Screwing around with pepper spray in one of my hands to try to make some imaginary jury happy seems dangerous.
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  #57  
Old 09-05-2019, 9:37 AM
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I have a CCW and just picked up a pepper spray after thinking it over.

I want to have a less-than-lethal cuz those times can come up. I don't want to pull a gun on a dog, a disabled old homeless man trying to hit me with a stick, a teen in a parking lot road rage, or similar.

.
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  #58  
Old 09-05-2019, 11:04 AM
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Might come in handy as a rescue option too IF you chose to, someone is being beaten badly it’s not much effort to give the attacker a snort and you back off fast.
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  #59  
Old 09-08-2019, 6:01 PM
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i carry a pom with me alongside my carry pistol


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  #60  
Old 09-08-2019, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
I’ve had to pull my can of Fox pepper spray out twice. In one case, the jerk saw it and immediately started back stepping. Problem solved.

In the other case, a drugged out meth head was talking smack and I pulled it and had it positioned low, aimed at his face at an angle. He was so out of his mind, he never saw it. He ended up walking away after I diffused the situation by saying “no problem no problem” and letting him rant a bit.

In both cases, the pepper spray was good to have and I didn’t have to pull my pistol which would have resulted in a bad shoot if I used it since both times the guys were unarmed.


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This ^^

I always carried Pepper spray pre-CCW and during CCW. No reason to shoot an aggressive dog. Same for unarmed, drunks, aggressive homeless and druggie.

Not every situation requires a bullet. As I recall the class and instructor firing your weapon is the last resort where all other options are exhausted.

Being chased shoved, grabbed by an aggressive unarmed drunks and homeless shooting them instead of retreating won't look good.

I posted a while back using pepper spray to subdue an armed robbery at gas station. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=786110

If I had my CCW at that time, he'd still be sprayed first. As pepper spray would be in hand already with finger on the button.
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