Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Discussions of Faith
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-02-2018, 7:58 PM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,246
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default Let's talk about rainbows

Does the rainbow mean simply that God will not destroy the flesh with the flood again (as explicitly stated in the scripture ) or can some other symbolic meaning be gleaned from it?

Here's the contextual text: Genesis 9:12-16

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13 I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh." Genesis 9:12-16 ESV

An interesting thing I learned is that the NIV version says, "rainbow", but the ESV version says, a "bow", as in archery bow. The questionable interpretation that I heard in a sermon is that the bow is pointing up towards heaven, not us, which implies that the wrath is not against us. Further, the bow is specifically pointing towards Jesus, who has taken God's wrath on our behalf.

I'm not sure about that interpretation. Seems like a sappy forced interpretation to link everything to Jesus.

To me, the rainbow means God's mercy and simply that he won't destroy us with a flood again.

Interestingly, the rainbow appears in Revelation as well.

"And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald."
Revelation 4:3 ESV

I believe that it means Jesus' everlasting mercy.

What do you guys think?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-02-2018, 9:03 PM
damon1272 damon1272 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,970
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

It means exactly what God meant it to mean in Genesis 9 and that promise holds to this day. That it has been corrupted as a symbol today points to the utter depravity of man.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-02-2018, 9:05 PM
DolphinFan DolphinFan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,004
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

The Rainbow is more Beautiful than the pot at the end of it, Because the Rainbow is now and the pot never turns out to be quite what I expected.
-Hugh Prather, "Notes to Myself"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-03-2018, 5:43 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,209
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
It means exactly what God meant it to mean in Genesis 9 and that promise holds to this day. That it has been corrupted as a symbol today points to the utter depravity of man.
Pretty much this^^^
__________________
Psalm 103
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-03-2018, 6:01 AM
Dano3467 Dano3467 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: 85 mi south of Oregon
Posts: 6,633
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

^^^
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-03-2018, 6:27 AM
RandyD's Avatar
RandyD RandyD is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La Jolla, California
Posts: 5,581
iTrader: 45 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
It means exactly what God meant it to mean in Genesis 9 and that promise holds to this day. That it has been corrupted as a symbol today points to the utter depravity of man.
This is my view too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-03-2018, 8:08 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 666
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

It's an explaining story. Don't read too much into it. Surface level is fine for most readers. Any deeper meanings are largely speculative but will rarely point in obvious places. If the writer(s) wanted to make those meanings obvious, they would have been. If they wanted them to be hidden, there would be a good reason to keep them hidden/obscure.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:49 AM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Does the rainbow mean simply that God will not destroy the flesh with the flood again (as explicitly stated in the scripture ) or can some other symbolic meaning be gleaned from it?

Here's the contextual text: Genesis 9:12-16

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13 I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh." Genesis 9:12-16 ESV

An interesting thing I learned is that the NIV version says, "rainbow", but the ESV version says, a "bow", as in archery bow. The questionable interpretation that I heard in a sermon is that the bow is pointing up towards heaven, not us, which implies that the wrath is not against us. Further, the bow is specifically pointing towards Jesus, who has taken God's wrath on our behalf.

I'm not sure about that interpretation. Seems like a sappy forced interpretation to link everything to Jesus.

To me, the rainbow means God's mercy and simply that he won't destroy us with a flood again.

Interestingly, the rainbow appears in Revelation as well.

"And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald."
Revelation 4:3 ESV

I believe that it means Jesus' everlasting mercy.

What do you guys think?
Your observation is correct "sappy forced interpretation..."!

A couple of things. First, as everyone is pointing out, God simply meant "rainbow" (our word) as a covenant sign that He wouldn't flood the earth again.

Second, the word is literally "bow" (Hebrew word pronounced "qeset"), most often used like in "bow and arrow". BUT, Hebrew translation is even more dependent on context than NT Greek. Context and grammar RULE in interpretation. Context says rainbow and only rainbow!

Third, the Hebrew mindset and use of language is very, very literal. To give you a New Testament example, Colossians 3:12 says to "put on a heart of compassion." The literal wording says to put on "bowels of compassion!" In other words, when "feel compassion," you feel it in your gut! (We say "gut feeling" for a lot of things). So, God used an object that was common to them (the bow) to name/describe a new object -the rainbow.

But, most importantly, this is the first covenant that God makes with man - the Noahic covenant. There are five God-originated covenants described as "everlasting" and this is the first. The other 4 include: 1) Abrahamic (Gen. 17:7); 2) Priestly (Num. 25:10–13); 3) Davidic (2 Sam. 23:5); and 4) New (Jer. 32:40).

Lastly, one very interesting detail about this promise that God makes is how specific it is - God will never destroy the world again by water. He qualified the promise by the means, for God later promised to destroy the earth with fire!(2 Pet. 3:10, 11; Rev. 20:9; 21:1).

Time for second cup of coffee! Have a blessed day!
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:00 AM
larkja larkja is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 800
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

So many things in ancient lore are trying to explain things in supernatural terms they didn't understand at the time. This is a great example. A rainbow is merely the refraction as white light hits water droplets. Now, why is light made up of so many colors, or why does it break apart when it hits a raindrop or glass? Those are better questions to ask the maker when you see him.

Don't read more into it.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:16 AM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,246
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Your observation is correct "sappy forced interpretation..."!

A couple of things. First, as everyone is pointing out, God simply meant "rainbow" (our word) as a covenant sign that He wouldn't flood the earth again.

Second, the word is literally "bow" (Hebrew word pronounced "qeset"), most often used like in "bow and arrow". BUT, Hebrew translation is even more dependent on context than NT Greek. Context and grammar RULE in interpretation. Context says rainbow and only rainbow!

Third, the Hebrew mindset and use of language is very, very literal. To give you a New Testament example, Colossians 3:12 says to "put on a heart of compassion." The literal wording says to put on "bowels of compassion!" In other words, when "feel compassion," you feel it in your gut! (We say "gut feeling" for a lot of things). So, God used an object that was common to them (the bow) to name/describe a new object -the rainbow.

But, most importantly, this is the first covenant that God makes with man - the Noahic covenant. There are five God-originated covenants described as "everlasting" and this is the first. The other 4 include: 1) Abrahamic (Gen. 17:7); 2) Priestly (Num. 25:10–13); 3) Davidic (2 Sam. 23:5); and 4) New (Jer. 32:40).

Lastly, one very interesting detail about this promise that God makes is how specific it is - God will never destroy the world again by water. He qualified the promise by the means, for God later promised to destroy the earth with fire!(2 Pet. 3:10, 11; Rev. 20:9; 21:1).

Time for second cup of coffee! Have a blessed day!
I really appreciate your detailed response Bill. Learning a lot from you.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:22 AM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,246
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
It means exactly what God meant it to mean in Genesis 9 and that promise holds to this day. That it has been corrupted as a symbol today points to the utter depravity of man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
Pretty much this^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano3467 View Post
^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
This is my view too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
It's an explaining story. Don't read too much into it. Surface level is fine for most readers. Any deeper meanings are largely speculative but will rarely point in obvious places. If the writer(s) wanted to make those meanings obvious, they would have been. If they wanted them to be hidden, there would be a good reason to keep them hidden/obscure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DolphinFan View Post
The Rainbow is more Beautiful than the pot at the end of it, Because the Rainbow is now and the pot never turns out to be quite what I expected.
-Hugh Prather, "Notes to Myself"
Amen!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:27 AM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,246
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by larkja View Post
So many things in ancient lore are trying to explain things in supernatural terms they didn't understand at the time. This is a great example. A rainbow is merely the refraction as white light hits water droplets. Now, why is light made up of so many colors, or why does it break apart when it hits a raindrop or glass? Those are better questions to ask the maker when you see him.

Don't read more into it.
I don't believe that it's an ancient lore. He tells us specifically WHY he made the rainbow. The science of "how" isn't in the purview of the Bible.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-04-2018, 3:13 PM
Yodaman Yodaman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,167
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
It means exactly what God meant it to mean in Genesis 9 and that promise holds to this day. That it has been corrupted as a symbol today points to the utter depravity of man.


As stated
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-04-2018, 3:49 PM
Fastattack's Avatar
Fastattack Fastattack is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Central Arizona (formerly So Cal)
Posts: 820
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Not to be disrespectful, but seriously, at the First Congregational Church down the street, it literally means that LGBTQ are welcome and accepted, as is. Big sign out front says so.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:09 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastattack View Post
Not to be disrespectful, but seriously, at the First Congregational Church down the street, it literally means that LGBTQ are welcome and accepted, as is. Big sign out front says so.
Maybe they recognize that God has promised not to drown them too!
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:41 PM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,246
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

^^^lol
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:41 PM
eta34's Avatar
eta34 eta34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,257
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Maybe they recognize that God has promised not to drown them too!
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. No snark...legitimate question. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:29 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. No snark...legitimate question. Thanks.
We're talking about rainbows in Genesis 9. He pointed out that a local church is showing a rainbow and welcoming the LGBTQ to their church. I was just kidding that maybe they use the rainbow to signify that they understand that in spite of their sin, God has not chosen to drown them all.

I think you understand that unrepentant LGBTQ is not accepted in most Christian churches - the ones that properly interpret God's word.

Of course, I don't deserve that last breath I just took either.



edit: dropped "chosen" in orig.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther

Last edited by billvau; 12-05-2018 at 4:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:49 PM
eta34's Avatar
eta34 eta34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,257
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
We're talking about rainbows in Genesis 9. He pointed out that a local church is showing a rainbow and welcoming the LGBTQ to their church. I was just kidding that maybe they use the rainbow to signify that they understand that in spite of their sin, God has not to drown them all.

I think you understand that unrepentant LGBTQ is not accepted in most Christian churches - the ones that properly interpret God's word.

Of course, I don't deserve that last breath I just took either.
Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:52 PM
Fastattack's Avatar
Fastattack Fastattack is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Central Arizona (formerly So Cal)
Posts: 820
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
We're talking about rainbows in Genesis 9. He pointed out that a local church is showing a rainbow and welcoming the LGBTQ to their church. I was just kidding that maybe they use the rainbow to signify that they understand that in spite of their sin, God has not to drown them all.

I think you understand that unrepentant LGBTQ is not accepted in most Christian churches - the ones that properly interpret God's word.

Of course, I don't deserve that last breath I just took either.
You said it better than I ever could. Much appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-02-2019, 1:13 AM
Nasc50 Nasc50 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 112
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
We're talking about rainbows in Genesis 9. He pointed out that a local church is showing a rainbow and welcoming the LGBTQ to their church. I was just kidding that maybe they use the rainbow to signify that they understand that in spite of their sin, God has not chosen to drown them all.

I think you understand that unrepentant LGBTQ is not accepted in most Christian churches - the ones that properly interpret God's word.

Of course, I don't deserve that last breath I just took either.



edit: dropped "chosen" in orig.
Have to disagree about not deserving that last breath statement. If you have confessed jesus lord and saviour and repented for your sins. You are covered by the blood of Christ and made righteousness of Christ. Saying what you said diminishes what Christ did at the cross for you. Those in Christ Jesus have no condemnation on them.

Last edited by Nasc50; 03-02-2019 at 1:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-02-2019, 4:54 AM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasc50 View Post
Have to disagree about not deserving that last breath statement. If you have confessed jesus lord and saviour and repented for your sins. You are covered by the blood of Christ and made righteousness of Christ. Saying what you said diminishes what Christ did at the cross for you. Those in Christ Jesus have no condemnation on them.
Sorry, but you didn't deserve that last breath you just took. Do you understand grace? Grace is "undeserved favor/merit." Grace has to do with our guilt of sin (mercy has to do with our pitiful condition due to sin).

You are saved by grace:

Eph2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

You now stand in grace:

Ro5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

You do ministry grace:

1 Co3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
1 Co15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

And lots, lots more. It is by grace that you live now.

And, are you looking for to the return of Jesus Christ? Are you hoping He appears in the air to take you home? What exactly are you hoping for / looking for? Peter tells the answer and its the answer of all the OT Prophets:

1 Pe1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

They prophesized that the return of Christ and the final part of our salvation will be all of grace - and that's what we are waiting for. They prophesized of the "grace to come to you." Look forward to more grace.

My salvation past, present, and future is ALL grace. It is ALL of Jesus Christ. He gets ALL the glory - past, present, and future. I was saved by grace, live by grace, and look forward to more grace. It doesn't diminish Him at all - it gives Him ALL the glory.

That last breath I took was ALL because of grace.

Maranatha, Lord Jesus!
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-02-2019, 6:26 AM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 2,523
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

God says what He means, and means what He says. If He didn't mention it, or talk about it, it's probably not important.

Last edited by Sailormilan2; 03-02-2019 at 7:28 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-02-2019, 6:35 AM
jarhead714 jarhead714 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: O.C. CA
Posts: 4,049
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

ROY G BIV. That acronym still cracks me up. Rolls right off the toungue down into the old No.2 Dixon Ticonderoga and right onto the correct bubble of the Scantron.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-03-2019, 11:42 AM
Just Dave Just Dave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 7,260
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

God said it would be a sign. A sign is something you can see.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:18 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.