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Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. From a plain reading, it says that anyone who stands up to their government is going against God's will. Of course, this doesn't go very well with how our nation was founded. How do you justify standing up to a corrupt government in the face of what is written? |
#2
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Acts 4:19–20
19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for lwe cannot but speak of what mwe have seen and heard.” Acts 5:29 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, g“We must obey God rather than men.
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RKBA Clock: Free Vespuchia! |
#3
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I think it is a twofold passage. Firstly, I look at it from the perspective that the governing authority is either A) Acting in accordance with God's will, so rebeling against them is rebeling against God. Or B) They are not in accordance with God's will, but are being used to advance His plan, so rebeling is working counter to God.
Secondly, it is very possible that Paul wrote this to guard against the letter being intercepted by Roman authorities, so that the new church wouldn't draw any additional unwanted attention or persecution. |
#4
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In a government by the people the people are the governing authority and those elected to office do the peoples bidding. So when the government becomes corrupt and no longer listens to the people it is they who are sinning.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
#5
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<"(((><
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
#7
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If you're looking in the Bible for a consistent program for how to respond to the prevailing government, you'll be sorely disappointed.
If your government oppresses you, you have Biblical precedent for: Mass emigration Hostile Takeover of new lands Genocide Killing of newborns (well, you can say God did it) Joining up with the ruling government Rising up against the ruling government Paul had a different objective then Jesus. Jesus was an insurrectionist hoping to take back the throne of David from the hands of Rome and the ruling authorities (who were appointed by Rome). He failed & was executed for his crime. Paul was trying to spread some of the teachings of Jesus but had a very different idea of Jesus, owing to the fact that he never actually met the guy. Paul needed followers. But he would have been executed too if he gave the same message as Jesus. So he changed things a little, making Jesus into "The Christ." The Christ was more spiritual and had a spiritual message, not one about the here and now. This was more palatable to Rome. I don't think Paul was disingenuous about this, though. I think he honestly believed it. Either way, his objective was different than Jesus's -- convert Romans into Christians. To do that, you have to fly under the radar of Roman suspicion. So telling people to submit to the authorities is just good wisdom. It keeps people from starting fights and having the whole movement killed in its infancy. I'd say the same applies today. If the authorities confront you on something, just comply. Things get ugly fast if you resist. |
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Romans 13 is correct. The American Revolution was not a biblically-supported revolution. The Bible only supported one revolution - and that was back in the OT and had to do with preserving the line of Christ.
Think about the times of the New Testament under Rome. And, yet, you don't see politics, revolution, even social change, as topics concerning Christians. No time to write now. Can put more later, if necessary!
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
#9
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But the big picture here is a dictatorship vs a free nation, oppressive vs non oppressive governments etc... Standing up to a murderous regime in self defense is acceptable. Evil nations such as North Korea, Cuba, current Venezuela etc... are all evil which God fearing people can stand up to. I believe these are just some biblical verses that help one distinguish the difference between good and bad people at heart, but also corrupt governments that would not be sanctioned from God, but rather satan himself: 2 Peter 2:19 ESV They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 2 Peter 1:4 ESV By which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. Galatians 6:8 ESV For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
#10
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Ro13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. That says ALL governing authorities. You added "righteous" - it's not there. Where in the gospels do you see our Lord Jesus do anything except submit to governing authorities - and He was under dictators. Tough passage to accept but it's God's word/world. My primary citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20) and here I am an alien, a stranger (1 Peter 1:1, 2:11). Peter's passage below is only about government also: 1 Pe2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. "every" = all governments. I'm teaching 1 Peter 2:18-21 tomorrow. 2:13-17 were the past 2-3 teachings! Spent a lot of time going through these passages and Romans 13...
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther Last edited by billvau; 05-06-2019 at 12:42 PM.. Reason: can't spell |
#11
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Mark 12:17 is one of the most famous concerning what our responsibilities are:
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. |
#13
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As Christians, we may defend ourselves against wicked evil people, be it individually or with evil governments. Christians have a right to arm themselves (Luke 22:36–38) and what’s the difference between fighting off one attacker or a government’s “army” attacking and oppressing its people? Not only are we to take care of our individual selves and families lives, but we also have an obligation to preserve the body and life of other people. This means defending ourselves from evil, whether it’s one person or a large evil government that’s hell bent on harming its people. Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger: “Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.” Wickedness runs in all forms, including government. Are you saying we can’t revolt against this type of evil and tyrannical government? So Jews nor anyone against the Nazis couldn’t revolt to Hitler because you think it’s biblically forbidden to do so? Were the innocent Cambodians forbidden biblically to stand up to the Khmer Rouge under the slaughtering monster Pol Pot? One must be thoroughly confused of the passages if you’re unable to discern God’s message about “delivering them out of the hand of the wicked.” It’s basic good vs evil and we are not to embrace, nor support evil (including evil governments). Romans 13 also says, “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." Again, Paul is saying in the Bible that good “rulers” (government) are there to protect “good” people. Whereas “Bad” rulers (government) do the opposite toward their people. Good government is NOT a terror to good works. So when an evil government is full of tyrannical injustices, destruction and murderous appetites, Christians are not bound by the Lord to submit anylonger to their oppressive governments. Paul deliberately broke the law in Acts 18:13, “Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.” Paul’s message is to obey God and not truly evil men in power of an earthly throne! Thus, sometimes Christians must rebel against man in order to obey God. This is acceptable.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< Last edited by TrailerparkTrash; 05-11-2019 at 2:02 AM.. |
#14
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# 11, 12, & 13 are right on the mark. As far as this will go, I absolutely believe that God Almighty was the inspiration for the writing of the Declaration of Independence as well the US Constitution. Do a re read of the Mayflower Compact as well. Notice the first six words.
Psalm 1 |
#15
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God bless,
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
#16
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
#17
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For example, you wrote:
"Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger: 'Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.'” So, what does this verse mean in context? Who is it applied to- in context? Here's a meme that I just saw on Facebook. Please don't make it yours in practice: "I can do all things through a verse taken out of context." God bless and have a blessed day of worship, Bill
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
#18
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
#19
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Please respond to the questions instead of turning on the person. God bless, Bill
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
#20
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I think Romans is a difficult book, one which I prefer to look at with the help of good commentaries. Recently I just read through it again, and as a result bought RC Sproul's commentary.
Regarding the comment in post #18, I fail to see how this is obedient to the very clear command from Ephesians 4: Quote:
Regarding Romans 13, there are many issues raised in this thread. Since it is on CG, "The Home of the California Firearms Owner's Resistance," and I have thought about this every time I read the passage in question, how does it pertain to firearms laws, particularly the nutty laws we have here in California? The colonists who rebelled against Britain had a nuanced argument for their side. Quote:
As an aside, I'm sure we all know committed Christians who avoid any external Christian identifiers on their cars (bumper stickers, whatever) because they admit that their driving is a poor witness, and they routinely drive above the posted limit. Possibly some are even here on this forum. I think that God himself could send angels to drive at the posted limits around southern CA and they would be unable to keep a count of the number of middle fingers, angry glares, and four-letter words directed at them for being obedient to the law. I'd probably be among the guilty. We all pick and choose what commands we will obey, even when it comes to Biblical commands, and we will all stand to give an account one day. But some comments from thoughtful people who have immersed themselves in the word of God may be helpful. Quote:
I think you will find a lot of common ground.
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#21
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About answering the question and what you seem to have difficulty defending your stance on when it comes to Romans 13, vs 1-5. I’ve alreqdy asked you about Paul defying and breaking the law that the government imposed in an earlier post, yet you didn’t respond. Please explain how Romans 13 conflicts with Christian missionaries that go to places like communist China and DEFY the government by preaching the gospel??? What about Christians that defy Islamic government law in places such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea? According to you, they are defying what’s said in Romans 13 and also according to you, that is not permitted. After all, according to you, “government” is government, regardless of type, right? I say defiance is CLEARLY permitted to defy those unjust, tyrannical and evil governments and I back it with scripture. Your turn. I’ll keep going with another biblical example here. What about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, defying the government of King Nebuchadnezzar? The King was the ruler of his corrupt government with corrupt laws. How do you explain the revolt of those three men and a presumed “improper” conflict with Romans 13 in the NT? Then there’s the American revolution which was about a group of men (many Christian) that rejected a tyrannical British rule, then eventually founded the birth of American under a Judeo Christian principle. Under your interpretation, they defied the principles of Romans 13. Again in summary, Romans 13:1-7 is directed for “good” government (from God) and all of its principles and precepts when maintaining law and order. Romans 13 wasn’t meant to thwart off “good” people from turning against an evil tyrannical and maniacal government.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
#22
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
#23
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This is the first time I’ve seen an easy resignation from an argument. Facts are always difficult to refute in debate.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< Last edited by TrailerparkTrash; 05-27-2019 at 7:57 PM.. |
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Proverbs 26:4-5
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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The gist of romans is to not be a rebel. Romans suggests anti is not recomended. However, the American Revolution for example is a righteous movement against oppression.
The original Christians without a name at the time called the "way". May have been labeled as rebels by Roman leaders. However again oppressive goverment is not what Romans referd to.
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God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life. John 3:16 NRA,,, Lifer United Air Epic Fail Video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg |
#26
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I believe that the Scriptures clearly teach in numerous passages that God rules in the affairs of men. He does so by what we may refer to as "providence." I believe that in Romans it is clear that God expects the Christian to be obedient to the Government he lives under, so long as it is a Government that encourages good behavior and not a Government that encourages evil.
God does not ever desire us to live in contradiction to our Christian convictions. "But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge…" - Acts 4:19 We must always be ready to obey God in spite of the consequences! In Romans 13:1-7, God has told us to obey the leaders of our nation. However, if they command us to do something that is against God’s will, then we must put God first. When the apostles were commanded by the rulers to stop preaching about Jesus, they said: “We must obey God rather than men.” - Acts 5:29 The scriptures make it abundantly clear that God desires His people first to be obedient to Him. So what if one’s government passes laws contrary to God’s Word? What should be done when the righteous find themselves living in an unrighteous society? Does one’s responsibility toward their government change depending upon who is in office or which party is in charge? The faithful Christian understands that he must show respect toward an instituted government. He strives to be a model citizen and is a shining example of Christianity. He gives honor to the ruler and seeks to be perpetually obedient to the civil magistrates. He is not, however, blindly obedient to the civil magistrates. There are situations when the Christian not only may disobey but actually must disobey the civil magistrates. Whenever a civil government requires one to do what God forbids or forbids one to do what God commands, then that person has an obligation to God to disobey the government in that point. Daniel refused to bow down and worship king Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3). Instead he maintained his faith in God and accepted the consequences from the king. Esther, at great risk of her life, went before king Ahasuerus to stand up for the Lord’s people (Esther 5). When the rulers commanded Peter and John to cease preaching and teaching in the name of Jesus they responded, “Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye." We, as Christians, need to work within the laws of this land to make sure that Christian principles are not legislated away. We need to pray for our government officials that they may fulfill the tasks that God has given them; to be ministers of God for good (Romans 13:4). When electing leaders we need to carefully consider the moral character of the candidate above all other factors such as race, gender and even political affiliation. But regardless of who is in office we need to give honor to the position when honor is due. God has determined to leave it up to certain governments to pass laws that allow their citizens to defend themselves, and those governments allow citizens to use guns to defend themselves. Where are we?
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Mark 16:16 Last edited by WASR10; 05-28-2019 at 4:57 PM.. |
#27
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#28
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Pretty simple, really. Enemies, foreign and domestic.
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“Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mould-breaking champions exist as living proof to those who need it that the tyranny of 'the rat race' is not yet final.” Hunter S. Thompson The Great Shark Hunt: Strange Tales From a Strange Time |
#29
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It alwys cracks me up at how the atheist types hate Him and He is such a nothing to them that they can't sut up about Him. They have institutes dedicated to the proof of His non-existance. So, they still can't shut up about Him. There must be something there. Torment must suck.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
#30
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Paul spent the first 12 chapters laying out the glories of the Gospel and how God is sovereign over all. Back in the day when Romans 13 was written Christians were not concerned with being citizens of Rome. They were concerned with being citizens of heaven and under God's authority alone. Paul reminded them to work under the current system for the good of all.
Does not a father have authority over his family? A boss over his employees? What should a child or wife do if the father becomes abusive? What about the employee who works under an abusive employer? Furthermore Romans 13 lays out the limits of god ordained government powers. Is states the magistrates has power over civil matters and that it is not a terror to good works. If the government becomes a terror to good works and goes beyond civil issues, the government is not ordained by God. Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation Finally- Our government is based on the US Constitution. the Constitution is the highest authority of the land, not the god forsaken asshats in political offices.
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I want gay married couples to be able to protect their marijuana plants with guns |
#31
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Chuck Baldwin once said:
It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect. Many historians have documented how the Nazi regime in Germany weaponized Romans 13 to cement strong domestic support for the Third Reich. Although I once read a history of MI6, the British Secret Intelligence Service, that detailed how they vetted potential double agents of the Nazi regime. The most accurate predictor of how good they would be was if they were a member of the Evangelical German Protestant Church. So how does that jibe with Romans 13? You can watch Chuck Baldwin talk about this on YouTube. Although you'd better do it quick before they take him down because of his "extremist views."
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#33
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John 3:16 |
#36
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I believe in general the principle of gov is from God but I don't believe absolutely every gov is established by God. I believe christians should be law abiding as much as possible and also be at peace with other men when we can.
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