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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#81
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With H.R.38, I finally see some practical possibility of my right to carry being restored, in this case, the bill has a fatal flaw that need to be corrected ,or for those of us in the most resistant states, it will not be effective. It would be a crying shame to come this far, and still far short of what we need to actually exercise our rights.
The bill, as it currently stands, states: "(c)(1) A person who carries or possesses a concealed handgun in accordance with subsections (a) and (b) may not be arrested or otherwise detained for violation of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof related to the possession, transportation, or carrying of firearms..." "(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that— (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" Clearly the intent is to force states to allow its citizens to carry with out of state permits. However, about a minute and a half after this bill passes, California (shortly followed by other anti gun states) will get around the first clause by declaring any handgun carried under an out-of-state permit to be a "public nuisance" and simply confiscate it without any arrest, detention, or any other court proceeding where the citizen might raise a defense, just as they can today with a legally owned standard capacity grandfathered magazine. In many cases, under the California's roster, these guns are quite literally irreplaceable. They might seize your gun and wait years to return it, if at all, on the pretense that they are investigating the "legitimacy" of your permit or whether it has been used in a crime. The state might even up the ante by declaring the car you are transporting it in to be a public nuisance and taking that too. Don't laugh too hard, they can already do that to your car parked in your private driveway if it has a flat tire or dirty windshield. They might also try to take your property under some criminal asset forfeiture excuse where they never have to prove any underlying charge. Perhaps they will try assessing a fine or suspending your driver's license. None of these measures constitutes a prohibited arrest or detention, yet will make the right that the bill intends to restore effectively unusable. Section (c)(1) needs to be amended to explicitly prohibit any penalty whatsoever, including any seizure or forfeiture of any property. Section (b)(1) needs to be amended to clarify that while private property owners may ban weapons, that Section (c)(1) still applies, no governmental penalty may be applied to any violation, and the property owner's remedy is limited to asking you to leave, or else the criminalization of carry on private property against the owner's wishes will be the government's next step. So that covers the House bill, and the Senate bill, while less specific, contains the same loopholes I suspect. Since Congress members and Senators try very hard to insulate themselves from input from those citizens who are affected by their laws but are not their constituents, what is the best way to get this critical message to the various bills' sponsors or co-sponsors?
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I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#82
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Talk to the workgroup that already is concerned about weaknesses in the bill. Sarabellum, Kcbrown, and I are on that list. Criticism is the worst when it comes from a million different people on a million different things with a million different remedies. It puts the onus of what and how to fix on the person you criticized, and makes them feel like crap.
Come to a working group where we have a single unified list of criticism, what to strike, what to add, and a concise and consistent list of reasoning.
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#83
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Wow, I had no idea such working groups existed at calguns. Those are all names I respect greatly. Rather than clutter up this thread, I will PM you and find out more about how I can participate and what value I might bring to the effort.
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I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#84
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That bit about the state declaring the person's firearm a "public nuisance" and confiscating it is a GREAT point that we should build a defense against. Thanks for the mention of that. We want to engineer an unassailable bill and need exactly that kind of feedback.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
#85
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Still at 36 co-sponsors....
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#86
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20 days later and still at 36 co-sponsors....
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 05-08-2017 at 5:22 PM.. |
#87
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Bad news for this (and the House) bill. VA Senator Mark Warner, who has voted for reciprocity twice in the past, has done a 180 and now opposes it.
I don't see 60 votes in the Senate now. http://www.newsweek.com/senator-mark...matters-594776 |
#88
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Look at that creep right behind him... |
#89
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Shocking. A "pro-gun" democrat who voted for reciprocity when it had no chance of becoming law turned against it when it has a chance of becoming law.
Color me shocked. Yet another reason we need to clean out as many democrats as possible. I wasn't party-ideologically based before this election. Now? Get rid of all of them if possible. It's the only way.
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#90
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#91
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Sen. Mark Warner (Dem) was just reelected so he figures in 5 years the voters will have forgotten. But he forgets the NRA never forgets (or forgives!).
Plus, this won't be going away. It will continue to be pushed by the NRA until it passes and will be used in their rankings of Senators and Reps. Each time it comes to a vote it smokes out more antis for the NRA to take down at the next election. Lather. Rinse. Repeat until we win! Plus, this just puts more pressure on Trump and the Repubs to get more good judges on the federal bench, incl SCOTUS.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 05-09-2017 at 5:24 PM.. |
#92
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8 more days and still 36 co-sponsors.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#93
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Almost a month later and it's now at 37 cosponsors.
At this pace I'll be CCWing in CA when I'm ...
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#94
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I think this count is largely irrelevant. The GOP will support it, so now the question is finding a way to get it through with 51 votes or do something to get 8 Dems to vote for it, like adding some feel good legislation that'll make it look bad to vote against.
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#95
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FWIW: As a Texan who carries every day, I will only say that anyone interested in their 2nd Amendment rights should be extremely wary of anything that is proposed or said by Senator Cornyn. He is only interested in getting re-elected so he will say/do anything to assure that happens. IOW, like most members of Congress, he's a politician rather than a real representative of his constituents. JMO
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#96
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A month and a half later and still only 37 cosponsors in the US Senate....
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#97
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Don't expect this Senate bill (which does not have non-resident reciprocity) to move in the Senate Judiciary Cmte until after the House passes their version (which has no-resident reciprocity). (The House is expected to pass their version before the New Year. I think the House's last day in session before the Christmas break is Thursday, Dec. 14th.)
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-02-2017 at 11:08 AM.. |
#98
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Bloomberg has said he's willing to spend $25,000,000 of his own money just to stop national reciprocity. The fight in the Senate will be the real fight, and this bill doesn't even have non-resident CCW reciprocity. (That we'll need to "win" during the conference committee if and when S. 446 passes.) I predict the fight in the Senate will be "no holds barred" and be the toughest fight over gun rights/control since Clinton's 1994 AWB. "Be Prepared!" ETA: IIRC, $24,000,000 is what the NRA spent in the entire last election cycle to support Trump. I think it was $14M directly supporting Trump and $10M attacking opponents. Bloomberg is willing to spend all of that just to stop one bill (national reciprocity) in one chamber (the Senate). That will be a HUGE, even historic, political attack campaign. Also, if the final bill does NOT include non-resident CCW reciprocity with your state of residency, think of the absurd results. Let's say I in CA and a friend in MD both get non-resident FL CCWs. We will both be able to CC in all states and D.C. except I'll be able to CC in MD, but he can't even though he lives there and he'll be able to CC in CA and I can't even though I live here. This despite BOTH of us satisfying the same qualifications criteria (passed the same background check, covered the same material in the same amount of class hours, satisfied the same safe gun handling requirement, etc.) to be issued a non-resident FL CCW. That is the epitome of an "irrational" law.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-08-2017 at 9:18 PM.. |
#99
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Looks like Cornyn may be willing to throw his own national reciprocity bill under the bus to ensure FixNICS gets passed...
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More at: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politi...rry/index.html It may be that all national reciprocity does this legislative session is smoke out anti Dems and RINOs so that we can defeat and replace them in Nov 2018 with TEA Party/pro-Trump GOPers. Then, reintroduce the bills with the new Congress in Jan 2019. "Lather. Rinse. Repeat" until we win!
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-06-2017 at 7:46 PM.. |
#102
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So let me make sure I understand this:
House bill has non-resident reciprocity. So I can get an out-of-state CCW as a non-resident in, let's say, Florida. And that would allow me to carry in places like CA (SF, LA, etc.) and NYC? And the reason this bill might have a leg up on the Senate's version is because it has the FixNICS thing attached to it? But the Senate's version does not have the NICS part. And in this version as a CA resident, I can still get a CCW in Florida, which would allow me to carry in other states, but I still would not be able to carry in my home state of California? Strikes me as being so weird. It'd be like if CA suddenly said they aren't going to honor out-of-state driver's licenses. |
#103
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I've read/skimmed MANY MSM articles since the bill passed and one of the memes that the PTB are trying to use to get Americans (and the world) outraged at this bill is the idea that after 2 major shooting massacres (and a 3rd near miss in the Congressional baseball shooting), is that the first gun bill the House passes after them has nothing to do with stopping such massacres, but actually will put more guns on the streets! That the ONLY reason congressional reps voted for the bill is because they're in the pocket of the NRA.... Actually, this "bill" now will do 3 things: (1) national reciprocity, so more CCWers are "on the streets" and, like in the baseball shooting and the Texas church shooting, both massacres were stopped/cut short by Good Guys with Guns (GGWGs) intervening (rarely mentioned by the MSM). So that 1/3rd actually "helps" prevent massacres. (2) The Fix NICS bills is related to those shootings since the BG in the TX church shooting would NOT have been able to buy his guns as he did if NICS was "fixed." And (3), the LV shooter used "bump stocks" to increase his rate of fire, so the bump stock study part of it also directly related to those shootings. Correct, and Cornyn does NOT want to add it to his Senate reciprocity bill. He'd rather have the FixNICS passed and reciprocity fail than have both together and risk getting neither. My guess is most of us would rather they "risk" winning both by keeping them together! Quote:
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-09-2017 at 8:02 AM.. |
#104
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Those who think that we will have this new "legal standing" from a bad bill are fooling themselves. Look at the recent court cases such as Peruta, to see what will happen to this new "legal standing" after a bad bill. |
#105
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Look at Heller and McDonald to see what happens if The Donald/Pence gets to replace Kennedy and RBG or another anti.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#106
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The HR 38 weak link IMO is allowing CA residents to bypass their own permit and carry on anothers. |
#107
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 12-09-2017 at 9:33 AM.. |
#108
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/u...ciprocity.html
2 more Dem senators who were YES votes in 2013 now are NO votes, no mention if that's the whole House bill w/FIX NICS or just standalone reciprocity. If that's the case I don't know where the votes are made up to reach 60. |
#109
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. |
#110
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Don't forget 14 Repubs in the House voted AGAINST HR38 and 6 Dems voted FOR it.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-11-2017 at 7:17 AM.. |
#111
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Their opposition seemed to be because of the fix NICS portion, not reciprocity.
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#112
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At this point, nothing to keep McConnell from doing away with the filibuster on legislation.
Given what we know about how dirty the Dems are willing to play, perhaps Mitch may decide to tell Schumer ll bets are off. The D's have WAY more seats to defend in 2018, many in States where Trump won. I think we can get to 60 - in either case we need to make clear that failure in the Senate is not an option.
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Proud CGN Contributor USMC Pistol Team Alumni - Distinguished Pistol Shot Owner of multiple Constitutionally protected tools |
#113
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https://www.ammoland.com/2017/12/fou...#axzz510CIENJD Last edited by dfletcher; 12-11-2017 at 3:33 PM.. |
#114
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"Despite last week's fanfare, any Senate vote on concealed carry is not expected until next spring, sources said Monday."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...ate-fight.html |
#115
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FOXNews, not a Leftist MSM, is calling the AL special election for the Dem.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-projects.html That makes the slim chance the GOP had of winning just plain ol' national reciprocity (S. 446), less likely and the chance of winning national reciprocity that would directly help us in CA to use non-CA CCW to carry in CA (HR38) even less likely. Bloomberg, Feinstein, Schumer, and the other antis must all be celebrating.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-12-2017 at 7:26 PM.. |
#116
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Let's face it, if he had anything positive to say about guns it would have helped him in AL. |
#117
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We're going to have to lean heavy on the RINOs up for election this round in the hopes that get with the program.
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Hauoli Makahiki Hou ------- |
#119
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Last week, 4 AL residents asked a court for an order to require the state to keep the electronic images of the ballots for 6 months in case of an election challenge. (The polls take electronic images of the ballots, destroy the ballots and then make a count of the votes off of the electronic images.) A court issued that order on Monday. The AL Supreme Court stayed that order on Tuesday, the morning of the election! I have not been able to find out if they gave a reason.
Does staying that order make ANY sense??? What's the cost of enforcing the order: just keeping electronic images on the cloud or harddrive somewhere for 6 months. What's the potential harm of not enforcing the order: possible corruption in the election of a US Senator! http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign...ords-in-senate ETA: Seems like that report of automatic destruction of physical ballots is wrong. (emphasis in the below added) Quote:
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-13-2017 at 8:00 AM.. |
#120
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The momentum is now.... Odd. |
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