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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:25 AM
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Default Identifying yourself as a good -gun- when SHTF

with all the recent shooting that have been popping up in the news lately i can't help but challenge myself in what i would/should do if i was LTC'ing and caught in a similar situation.

Of course its unlikely to happen but there are numerous scenarios that can be thought of and mostly my objective is to GTFO alive (I'M not sorry) but the one that troubles me the most as a LTC holder is getting shot by the good guys upon their arrive to an active shooter scene.

E.g. Being in a huge department store, mall, theater ect. with a active shooter out of your direct sight and knowing that police is responding and entering all around you. While you sit there with your weapon drawn in plain cloths concerns me.


am i alone?
is this a accepted risk you take?
have you thought of effective ways of discretely identify yourself to first responders?

I frequently wear a 5.11 sabre jacket with hidden identification flaps, would it be wise to have them screen printed LTC/CCW?

seems too ?
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2013, 3:09 AM
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As soon as the police arrive you need to holster and let professionals do their job. If you hear police coming and you cannot holster, drop it and keep BOTH hands where they are easily seen. Respond immediately to any and all requests / demands. This is all common sense I would hope... An LTC is a self defense option, you don't even have to pull in the first place, there's no responsibility on your part.

For myself if I assess the situation, if I have a clear shot I'll take it. Otherwise its GTFO and help as many as possible. I'd hate to shoot an innocent who is trying to run away and gets in the line of fire.

Anything identifying you as an LTC person is childish, bordering on the LTC badge crowd. All your doing is telling the police you have a gun when there's an active shooter in the area. Just plain silly imo
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2013, 8:43 AM
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If you are CCW and an active shooter opens up, if you decide to engage, then do so, but reholster once the threat has been mitigated. If you are not immediately engaged, and are not in a position to engage said shooter, you should not have it unholstered, especially if PD is on scene/entering all around you. After Columbine, most departments transitioned to a "get in and get the shooter now" mode instead of a "gather the troops first" mode. They're coming in hot, and anyone showing a gun is likely to get ventilated.
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Old 01-03-2013, 9:06 AM
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You bring up a Valid concern ... This product was mentioned at my CCW class ...http://www.dsmsafety.com/ccw.html

Last edited by becxltoo984; 01-03-2013 at 9:09 AM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 9:21 AM
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Don't shoot me!! Please recognize my beauty pageant sash identifying me as a CCW holder!
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2013, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane916 View Post
Don't shoot me!! Please recognize my beauty pageant sash identifying me as a CCW holder!


Exactly ! It was suggested that you buy the security one since most don't know what CCW means ....
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  #7  
Old 01-03-2013, 9:27 AM
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Given the OP's premise, getting shot by the good guys is a small consideration..........for me, being old and white. I think kissing the pavement or doing the convict sit against the wall would work for most.
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  #8  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:12 AM
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I like my Sabre jacket but never once considered using the panels.....
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  #9  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:18 PM
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In other words...there are NO "good guns" when the police arrive. They WILL engage anyone with a weapon.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
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OP...if and when you get a LTC,ask that question in class. You will then get the answer you seek,maybe.
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  #11  
Old 01-03-2013, 1:06 PM
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All those sashes/headbands/badges/ and bedazzled bracelets make no sense if the bad guys can also purchase them.
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  #12  
Old 01-03-2013, 1:50 PM
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Default Silly

Sashes, bandanas, hats and badges that supposedly identify you as being some sort of "good guy" with a gun have got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen.
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Old 01-05-2013, 4:07 PM
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I've seen the same question posed on a LEO forum, and consensus was that as long as you have a weapon in your hands when the police shows up you have a non-zero chance of getting shot. Heck, LEOs shoot other LEOs on occasion.
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Old 01-05-2013, 4:07 PM
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I've seen the same question posed on a LEO forum, and consensus was that as long as you have a weapon in your hands when the police shows up you have a non-zero chance of getting shot. Heck, LEOs shoot other LEOs on occasion.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:58 PM
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Also, how do you identify yourself to the guy across the room who hears shots and sees you with your gun drawn, and decides to shoot you?
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2013, 8:47 AM
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There needs to be a sticky for things never to do or even ask about in an open forum. LTC/CCW badges, pocket flaps, satin sashes, tiaras, subcutaneous RFID chips, etc should be up near the top of the list.
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2013, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
There needs to be a sticky for things never to do or even ask about in an open forum. LTC/CCW badges, pocket flaps, satin sashes, tiaras, subcutaneous RFID chips, etc should be up near the top of the list.
+1000!
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  #18  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:22 PM
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There really is no foolproof way of identifying yourself in such situation...there are enough friendly fire situations existing among LEOs to make that pretty clear; that is why SWAT members wear such large letters on their vest.

If you decide to draw your CCW in this situation there are 5 possible outcomes
1. You shoot the shooter and save everyone - good
2. You shoot another CCW who is trying to engage the shooter - bad
3. You shoot at the shooter and hit an innocent - bad
4. You are shot by another CCW, who thinks you are the shooter - bad and likely painful
5. You are shot by responding officers - bad , painful and likely fatal

How do you feel about a 20% chance of a good outcome
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2013, 4:16 PM
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I know it's kindve off topic but you're title got me thinking about how we would know who good guys were in a bug out sutuation.
I mean that would be a tense situation every time

What's the protocol on approaching another armed group whilst showing you're a good guy ?
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2013, 4:26 PM
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If I am not shooting or clearing my firearm is holstered and concealed.
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  #21  
Old 01-08-2013, 9:13 AM
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^ this even after I shoot no need to display to everyone I have a gun. More so after I have unloaded the attacker will not be a threat with extra .45 size vents in the chest
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:30 AM
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Massad Ayoob, in one of his videos, says call 9-1-1 immediately after the shooting and describe yourself. When police show up, they can recognize you as the caller. He also says put your gun away. If you have a gun in your hands, the police will immediately identify you as a threat and will engage.
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2013, 9:41 AM
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^ This

And for the love of god. If you have a "CCW" Patch, badge, etc BURN and/or dispose of it.

Unless you like being characterized as a vigilante, yahoo, wannabe sheriff.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2013, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMFdevildoc View Post

And for the love of god. If you have a "CCW" Patch, badge, etc BURN and/or dispose of it.
Oh, you mean all those "Shoot Me First" signs?

Yeah, burn all your idiot-trinkets. At the very best, they are embarrassing!
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:56 AM
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Remember, the ltc is for your protection, you are not Leo. If you choose to engage the shooter, you are totally responsible for the aftermath, you have no legal protection. If you are ok with that, then engage. You may be sued for any missed rounds, you may be sued by the shooters family. You may have to move because of the press or those protesting you and what to did, think of Zimmerman. And the police may miss identify you as the shooter.

It's too much to think about when the time actually comes so, be trained, trained well, and draw a line in the sand, mentally, if its crossed, then act. It's not your responsibility to act, but it may be the right thing to do, no matter what you do, you will have to live with it, and you will be second guessed
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:04 AM
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ccw badge

lmao!
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:53 AM
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CCW tiaras...ROFLMAO!

But seriously? do they have these?
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2013, 5:29 PM
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Listen you ****ers, you screwheads... here is a man who would not take it anymore.
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Old 01-08-2013, 6:29 PM
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Listen you ****ers, you screwheads... here is a man who would not take it anymore.
Uh, what?
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Old 01-08-2013, 6:51 PM
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Listen you ****ers, you screwheads... here is a man who would not take it anymore.
Oh, 6:29 .. 90 minutes into happy hour. Now it makes sense.
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Old 01-08-2013, 7:50 PM
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Google it. :-)
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Old 01-08-2013, 8:26 PM
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Taxi Driver
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2013, 8:36 PM
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Quote:
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Google it. :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUBfzq8ysdg
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Old 10-30-2018, 2:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatterbox View Post
I've seen the same question posed on a LEO forum, and consensus was that as long as you have a weapon in your hands when the police shows up you have a non-zero chance of getting shot. Heck, LEOs shoot other LEOs on occasion.
I'm sorry to resurrect this thread, but with the continued trend of mass shootings, I wanted to revisit the topic of possible fratricide in a citizen response to an active shooter incident.

*****

For the first responders here, let's say you're rolling up to an active shooter incident. You have limited information; you just know that shots have been fired at the local elementary school and people are down.

You stack up, go through the front door, button-hook left, and see this:


(images from AmmoLand and SpecialTactics)

Alternatively, you see this:


(images from IMFDb and a private blog)

Does the low profile of the second pair give responding officers at least a few seconds of pause?

*****

We know that the appearance/perception of a weapon affects juries:
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09...armed-citizen/

Is the same true for law enforcement? Responding to an active shooter situation undoubtedly takes courage and dedication, but at the end of the day, police officers are still human. Could Pittsburgh (2018), Parkland (2018), Sutherland Springs (2017), Las Vegas (2017), Orlando (2016), San Bernardino (2015), etc. all have created a knee-jerk mental/visual association between AR-15s and mass shooters (not just for the media, but for first responders, too)?

And if it has, should that phenomenon influence weapons selection by non-LEOs who might intervene in an active shooting (e.g. are we better off responding with a deer rifle then a black rifle)? We modify our Glocks and ARs without a moment's hesitation if we think it'll give us even the slightest mechanical advantage. If a traditional/low profile gives us even a 5% psychological advantage (i.e. a responding LEO is less likely to think that we're the bad guy), isn't that more important than undercutting the trigger guard or stippling a grip?

*****

P.S. I know, I know: the historical consensus has been that if you decide to respond to an active shooter incident, you will do so with what you have on you (e.g. your CCW pistol). Running outside to your car to retrieve your trunk gun and then confronting the threat with said rifle/carbine/shotgun is a fantasy.

But maybe it's not so fanciful after all?

Scenario #1: "'In 2011 and 2012, Mr. Farook and Mr. Marquez planned...a rush-hour attack on State Route 91, a busy freeway.'....Consider a heavily traveled urban freeway...all it would take would be a terrorist driving a truck to simply turn the vehicle sharply and block all lanes of a traffic, perhaps having a similarly equipped accomplice do the same thing some distance behind....The terrorists could now dismount and shoot with impunity at the people in all of the stranded, boxed-in cars....In such a scenario, as long as you weren’t one of the closest cars to the terrorists, you might have time to access your stored long gun, make it ready, and then engage the terrorists with equivalent firepower and, more importantly, effective range."
https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress...-applications/

Scenario #2: "Just as Willeford reached the front yard of Fred and Kathleen Curnow, whose house faces the church entrance, a man wearing black body armor and a helmet with a visor emerged from the church. Willeford scrambled behind the front tire of Fred’s Dodge Ram. The gunman raised his pistol and fired three times. One bullet hit the truck. One hit the Dodge Challenger parked behind him. One hit the house. Willeford propped his AR-15 on the pickup’s hood and peered through the sight. He could see a holographic red dot on the man’s chest. He fired twice. He wasn’t sure he’d hit him, though he was later told that the man had contusions on his chest and abdomen consistent with getting shot while wearing body armor. Regardless, the gunman stopped shooting and ran for a white Ford Explorer that was idling outside the chapel, roughly twenty yards from where Willeford had positioned himself."
https://www.texasmonthly.com/article...s-mass-murder/
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Last edited by butlers; 10-30-2018 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 10-30-2018, 3:39 PM
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^ I'd tend to think the guy with the scatter gun in the crowded mall/shopping center/theater was the active shooter, more than I would the guy with the 5.11 gear and the black rifle, but that's just me. I think I'd probably see what the armed person was doing before I took action against them.

PS: I really enjoyed the article you cited with regard to jury bias on weapon appearance. Good read.

Last edited by bk23103; 10-30-2018 at 3:58 PM..
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Old 10-30-2018, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bk23103 View Post
^ I'd tend to think the guy with the scatter gun in the crowded mall/shopping center/theater was the active shooter, more than I would the guy with the 5.11 gear and the black rifle, but that's just me
Statistically, that doesn't make sense. Of the 16 mass shootings in the US since the turn of the century in which 10 or more people died, a shotgun was used in just three of them. An AR-15 was used in nine. A mass shooter is literally three times more likely to use a semi-automatic rifle than a shotgun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bk23103 View Post
I think I'd probably see what the armed person was doing before I took action against them.
I applaud you for your restraint, but not all first responders will exercise the same level of caution.
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Old 10-30-2018, 4:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butlers View Post
Statistically, that doesn't make sense. Of the 16 mass shootings in the US since the turn of the century in which 10 or more people died, a shotgun was used in just three of them. An AR-15 was used in nine. A mass shooter is literally three times more likely to use a semi-automatic rifle than a shotgun.
That may be true with regard to "mass shootings" but obviously far more acts of violence committed with firearms involve guns other than AR-15's. I will say that in my experience, whenever such a shooting takes place in a public place, it is treated as though it's going to be the next Aurora shooting until deemed otherwise. More than once in the last year in my city has such an incident been reported. This resulted in literally hundreds of law enforcement officers from numerous different state, local, and even federal agencies rolling up in various marked, unmarked, or even personal cars in different uniforms, 5.11 gear, plain clothes, raid vests, etc. Generally the only thing they had in common was they were all equipped with AR's.

Obviously that's not the ideal situation and in a perfect world, everyone would be in easily identifiable "good guy" uniforms, but that just doesn't happen. So still, I'd be more likely to suspect the scruffy guy in his Levis with a shotgun is the bad guy.
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Old 10-30-2018, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnaz View Post
ccw badge

lmao!
Yeah, isn't that what those ridiculous things are supposed to be for, lol?
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Old 10-30-2018, 4:26 PM
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Rule #1- listen to the Holy Ghost and follow the promptings.

I have been instructed by inspiration and audible intel in most of the deadliest gun robbery’s and fights for my life growing up in Inglewood.

Listen and OBEY!
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Old 10-30-2018, 4:55 PM
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If I clearly saw the active shooter and thought I could take them out I would. I am morally obligated. I would then re holster and take a protective position until I could identify myself to LEO’s.
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