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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 11-02-2018, 9:30 AM
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Default Private residence concealed carry

If you are at a friends house are you legally allowed to conceal carry? It is private property. Example; friend owns a home with an acre of land. Having a barbecue with some other people. You ask your friend if they have any problem with you carrying at their home even though you DO NOT have a concealed carry license and they say OK.

I realize no concealed carry license means no conceal carry in public.., but is a friends house considered the "public" since other people will be there? LIbrarian.., do you know if there is any legal precedent for this?
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Old 11-02-2018, 3:24 PM
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not a legal expert but only zoning ordinances can change the primary use of a parcel, so the mere presence of individuals on a private property should not change it otherwise.

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Old 11-02-2018, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nbphung View Post
not a legal expert but only zoning ordinances can change the primary use of a parcel, so the mere presence of individuals on a private property should not change it otherwise.

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Actually the problem is IIRC you are not allowed to Carry on Property "Open to the Public"

Question would be "Does Opening a house for a party = Open to the Public"

And the Answer is... I have no idea.


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Concealed is concealed.
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Old 11-02-2018, 3:40 PM
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Why would you even want to carry concealed at a house party at your friends house. Do you not trust his other friends.
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Old 11-02-2018, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodythedog View Post
Why would you even want to carry concealed at a house party at your friends house. Do you not trust his other friends.
There were a lot of shooting at parties. Drive by happened and party crashers shoot, also. I have seen many of them in certain neighborhoods.
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Old 11-02-2018, 4:42 PM
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There were a lot of shooting at parties. Drive by happened and party crashers shoot, also. I have seen many of them in certain neighborhoods.
All true. But if friends/acquaintances happen to be stuck "in certain neighborhoods", might want to invite them to parties elsewhere.

As always, the best defense against violence is to Not Be There. Sometimes, we don't get that choice.

PC 25605 authorizes carry by the property owner. I don't know if it has ever been tested whether that capability may be extended to guests. Makes sense to me that it would be ok, but being California, 'makes sense' and 'gun laws' seldom go together.

I don't see that having a gathering of friends would convert 'private' to 'public access'.

I would not have a problem saying 'ok' for a bbq in my fenced backyard here in Concord. And, I'd expect such guests of mine to stick to non-alcoholic beverages.

Seems a bit impractical - transport legally in locked case, stop in the house to uncase, load and put on holster; reverse after the event.
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Last edited by Librarian; 11-02-2018 at 5:02 PM..
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Old 11-02-2018, 4:55 PM
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logic tells me hosting a house party on private land, regardless if partygoers are friends and family or uninvited people, doesn't deem the property public space. this scenario probably has to do more with liability than firearm law. to the extent the property owner gave permission the concealment is defacto to 2A.

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Old 11-02-2018, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
All true. But if friends/acquaintances happen to be stuck "in certain neighborhoods", might want to invite them to parties elsewhere.

As always, the best defense against violence is to Not Be There. Sometimes, we don't get that choice.

PC 25605 authorizes carry by the property owner. I don't know if it has ever been tested whether that capability may be extended to guests. Makes sense to me that it would be ok, but being California, 'makes sense' and 'gun laws' seldom go together.

I don't see that having a gathering of friends would convert 'private' to 'public access'.

I would not have a problem saying 'ok' for a bbq in my fenced backyard here in Concord. And, I'd expect such guests of mine to stick to non-alcoholic beverages.

Seems a bit impractical - transport legally in locked case, stop in the house to uncase, load and put on holster; reverse after the event.
Are you making your tequila BBQ sauce? I'm in.
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Old 11-02-2018, 8:09 PM
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I am not finding anything that allows a property owner to grant permission to carry a loaded firearm, concealed or otherwise, on their property when no other exemptions apply. All the PC I found allows a property owner, resident (temporary or otherwise), etc to carry on that property. However you visiting a friend does not make you a temporary resident. And occupant perhaps, but not a resident.

I doubt that you'd catch flack for you as long as the property owner/resident has given you permission and can articulate that to the officers. But abide by the public vs private area legal defintions.
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Old 11-02-2018, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Agon3 View Post
If you are at a friends house are you legally allowed to conceal carry? It is private property. Example; friend owns a home with an acre of land. Having a barbecue with some other people. You ask your friend if they have any problem with you carrying at their home even though you DO NOT have a concealed carry license and they say OK.

I realize no concealed carry license means no conceal carry in public.., but is a friends house considered the "public" since other people will be there? LIbrarian.., do you know if there is any legal precedent for this?
It doesn’t appear to matter, as the statute PC 25605 appears to allow only the owner of the property to carry concealed.
Quote:
(a) Section 25400 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident, any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
That authority isn’t transferable to guests.
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Old 11-03-2018, 5:19 AM
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Originally Posted by micro911 View Post
There were a lot of shooting at parties. Drive by happened and party crashers shoot, also. I have seen many of them in certain neighborhoods.
Sounds like parties I like to go to!

Seriously why go to parties in neighborhoods like that?
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Old 11-03-2018, 6:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Agon3 View Post
Example; friend owns a home with an acre of land. Having a barbecue with some other people. You ask your friend if they have any problem with you carrying at their home even though you DO NOT have a concealed carry license and they say OK.
This has “wannabe operator” written all over it.
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Old 11-03-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
That authority isn’t transferable to guests.
I agree, that's the way to bet - but does anyone know for sure?

The OP asked
Quote:
I realize no concealed carry license means no conceal carry in public.., but is a friends house considered the "public" since other people will be there? LIbrarian.., do you know if there is any legal precedent for this?
and I certainly do not know.

There is an as-applied example, but probably not really pertinent here: gun stores.

In some places, some gun stores allow their employees - without CCW - to carry in the store. Anecdotally, their local PD seem OK with that. Lots of additional circumstantial baggage to that situation.
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Old 11-03-2018, 11:30 AM
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I don't know the answer but I think this is an interesting and reasonable question. I can think of a couple of legitimate reasons a person might want to do this. Maybe someone in your circle of friends has a psycho ex-boyfriend who makes a habit of showing up to parties uninvited. Maybe your friend is hosting a block party for the first time and no one knows who might show up. I suggest calling the local sheriff to see if you can get this question answered - and then doing additional research on the law just to be sure. It's best to really know the law on something like this.

You might also stash a gun somewhere in your friend's house where it can be quickly accessed to avoid the conceal carry issue - with your friend's permission and the gun safely out of reach of children, etc.

Last edited by Starslinger; 11-03-2018 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 11-03-2018, 12:08 PM
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If I was the friend and I regularly carried in my own house, and if you were to ask me me you can and did, I wouldn't care. Now if I didn't carry and you were to ask me if you can for the BBQ, I still wouldn't care, because we are friends, but I would laugh at you behind your back. Some friend I am...
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Old 11-03-2018, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Starslinger View Post
I don't know the answer but I think this is an interesting and reasonable question. I can think of a couple of legitimate reasons a person might want to do this. Maybe someone in your circle of friends has a psycho ex-boyfriend who makes a habit of showing up to parties uninvited. Maybe your friend is hosting a block party for the first time and no one knows who might show up. I suggest calling the local sheriff to see if you can get this question answered - and then doing additional research on the law just to be sure. It's best to really know the law on something like this.

You might also stash a gun somewhere in your friend's house where it can be quickly accessed to avoid the conceal carry issue - with your friend's permission and the gun safely out of reach of children, etc.


I think THAT’S even worse. You gotta keep control of that gun on your body....not some accessible “hideaway”. Kids and guests go snoopin’ and you’re facing jail.


IMO, if you don’t have a CCW license and can’t go to a BBQ....on an acre of land, so obviously not in the city.....without worrying about gunplay, I’d skip the BBQ.


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Old 11-03-2018, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
IMO, if you don’t have a CCW license and can’t go to a BBQ....on an acre of land, so obviously not in the city.....without worrying about gunplay, I’d skip the BBQ.
Kind of a variation on 'I carry only when I think I'll need it'; best plan is, as always, Don't Be There.

Of course, my crystal ball is in the shop, so I don't know ahead of time whether I should worry or no.
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Old 11-03-2018, 3:00 PM
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I appreciate all the input. It’s amazing how open to interpretation certain laws are. Nothing is cut and dry in this state currently run by liberals.
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Old 11-04-2018, 6:20 AM
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I appreciate all the input. It’s amazing how open to interpretation certain laws are. Nothing is cut and dry in this state currently run by liberals.
There cannot be a law for every situation. That's one reason we have judges. That is not the fault of the liberals, it's just a reality.
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Old 11-04-2018, 8:58 AM
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if there is a party where alcohol is served....the last thing I would want.....is you with a firearm.
suppose there is a disturbance and the police show up and they are patting people down......they ask you if you have any weapons on your person. what exactly are you going to tell the officer ?
(btw, a legal ccw holder is required to notify the officer on contact. what do you plan on doing ? )
as stated......if you think you need to carry a weapon to any type of function.....the smart move is to just not go.
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Old 11-04-2018, 9:05 AM
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There are different cultures about 'armed at a party'; see for example the Wilson Combat Texas BBQ gun - https://www.wilsoncombat.com/wilson-...s-bbq-special/

To restate what I posted above, I would not carry because I thought I'd need to use the gun; if I did think that, staying away is the preferred tactic. I'd carry because I'd always carry anyplace legal, which I would do because I can't know in advance whether Today Is The Day.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nine mil thrill View Post
...they ask you if you have any weapons on your person. what exactly are you going to tell the officer ?
(btw, a legal ccw holder is required to notify the officer on contact. what do you plan on doing ? ).
CCW holders are not universally or statutorily-required to notify the officer...that’s a local IA provision, and many IAs don’t have it.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I agree, that's the way to bet - but does anyone know for sure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agon3 View Post
I appreciate all the input. It’s amazing how open to interpretation certain laws are. Nothing is cut and dry in this state currently run by liberals.
If a guest were to be arrested for concealed carry on an individual’s property after the individual had specifically told the guest they could carry, upon what statute would the guest base their defense?

We consistently state that the statute tells you what you can’t do. Then the statute provides clarifying exceptions or exemptions.

PEN 25400 generally prohibits concealed carry.
Quote:
25400.
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when the person does any of the following:
(2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
PC 25605 (cited above) provides an exemption to 25400 for property owners when on their property.

No other statute extends that 25400 exemption to guests of the property owner, nor does any statute grant authority to the property owner to extend the exemption to guests.

Regardless of what your host says is ok, and what the local LEA may/may not enforce, the statute says you can’t carry concealed and provides no exemption for “house rules”.

That’s pretty cut and dried.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:38 AM
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"lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident."

lawful possession

(noun) allowable retention, authorized proprietorship, authorized retention, lawful retention, legal retention, legitimate control over, legitimate ownership, legitimate retention, permissible control, permitted control, possession in accordance with the law, possession in conformity to the law, possession prescribed by law, proper bailment, proper ownership, proper title, retention sanctioned by law, retention warranted by law, right of retention, rightful control, rightful retention, sanctioned retention, valid retention


When I read these definitions for lawful possession, Allowable retention and authorized retention and permissible control, are the items that made me wonder if it was permissible to conceal carry on private property when given permission by the owner of the property.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Agon3 View Post
"lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident."

lawful possession

(noun) allowable retention, authorized proprietorship, authorized retention, lawful retention, legal retention, legitimate control over, legitimate ownership, legitimate retention, permissible control, permitted control, possession in accordance with the law, possession in conformity to the law, possession prescribed by law, proper bailment, proper ownership, proper title, retention sanctioned by law, retention warranted by law, right of retention, rightful control, rightful retention, sanctioned retention, valid retention

When I read these definitions for lawful possession, Allowable retention and authorized retention and permissible control, are the items that made me wonder if it was permissible to conceal carry on private property when given permission by the owner of the property.
Before parsing the language or applying additional interpretations and definitions to the statute, simply read what the black letter law says in plain, common English.

To what are the words, “lawfully possessed by the citizen or resident” applied, and to whom is the exemption from 25400 granted?
Quote:
(a) Section 25400 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or the legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident, any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
If the citizen or legal resident owns or lawfully possesses a property, then the citizen or legal resident may carry while on it. No one else is mentioned in the statute, nor does the statute say anything about the owner being able to convey that exemption onto another person.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:44 PM
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After reading all this I'm going with the following: The private home owner does not have the right to extend the authority to "you" to legally carry in his home or on the premises. The provision of an owner's right to carry in his residence applies to the home owner only as the primary. Yes I would think that would extend to the family members as well. But not to YOU the non-resident. CCW permits are for just that reason.
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
This has “wannabe operator” written all over it.
You said in a few words what I was thinking.
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:34 PM
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Just a bad idea all around, OP. If you feel the need for a gun at a party, DON'T GO TO THAT PARTY. End of story. Make good decisions.
Unless you're a bunch of Mormons. there's going to be alcohol and ALCOHOL AND GUNS DON'T MIX. The End.
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Old 11-10-2018, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
There cannot be a law for every situation. That's one reason we have judges. That is not the fault of the liberals, it's just a reality.
So you're saying free states have these ambiguous laws concerning firearms?

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