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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 10-26-2018, 8:26 AM
AlexBL94 AlexBL94 is offline
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Default Hate Crimes=Good Cause?

Hey guys,

First of all, I just want to be clear that I'm not a fan of anyone playing the victim card, and I don't actually feel unsafe anywhere because of my religion.

Recently, LA County released a report on hate crimes from 2017, where they noted that hate crimes had increased, particularly against Jews. They found that over 70% of religiously motivated hate crimes in 2017 were directed at Jews.

Now it just so happens that I am an Orthodox Jew (and highly identifiable by my yarmulke) that lives in LA County, and it sort of got me thinking....

Assuming I had the time and money, if I were to apply for a CCW in the City of LA and cite the County's study as my good cause ("Well, I'm identifiably Jewish and I'm more likely to have a hate crime committed against me for that"), what are they chances that that would work? Or really, if any of the targeted groups mentioned in the study tried that?

Right now I don't have the time nor the money to do this, so this is more of a thought experiment than anything else.
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2018, 9:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBL94 View Post
Hey guys,

First of all, I just want to be clear that I'm not a fan of anyone playing the victim card, and I don't actually feel unsafe anywhere because of my religion.

Recently, LA County released a report on hate crimes from 2017, where they noted that hate crimes had increased, particularly against Jews. They found that over 70% of religiously motivated hate crimes in 2017 were directed at Jews.

Now it just so happens that I am an Orthodox Jew (and highly identifiable by my yarmulke) that lives in LA County, and it sort of got me thinking....

Assuming I had the time and money, if I were to apply for a CCW in the City of LA and cite the County's study as my good cause ("Well, I'm identifiably Jewish and I'm more likely to have a hate crime committed against me for that"), what are they chances that that would work? Or really, if any of the targeted groups mentioned in the study tried that?

Right now I don't have the time nor the money to do this, so this is more of a thought experiment than anything else.
If they ever found out you posted that first line in your post (not feeling unsafe because of your religion), there is likely zero chance they would accept it as good cause.

I will say that I personally believe it is highly unlikely this would fly as good cause in LA as they are unfortunately very restrictive with issuing. However, there is another thread about good cause for LA city that might be worth reading. It is currently 2 threads below this one.

If you do decide to try, I wish you all the luck in the world. Let me know how it goes! Hopefully, we can flip LA to a green color on the CCW spectrum!
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2018, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBL94 View Post
Hey guys,

First of all, I just want to be clear that I'm not a fan of anyone playing the victim card, and I don't actually feel unsafe anywhere because of my religion.

Recently, LA County released a report on hate crimes from 2017, where they noted that hate crimes had increased, particularly against Jews. They found that over 70% of religiously motivated hate crimes in 2017 were directed at Jews.

Now it just so happens that I am an Orthodox Jew (and highly identifiable by my yarmulke) that lives in LA County, and it sort of got me thinking....

Assuming I had the time and money, if I were to apply for a CCW in the City of LA and cite the County's study as my good cause ("Well, I'm identifiably Jewish and I'm more likely to have a hate crime committed against me for that"), what are they chances that that would work? Or really, if any of the targeted groups mentioned in the study tried that?

Right now I don't have the time nor the money to do this, so this is more of a thought experiment than anything else.
That's not gonna work under LASD and LAPD criteria. Both agencies require, among other things, that you be the target of a specific threat and that the threat cannot be alleviated by other means.

Your membership in an identifiable group that suffers increased exposure to hate crimes does not amount to a specific threat against you personally.

Even if it did, you would have the ability to alleviate it by hiring professional security services.
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2018, 9:27 AM
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Interesting and legit but not sure it would help. I believe Los Angeles is one of those counties that require a good cause such as proof of immediate threat? Active stalker, restraining order, police reports filed etc? Maybe the man or woman reviewing your application is not a fan of Jews and will hold that against you You never know.

But I would sure as heck try for your CCW anyway. Better to try an be denied than for sure not get it by not going for it.

Does L.A allow the sheriff to issue? I am not familiar with that counties Sheriff. But I am assuming not quite as 2A friendly as our sheriff's in the San Joaquin valley. I am fortunate enough to have a sheriff that makes a point that "self defense" is sufficient good cause.

I would mention how you stand out as a target. Have you been threatened or harassed recently or Jews in your neighborhood attacked? If so I would make mention of any of that also.

I'm no expert or even close, just stating some thoughts as someone not actually in your situation or county. But I do believe it is well worth it to try. I put off going for my CCW for years in fear that I did not have good cause enough, or not wanting to sit through an interview being drilled or coming into CCW training as a noob and dealing with seasoned snobby instructors etc.
It was none of that. Everyone I have dealt with through the entire process were very helpful and friendly. There was not even an actual interview. I guess the woman helping me fill out my paperwork at the CCW desk was my interview. I was very honest on the application. You do not want to get caught in a lie or you app goes in the garbage.

I hope you go for it, let us know how it goes.

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Last edited by CaliforniaCowboy; 10-27-2018 at 10:58 AM..
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2018, 9:35 AM
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If you live in the City of Los Angeles, read the linked thread, especially my posts.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1423638

Last edited by Paladin; 12-02-2018 at 12:39 PM.. Reason: corrected link
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Old 10-26-2018, 11:02 AM
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All good answer's above. I think you'd also have to take the study and determine how many of the "hate crimes" are crimes against a person as opposed to property crimes. If the study is just an overall ranking it will include property crimes. Vandalism at Synagogue's will be part of the ranking.
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Old 10-27-2018, 10:54 AM
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Today might be a good time to apply if you want to use that angle, with the active shooter in PA going on today, with the threat fresh in peoples minds.
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Old 10-28-2018, 8:09 AM
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Alex,

Are you a member of www.jpfo.org? If not, join. I'm Christian & a member. It's the most aggressive defender of our Second Amendment of any such entity of which I'm aware. Regardless, call JPFO for info about how you might be able to secure a CCW permit is LA County. The few times I've called JPFO, its staff was beyond professional, extremely polite, and very helpful.
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Old 10-29-2018, 1:12 PM
AlexBL94 AlexBL94 is offline
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I appreciate all of the replies, guys. At this point, just looking at the issuance data for the City and County of LA alone, I feel like I'm better off waiting until I'm in a position to move out of here to somewhere more CCW friendly. I'd hate to have a denied CCW on my record.
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Old 10-29-2018, 2:22 PM
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If being visibly Jewish would help you get approved for CCW, it should work for all religions because they've all been persecuted. I don't think it would help & I don't think it should be a factor.
I'm Jewish, BTW. Not religious.
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Old 10-29-2018, 6:15 PM
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First Alex, welcome to Calguns. Concerns for your safety as an observant Jew are reasonable and justified. Were I in a position to authorize the CCW, you would certainly be approved. However, as was well stated above, your religious beliefs alone are likely inadequate to meet minimum qualifying criteria. But I do wish you success. I am not Jewish, but were your life threatened in my presence, I would defend you.
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Old 10-29-2018, 7:09 PM
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The police will instruct you to change your religion - so there you go - threat can be alleviated by other means.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:12 AM
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I've asked to speak with the CCW unit at LAPD.

They said they don't have one.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
That's not gonna work under LASD and LAPD criteria. Both agencies require, among other things, that you be the target of a specific threat and that the threat cannot be alleviated by other means.

Your membership in an identifiable group that suffers increased exposure to hate crimes does not amount to a specific threat against you personally.

Even if it did, you would have the ability to alleviate it by hiring professional security services.

That seems awfully specific criteria. Given how many lawyers we have in California, it would seem so easy to sue LASD/LAPD once you become a criminal victim after LASD/LAPD summarily denied your right to defend yourself.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:04 PM
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That seems awfully specific criteria. Given how many lawyers we have in California, it would seem so easy to sue LASD/LAPD once you become a criminal victim after LASD/LAPD summarily denied your right to defend yourself.
It may be easy to file such a lawsuit. But it would be just about impossible to win. Please check out the immunity provisions afforded to the folks to who denied the permit as contained in Government Code section 821.2:

"A public employee is not liable for an injury caused by his issuance, denial, suspension or revocation of, or by his failure or refusal to issue, deny, suspend or revoke, any permit, license, certificate, approval, order, or similar authorization where he is authorized by enactment to determine whether or not such authorization should be issued, denied, suspended or revoked."
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:07 PM
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In California wearing a yarmulke might be considered a hate crime
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:40 PM
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See items a, c and most likely, e in the Good Cause section at:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1423638

I posted a link earlier which was incorrect. I just corrected that post.
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Old 12-03-2018, 2:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
It may be easy to file such a lawsuit. But it would be just about impossible to win. Please check out the immunity provisions afforded to the folks to who denied the permit as contained in Government Code section 821.2:

"A public employee is not liable for an injury caused by his issuance, denial, suspension or revocation of, or by his failure or refusal to issue, deny, suspend or revoke, any permit, license, certificate, approval, order, or similar authorization where he is authorized by enactment to determine whether or not such authorization should be issued, denied, suspended or revoked."
His? He?

So we just need to elect female Sheriffs then lol
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Old 12-03-2018, 7:56 AM
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His? He?

So we just need to elect female Sheriffs then lol
I know you're not being serious, but even if you were, they've already beaten you down. Please check out Government Code section 12:

"The masculine gender includes the feminine and neuter."
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Old 12-03-2018, 8:33 AM
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Never know till you try. I can't speak to specifics in LA County but here in Orange County you really don't spend any money until you have essentially been given the OK.

In other words, I didn't get the training done or the background check until the investigator told me to.
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Old 12-03-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
I know you're not being serious, but even if you were, they've already beaten you down. Please check out Government Code section 12:

"The masculine gender includes the feminine and neuter."
Well, I'm going to call my state senator and complain then.
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Old 12-06-2018, 8:55 AM
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Welcome Alex. If you live in the city of LA you actually meet their issuance requirements, although you will need to be persistent and determined to get it. LA city is under a court ruling that requires them to issue for certain categories and you're in one. That doesn't mean they will do it easily though.

See this thread.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:31 AM
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Sure.

After you got jumped by a bunch 'a Neo Nazis who cut off your penis and broke your jaw before threatening you to come back if you don't move to Israel, you certainly have a chance to a CCW.
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