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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 09-29-2018, 5:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave50 View Post
bingo...

it figures a cop would be the one saying 2a isn't a right, but rather the .gov allowing us subjects the option of self defense
When the time comes to confiscate firearms, and it seems it might be in our lifetimes here in CA, it won't be the Army, Navy, or Marines knocking at your door. It will be a much more local group, like LEA, all grinning and chanting "just following orders"...of course going home after to another one of their special people exemptions. This is why we need a National Policy.
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  #42  
Old 09-29-2018, 5:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
I have no problem with meaningful legislation. The Supreme Court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment doesn't extend to outside the home. Thus, carrying a gun concealed or open in public is a privilege. In that sense, a LTC is quite similar to a driver's license in many ways.

Here in Ventura County we have to do 16 hours of instruction, and we have to qualify, and re-qualify at renewal, with every gun we wish to have on our permit. It's rather easy to qualify with a G34, whereas it's rather difficult to do so with a dual-action-only snubby that has a 10-pound trigger. The latter is just not made for 27-feet precision shots under time constraint, but if you wish to carry one once in a while, you need to show that you are qualified to shoot it properly without gunning down a bunch 'o school kids that are standing 35 feet aside of the target.

Generally speaking, the more demanding the qualifications are, the more we can point out that not every pot-snorting homie can get a license, and that in turn may be beneficial when it comes to discussions about concealed carry with the antis.
Pot smoking homies just carry illegally.

The anti group will wake up when they must pull a permit to write a newspaper article.
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  #43  
Old 09-29-2018, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Assuming the target you are shooting at in a high stress scenario is not shooting back, stands perfectly shoulder width, is facing you and does not move.


Do you really think that is true? If Antis have their way...the minimum qualification will be "you need to be a LEO".
LEO does not equal firearm competency. Just Google it and you will learn of all sorts of keystone firearm blunders by LEO....certainly not all, but way too many to assume LEO status means much at all in terms of firearms competency.
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  #44  
Old 09-29-2018, 7:41 AM
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This is probably too early of a question to ask but I want to get it out here.
Wife and I our coming up for a two year renewal.
Safety certificate is good for six months.
We take the classroom portion together, my permit is up before the end of the year, hers is up in February, 2019.
Our county to date does not require and CCW range qualification.
Will she be "grandfathered in" (not having to take the extended four hour class time and range qualification) by the pre 2019 date on her certificate?

We belong to a law enforcement operated outdoor shooting facility that allows civilian memberships subject to a background check, train 3-4 times a month with our CCW EDCs so qualifying wouldn't be an issue.
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  #45  
Old 09-29-2018, 7:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeepergeo View Post
LEO does not equal firearm competency. Just Google it and you will learn of all sorts of keystone firearm blunders by LEO....certainly not all, but way too many to assume LEO status means much at all in terms of firearms competency.
I don't disagree. My point is that since the general public supports all LEO exemptions that would be their bare minimum standard. Which from a practical standpoint doesn't have to do with shooting, but passing police academy, POST, etc...
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  #46  
Old 09-29-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeepergeo View Post
Pot smoking homies just carry illegally.

The anti group will wake up when they must pull a permit to write a newspaper article.
No, they won't.
The 1A permit will be shall-issue unless you are conservative.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #47  
Old 09-29-2018, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nickel plate View Post
This is probably too early of a question to ask but I want to get it out here.
Yes, too early to tell yet. However, once this law takes affect, it has no provision for "grand-fathering". It will depend on how far your IA is willing to push this.

I suspect they will require her to follow the new rules.
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  #48  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:27 PM
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You guys that get to list more than a couple of guns on your permit are fortunate. Here in CoCo county we only get two, and have to qualify with each one.

I don't agree with the practice (or the new law), but practically speaking nothing has changed for me.

As an aside - qualification was not difficult, and I cannot imagine how one could fail at it. Even with my 2" snub nose, it just wasn't a big deal.
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  #49  
Old 10-01-2018, 6:33 AM
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I assume that in addition to the current charges that we already pay for renewals, there will now be the additional $100 (actually slightly more than that?) range fee every two years?? (san bernardino county)
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  #50  
Old 10-01-2018, 6:40 AM
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I just don't see the problem. With the sudden and massive rash of CCW involved shootings, posing exactly the kind of risk this law will mitigate- it only makes sense. Don't believe it? Well here's a list of the unlawful CCW shootings:




















Oh wait...
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  #51  
Old 10-01-2018, 7:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
You guys that get to list more than a couple of guns on your permit are fortunate. Here in CoCo county we only get two, and have to qualify with each one.

I don't agree with the practice (or the new law), but practically speaking nothing has changed for me.

As an aside - qualification was not difficult, and I cannot imagine how one could fail at it. Even with my 2" snub nose, it just wasn't a big deal.


Butte county, we get 4 guns, have to shoot all 4 to "qualify" with them(not many rounds though). I think renewal was a 4hr class. Don't remember if original class is 4 or 8hrs.
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  #52  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Norcalkid View Post
Butte county, we get 4 guns, have to shoot all 4 to "qualify" with them(not many rounds though). I think renewal was a 4hr class. Don't remember if original class is 4 or 8hrs.
We have a 4 hour class at the Sheriff facility, then straight out to the range for qualification. three 5 shot strings at 5, 7, and 15 yards. Passing score is low so, unless you fumble your draw and drop your gun, you really can't screw it up.
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  #53  
Old 10-01-2018, 1:18 PM
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Looks like I failed to make my point. So let me try again.

I personally have no problems with certain classroom and training requirements. The reason I have no problems with that "proper training" is a valuable argument against antis' statements that getting a LTC is way too easy. If we can point out that getting and maintaining a LTC is tied to background checks, interview, classroom training and range qualification, we have something of value to bring to the table.

I also have no problem with a nation-wide consensus on issuing CCWs.
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  #54  
Old 10-01-2018, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
We have a 4 hour class at the Sheriff facility, then straight out to the range for qualification. three 5 shot strings at 5, 7, and 15 yards. Passing score is low so, unless you fumble your draw and drop your gun, you really can't screw it up.
I saw the qualification for Alameda County:
2x5 shot strings at 25, 15, 7, 5, 2 yards.
70% is passing (250 possible points)
Each shot worth 5 points

If you are allowed to have more than 1 firearm (standard is 1) then you have to score I believe 90 or 95% for both.
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  #55  
Old 10-01-2018, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
Looks like I failed to make my point. So let me try again.

I personally have no problems with certain classroom and training requirements. The reason I have no problems with that "proper training" is a valuable argument against antis' statements that getting a LTC is way too easy. If we can point out that getting and maintaining a LTC is tied to background checks, interview, classroom training and range qualification, we have something of value to bring to the table.

I also have no problem with a nation-wide consensus on issuing CCWs.
Here's the issue I see with this though. Just like you have "proper training" in quotes... the antis will keep re-defining it. Just like they do AWs. They don't care about anything else you're saying, unfortunately and unreasonably. That's just how it is.

We already require an FSC test and safety handling demo for firearms, but they still raised the age limit to 21 with few exceptions. Doesn't matter if 18-20 are responsible, pass background checks, pass FSC test, complete safety demo. The antis will continue to add layer upon layer of restrictions.

As is repeated in these forums over and over again... give them an inch they'll take a mile each and every time. Historically speaking, from what I can gather there has not been a single time Pro2A have given an inch and the Anti2A folks acted reasonably and gave some rights back.

If you can name an instance of that working then please give me some hope.
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  #56  
Old 10-01-2018, 5:22 PM
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Is it the same mandated shooting test state wide? Otherwise what's to prevent an issuing agency from making it very difficult? Harder then their own department standard. One way or another you can bet that all department members will pass. The same effort going to be made for ccw applicants?
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  #57  
Old 10-01-2018, 5:29 PM
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I don't even want permits. Dont need one for any other God given rights.
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  #58  
Old 10-01-2018, 5:31 PM
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If they are going to keep upping the requirements then it absolutely should be shall issue. We of course should just be covered with constitutional carry anyway.
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  #59  
Old 10-01-2018, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Here's the issue I see with this though. Just like you have "proper training" in quotes... the antis will keep re-defining it. Just like they do AWs. They don't care about anything else you're saying, unfortunately and unreasonably. That's just how it is.

We already require an FSC test and safety handling demo for firearms, but they still raised the age limit to 21 with few exceptions. Doesn't matter if 18-20 are responsible, pass background checks, pass FSC test, complete safety demo. The antis will continue to add layer upon layer of restrictions.

As is repeated in these forums over and over again... give them an inch they'll take a mile each and every time. Historically speaking, from what I can gather there has not been a single time Pro2A have given an inch and the Anti2A folks acted reasonably and gave some rights back.

If you can name an instance of that working then please give me some hope.
And BINGO was his name-o!

This is what it's all about for the antis. This concept, fundamentally, is what all gun control is about. It's called incrementalism.

Look at what happened with the handgun roster in California.

First it was, "Oh, we're just going to make this little roster here and do some safety tests on all handguns for sale in California. But don't worry! You'll still be able to buy any handgun you want, as long as the manufacturer is willing to submit it for testing."

Then after a few years, it became "Okay, the safe handgun roster is definitely helping make us safer, but we're just going to add a couple of extra requirements to tighten up the safety a little bit. We're going to require every gun to have a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator in order to qualify for the roster."

And then after a few years, it was "Okay, we want to make you even safer. Now we will not accept any pistols for the roster unless they have microstamping." Which, as we all know, isn't even a technology that exists.

The end result was that over the span of about 15 years, the California safe handgun roster went from "this is inconvenient but it's not really a big deal" to "THIS IS A TOTAL AND COMPLETE BAN ON ALL NEW HANDGUNS DESIGNED AFTER 2010."

And the worst part? Half of the people on this forum don't even know why or how this all happened with the roster, because of the incrementalism approach! We STILL get posts in the Handgun forum asking, "So, when is Glock going to make the Gen 5 California-Compliant?" or "What do I have to do to import a Sig P320?"

Democrats are very, very good at playing the looooooooooooong game. They will use incrementalism over the course of a decade or more in order to reach their final goal.

Mark my words, this is where CCW in CA is headed. Signing this bill was the single worst thing that Jerry Brown could have done for CCW holders in CA. Now they have reversed the wording from a 16-hour maximum to an 8-hour minimum, they've established a foothold to start piling on more and more restrictions in the name of "training". Ten years from now, the minimum "training" to receive a CCW permit will be 240 hours of in-class training, three different letters of recommendation from three different law enforcement agencies, a five-page statement of good cause, and about $1500 in fees along the way.

And the worst part?

Ten years from now, there will be idiots on Calguns posting, "WELL, I PERSONALLY HAVE NO PROBLEM..."

Last edited by tuna quesadilla; 10-01-2018 at 7:55 PM..
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  #60  
Old 10-01-2018, 6:47 PM
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Not for nothing, but the approach Newsom is using is similar to the approach many states have used to make abortions so difficult to get nobody can get one. Back door regular sucks, no matter what the issue is.
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Old 10-01-2018, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Humboldt Leatherneck View Post
This is the type of target I was given 3 of at the indoor range.



Then I was informed that if all of the 25 rounds per weapon fired were within the green, that I would pass qualification.
Well, within the 7-ring. I shoot at Old West too, and that is the criteria they always tell people. Range depends on barrel length.
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Old 10-01-2018, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by General View Post
I don't even want permits. Dont need one for any other God given rights.
Just curious, where in the Bible is the RKBA or CCW covered? Like to cite that reference.

And FWIW, believe in Shall Issue or Constitutional carry. And I have zero issue with a person having to demonstrate some minimal ability with their chosen weapons. Based on what I see at ranges, I'm not sure I want some of them CCW around me
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Old 10-01-2018, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
Just curious, where in the Bible is the RKBA or CCW covered? Like to cite that reference.

And FWIW, believe in Shall Issue or Constitutional carry. And I have zero issue with a person having to demonstrate some minimal ability with their chosen weapons. Based on what I see at ranges, I'm not sure I want some of them CCW around me
I wouldn't go down that road if I were you
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Old 10-01-2018, 7:40 PM
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Just having a little fun. I fully support the 2A, but I also am not a fan of this "God Given Right" line. I will accept that the ability to defend myself and my family is a natural right, maybe that is close enough. Which, by the way, was the founding thought for Jefferson expressing our right to separate from England.

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Old 10-01-2018, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
Just having a little fun. I fully support the 2A, but I also am not a fan of this "God Given Right" line. I will accept that the ability to defend myself and my family is a natural right, maybe that is close enough. Which, by the way, was the founding thought for Jefferson expressing our right to separate from England.
I'm an atheist, history major/poli-sci minor.

For all intents and purposes, throughout all of Western history --

Natural Right == God-Given Right

God-Given Right == Natural Right

It's two ways of saying the same thing. So when people talk about their God-given right to carry a gun, and when you talk about your natural right to self-defense, you're all talking about exactly the same idea.

Just clarifying from an academic standpoint.
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Old 10-01-2018, 8:36 PM
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Back on topic, the live fire requirements are up to the IA, so if they are smart they have some basic live fire training for the one of the firearms on the list (like most require now) and the additional firearms just have to show basic proficiency only (safe operation, etc)

I think that San Joaquin county is like that. I know they already need to live fire all the guns on their permit

For another point of reference, I just completed the Idaho Enhanced CCW training and the state requirement is to fire 98 rounds at 7 yard silhouette . No accuracy or efficiency requirements. Just be safe about it. Does not matter what gun you use, its more about you being able to safely operate your firearm.
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Old 10-01-2018, 9:08 PM
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The major element added by AB 2103 is this:
Quote:
(3) The course shall include live-fire shooting exercises on a firing range and shall include a demonstration by the applicant of safe handling of, and shooting proficiency with, each firearm that the applicant is applying to be licensed to carry

(b) A licensing authority shall establish, and make available to the public, the standards it uses when issuing licenses with regards to the required live-fire shooting exercises, including, but not limited to, a minimum number of rounds to be fired and minimum passing scores from specified firing distances.
So, no longer will independent contractors be able to set the standards. The IA will have to publish specific training standards and firing requirements. That will allow “interested parties” to compare and critique the “adequacy” of individual IA standards. At that point, the legislature will devise a state standard, or, mandate an existing state standard for qualification. Some training organizations use the Bureau of Investigative and Security Services (BSIS) standards for armed security. These are found on page 44, and again on page 88, of the BSIS Fireams Manual.

(Targets are standard B57 silhouettes, and any round inside the 7 ring counts as 5 points. 50 rounds can provide a max score of 250; 200 points (80%) are needed to qualify.)

Quote:
Course of Fire:

A. 3 Yds: 6 rounds; 3 stages: 2 rounds in 3 seconds; standing, strong hand, unsupported, point shooting

B. 5 Yds: 6 rounds; 2 stages: 3 rounds in 4 seconds; standing, strong hand, supported,

C. 7 yds: 6 rounds; 1 stage: 6 rounds in 10 seconds; standing, strong hand supported

D. 7 yds; 12 rounds; 1 stage: 25 seconds (includes reloads; load 6 and 6)
-6 rounds standing, strong hand unsupported
-Reload.
-6 rounds standing, weak hand unsupported

E. 7 yds: 14 rounds; 1stage: 45 seconds (includes two reloads; load 6, 6 and 2) (semi-autos load 6 and 8)
-6 rounds standing strong hand supported
-Kneel then Reload
-8 rounds kneeling, strong hand supported

F. 15 yds: 6 rounds; 1 stage: 30 seconds; standing strong hand supported
50 rounds for each gun.

The next step will be to legislate “good cause”. At that point, the state will be shall issue, but few will clear the hurdle.
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Old 10-01-2018, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Back on topic, the live fire requirements are up to the IA, so if they are smart they have some basic live fire training for the one of the firearms on the list (like most require now) and the additional firearms just have to show basic proficiency only (safe operation, etc)

I think that San Joaquin county is like that. I know they already need to live fire all the guns on their permit

For another point of reference, I just completed the Idaho Enhanced CCW training and the state requirement is to fire 98 rounds at 7 yard silhouette . No accuracy or efficiency requirements. Just be safe about it. Does not matter what gun you use, its more about you being able to safely operate your firearm.
ummm.....
Quote:
(3) The course shall include live-fire shooting exercises on a firing range and shall include a demonstration by the applicant of safe handling of, and shooting proficiency with, each firearm that the applicant is applying to be licensed to carry.
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  #69  
Old 10-01-2018, 9:29 PM
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Humboldt already requires demonstrated proficiency with any firearm listed on your permit. I just do not see the big deal about this. I know we are all dead eye shots with everything we ever shot, but I take comfort in having to prove it. If the cost is prohibitive then I submit you will also not be able to stay proficient over time.


Let's just be happy that strong hand only/weak hand only are not required.
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Old 10-01-2018, 9:35 PM
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Humboldt already requires demonstrated proficiency with any firearm listed on your permit. I just do not see the big deal about this. I know we are all dead eye shots with everything we ever shot, but I take comfort in having to prove it. If the cost is prohibitive then I submit you will also not be able to stay proficient over time.


Let's just be happy that strong hand only/weak hand only are not required.
Yet... I happen to practice doing that so that wouldn't bother me much should I be given the opportunity. I know plenty people do not. You may find that you actually shoot a little better weak hand only since you focus much more on the fundamentals. I generally shoot better weak hand only vs strong hand only when not having to shoot quickly.
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Old 10-01-2018, 9:44 PM
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You Sir are the work of Satan then!! I find that left to weak hand only I would be better off throwing rocks!!!

But I am working on it. I'm fine single hand strong side.
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Old 10-02-2018, 6:35 AM
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My guess is this will force all counties to have a limit on max number of firearms on the permit, my guess is 3 max. Just further restricting law abiding gun owners, thanks Moonbeam...
The qualifying per firearms is no extra burden on the counties, but one on the person getting the CCW. So, I don't expect the counties to change policy.

At OC we have "to qualify" with each firearm anyway so not a big deal.
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Old 10-02-2018, 6:22 PM
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The qualifying per firearms is no extra burden on the counties, but one on the person getting the CCW. So, I don't expect the counties to change policy.

At OC we have "to qualify" with each firearm anyway so not a big deal.
but do you currently have to requalify every 2 years at renewal time? THAT's where the extra burden comes.....
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Old 10-02-2018, 6:54 PM
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but do you currently have to requalify every 2 years at renewal time? THAT's where the extra burden comes.....
In Sacramento County, yes.
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Old 10-02-2018, 7:23 PM
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but do you currently have to requalify every 2 years at renewal time? THAT's where the extra burden comes.....
Yes, in Contra Costa. We have to sit through the class, take the written test, and re-qualify.
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Old 10-02-2018, 8:54 PM
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ummm.....
Isn't that what I said? Proficiency with each additional firearm...

What does proficiency mean in the new law anyway? If its to safely load and operate the firearm then you could be deemed proficient. If it means specific shooting tasks be completed in a satisfactory manner then that is different. But does that mean some minimum round count and shooting tasks for each firearm (3yd, 7yd, 2 body/1 head, rapid fire, slow fire, movement, etc) or just for one firearm and then basic safe operation of additional firearms?
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Old 10-03-2018, 1:30 AM
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...You may find that you actually shoot a little better weak hand only since you focus much more on the fundamentals. I generally shoot better weak hand only vs strong hand only when not having to shoot quickly.
If you are having to slow down in order to shoot weak hand accurately then you are NOT shooting weak hand better.
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Old 10-03-2018, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Isn't that what I said? Proficiency with each additional firearm...

What does proficiency mean in the new law anyway? If its to safely load and operate the firearm then you could be deemed proficient. If it means specific shooting tasks be completed in a satisfactory manner then that is different. But does that mean some minimum round count and shooting tasks for each firearm (3yd, 7yd, 2 body/1 head, rapid fire, slow fire, movement, etc) or just for one firearm and then basic safe operation of additional firearms?
What you said was,
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
"...basic live fire training for the one of the firearms on the list (like most require now) and the additional firearms just have to show basic proficiency only (safe operation, etc)
The statute says: "...safe handling of, and shooting proficiency with, each...."

"Safe handling" of each, and
"Shooting proficiency" with each.

How this gets applied consistently throughout the state, and what defines "shooting proficiency" will be next year's legislation/regulation.
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Old 10-03-2018, 6:25 AM
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If you are having to slow down in order to shoot weak hand accurately then you are NOT shooting weak hand better.
So if I shoot smaller groups weak handed when shooting 1 round per second at 15 yards that isn't better than strong hand only doing the same thing? I must be confused then what slightly better means.

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Old 10-03-2018, 11:03 AM
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So if I shoot smaller groups weak handed when shooting 1 round per second at 15 yards that isn't better than strong hand only doing the same thing? I must be confused then what slightly better means.

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You also said you slowed down more than when you were shooting strong hand. Changing the parameters of your previous comment?
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