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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 09-13-2017, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
If you're making reference to my post, you'll notice the past tense re: armorer's inspection.

Nah, you're correct and good by me.

I was just relating MY recent experience 2-3 weeks ago, to corroborate your notes
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2017, 4:47 PM
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The level of scrutiny depends on the person/trainers signing off on the certificate.

Each trainer isn't exactly the same as the other. I've had a one inspect every inch of the pistol, including numerous trigger pulls feeling for a connector on a Glock or some trigger pull weight reduction on a 1911. And yet to another who couldn't care less about it, as long as it "looked" stock to him, the gun fired safely and he is convinced I could safely handle the pistol.

Last edited by caliberetta; 09-14-2017 at 10:12 PM..
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2017, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
What trigger pull test? None of the firearms I had gotten a permit for in the last few years ever had their trigger pull tested. How would one even know what is set at the factory?
Those of us who originally got their permits prior to Hutchens had to undergo a weapons inspection by the OCSD armorer. The inspection was eliminated to speed up the issuance process. As mentioned in my other post, you took the your guns to the department armorer and he gave them a once over and tested the trigger pull. The standard was five pounds. If you had a 1911 (or whatever) that came from the factor at 3.5 or 4 pounds it wouldn't fly and you couldn't put it on your permit.
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2017, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
...The standard was five pounds. If you had a 1911 (or whatever) that came from the factor at 3.5 or 4 pounds it wouldn't fly and you couldn't put it on your permit.
Good thing the "standard" is no longer applicable. I am planning on putting my competition guns on my permit as I don't want to worry about locking my range bag every time I drive. The trigger pulls from the factory are 1.75 lbs for both. Obviously, I'd never carry them as CCW, don't even have a regular holster for them.
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2017, 6:29 PM
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Seriously this thread is going to get the attention of OCSD. I already heard all training providers have been put on notice and the standard is being tightened up considerably. To hear a training provider is not inspecting weapons would be a reason for him to be removed from the approved list. We have a great thing in OC and all it's going to take is for a couple of clowns to ruin it for everyone. Our Sheriff has been very helpful in improving the process and by what I'm reading, she's got them operating very effectively in the CCW office. Kudos to them.

Just my 2cents. If anyone feels I'm wrong, I get it and it's the chance they take. Training providers are not the same and everyone here knows that. Some of us believe we know it all, and don't need the training. This is my first issued license so we'll see how much I'll forget. My LE friend told me my CCW is the last resort, not the resource that makes me a billy bad butt and can take on the world with my modified trigger (my guns are 100% stock). Again, let's not screw this up for us getting issued to and the training providers that should be conducting business professionally to the standard.

Hope that makes sense.

Last edited by Mibairho; 09-15-2017 at 6:32 PM..
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  #46  
Old 09-16-2017, 6:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mibairho View Post
... My LE friend told me my CCW is the last resort, not the resource that makes me a billy bad butt and can take on the world with my modified trigger (my guns are 100% stock)...
I fail to see how having a modified trigger that makes the firearm more usable be equated to an attitude that means one "can take on the world".
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  #47  
Old 10-27-2017, 8:50 PM
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Can or Should modify? Lets see Prosecutor - "You modifed your weapon to make it easier to rapidly change magazines. Sir do you often feel the need to shoot you victim more than 10 times? "


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  #48  
Old 10-27-2017, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
I fail to see how having a modified trigger that makes the firearm more usable be equated to an attitude that means one "can take on the world".
Prosecutor - "So you wanted a hair trigger like Wyatt Earp? Does a light trigger make it easier or more difficult to accidently discharge your weapon? Did reducing the trigger pull make it easier to rapidly fire your weapon? Do you have more or less control when rapid fireing? " .... Jail time.

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  #49  
Old 10-27-2017, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Can or Should modify? Lets see Prosecutor - "You modifed your weapon to make it easier to rapidly change magazines. Sir do you often feel the need to shoot you victim more than 10 times? "


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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Prosecutor - "So you wanted a hair trigger like Wyatt Earp? Does a light trigger make it easier or more difficult to accidently discharge your weapon? Did reducing the trigger pull make it easier to rapidly fire your weapon? Do you have more or less control when rapid fireing? " .... Jail time.

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Spoken like a true OSHA man

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  #50  
Old 10-28-2017, 6:38 AM
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Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Can or Should modify? Lets see...
I'll play...

First, if a "Prosecutor" is involved, the State is trying the case as a criminal act after finding the shooting was not justified. The Prosecutor will be relying on substantiated facts to make the case. The types of questions posed below might come from a tort attorney in a civil case simply because this is California and the facts have already been reviewed by the State and not pursued, or the shooter was successfully defended against the criminal charges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post

-Prosecutor Plaintiff Counsel - "You modifed your weapon to make it easier to rapidly change magazines. Sir do you often feel the need to shoot you (sic) victim more than 10 times?"
Defendant: "The assailant was not shot more than 10 times.

Expert witness: If a magazine fails during an encounter, the firearm is useless, and the defender is left to the evil intent of the assailant. Because of this, it's essential to change the mag quickly to maintain a successful defensive posture. A half second can mean your life. The FBI found this out in Miami in 1986 and the CHP learned it in Newhall in 1970. California implemented magazine disconnects as a child safety device, but they constitute a hazard to self defense. That's why the State of California doesn't require magazine disconnects on law enforcement firearms."


-Prosecutor Plaintiff Counsel - "So you wanted a hair trigger like Wyatt Earp?"
"Objection, there is no evidence presented that Wyatt Earp had a hair trigger on his firearms." "Sustained."

-Prosecutor Plaintiff Counsel - "Does a light trigger make it easier or more difficult to accidently discharge your weapon?
"Objection. This is a self-defense shooting, the defendant has already stated the shooting was not accidental." "Sustained"

-Prosecutor Plaintiff Counsel - "Did reducing the trigger pull make it easier to rapidly fire your weapon?"
Expert Witness: "Decreasing trigger pull does not increase the rate of fire of the weapon."

-Prosecutor Plaintiff Counsel - "Do you have more or less control when rapid firing?"
"Objection. Again, the shooting was in self defense. The defendant was successful in exercising that Right, proving his control of the weapon was sufficient. The question is irrelevant." "Sustained".

.... Jail time. Miller Time.
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  #51  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Can or Should modify? Lets see Prosecutor - "You modifed your weapon to make it easier to rapidly change magazines. Sir do you often feel the need to shoot you victim more than 10 times? "
Can or Should I invent my own little scenario? Lessee...Why don't you cite a criminal case where that has occurred.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Prosecutor - "So you wanted a hair trigger like Wyatt Earp? Does a light trigger make it easier or more difficult to accidently discharge your weapon? Did reducing the trigger pull make it easier to rapidly fire your weapon? Do you have more or less control when rapid fireing? " .... Jail time.
See above. As was posted, if you're in court with a prosecutor, there's more than a bit of doubt that the shoot was valid. If you do end up with jail time, it's for more than hair triggers or other gun modifications.

The scenarios might be entertaining, but more than improbable in the real world.

Thanks for playing
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  #52  
Old 11-04-2017, 7:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
.... Jail time. Miller Time.
That expert witness and the defense attorney who's on the ball with the objections don't come cheap. By the time they're through with you, you'll be lucky if you can afford Schlitz.
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  #53  
Old 11-04-2017, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SamsDX View Post
That expert witness and the defense attorney who's on the ball with the objections don't come cheap. By the time they're through with you, you'll be lucky if you can afford Schlitz.
Again, whether you modified the firearm is irrelevant... you will likely end up in civil court anyway.
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  #54  
Old 11-04-2017, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SamsDX View Post
That expert witness and the defense attorney who's on the ball with the objections don't come cheap. By the time they're through with you, you'll be lucky if you can afford Schlitz.
You're right. No need for a lawyer, represent yourself and take the loss. What will that cost?

If it's criminal prosecution, I'm sure a few years in prison will go quickly. CA pens now have "beer nights", right?

If it's civil, just pull your checkbook and ask, "How much?"

Jeez.
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  #55  
Old 11-04-2017, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You're right. No need for a lawyer, represent yourself and take the loss. What will that cost?



If it's criminal prosecution, I'm sure a few years in prison will go quickly. CA pens now have "beer nights", right?



If it's civil, just pull your checkbook and ask, "How much?"



Jeez.

The point I was making here is that competent legal representation and expert witnesses are expensive, nothing more. I should know - I see my bills before they go out.

Rather than suggesting that proceeding in pro per is a viable option, I was pointing out that even if everything goes as well as it could, a wrongful death suit will put the defendant in a world of financial hurt.

Every issue that you have to litigate, such as the motion in limine that will need to be filed to exclude that irrelevant evidence, just keeps increasing the bill. For better or for worse, it costs money to prove that you’re right.

Personally, I would want to take steps to minimize the possibility of distracting issues, but the specific calculus of what modifications will improve my chances in a self defense scenario are worth the added down line risk is for me alone to make - obviously I can’t (and won’t) tell anyone where to draw the line, but I think we can all recognize there is a line.




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  #56  
Old 11-04-2017, 8:45 PM
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My firearm was approved as is by my CCW instructor. Nothing has changed since that approval, nor will it.
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  #57  
Old 11-05-2017, 1:09 AM
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Reading SamsDX it looks like someone knows how the real world works. Those motions in limine to exclude are all important and the judge has a good deal of discretion as to what will be excluded. Even then, the pretrial ruling educates a smart prosecutor as to how they can lay a foundation to get their evidence admitted.

Also, objections don't always do much even when sustained. You can't unring the bell. Sure a conviction can be reversed on appeal, if critical evidence is excluded and the jury instructed to disregard, for what good it will do if there is sufficient evidence to sustain the conviction in absence of the inadmissable.
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  #58  
Old 11-05-2017, 1:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnysupersonic View Post
Specifically I refer to this clause on the OC Sheriff Dept website.

The alteration of any previously approved firearm including, but not limited to, adjusting the trigger pull or making other modifications that create an unsafe weapon (Penal Code § 31910) shall void any license and serve as grounds for revocation.
Yep. Think about what it says. An alteration shall void any license. Does that mean aby alteration just voided your license. Have someone explain the difference between being "void", as in "void ab initio", and "voidable". I wonder if whoever drafted this knew what they were writing. It would make sense had the written that the license shall be void when carrying the modified firearm and shall be grounds for revocation of the license.

Np\ow what happens if you shoot someone with an altered previously approved firearm. Is the prosecutor and/or the plaintiff's attorney going to claim that you were carrying without a license?

Last edited by Chewy65; 11-05-2017 at 1:21 AM..
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  #59  
Old 11-05-2017, 4:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Yep. Think about what it says. An alteration shall void any license. Does that mean aby alteration just voided your license. Have someone explain the difference between being "void", as in "void ab initio", and "voidable". I wonder if whoever drafted this knew what they were writing. It would make sense had the written that the license shall be void when carrying the modified firearm and shall be grounds for revocation of the license.

Np\ow what happens if you shoot someone with an altered previously approved firearm. Is the prosecutor and/or the plaintiff's attorney going to claim that you were carrying without a license?
I've often wondered who wrote the nonsense in the OCSD Terms of License (http://www.ocsd.org/civicax/filebank...BlobID=31605):
Quote:
2. If contacted by a law enforcement officer for any reason, license holder shall immediately inform the officer that they are a CCW licensee and provide their CCW license as proof that they are carrying a concealed weapon.
So, if you leave the gun at home, the mere presence of the OCSD license ID card (they don't issue the actual license - that's another story) makes you armed even if you don't have a gun?
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  #60  
Old 11-05-2017, 8:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by downdiver2 View Post
You CAN modify a weapon beyond original specs. There are way more details to get involved in, but basically they dont want unsafe weapons in the publics hands (Trigger #'s, modified barrels, conversion barrels, etc).

I have the following and I passed inspection and I had them reviewed by the OCSD as well.

1911 mods I made: Bobtail, beavertail, trigger, hammer, sights, de-horned.

Shield: CA version mods I made - I took off all CA crap = Magazine release, loaded chamber indicator, added sights and an apex trigger. Also, stippled.

Glock 23: Stock minus some stippling.
Some people should not be allow to own a CCW ^^^

Last edited by redteam22003; 11-05-2017 at 8:53 AM..
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  #61  
Old 11-07-2017, 2:24 PM
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This was not related to CCW licensing, but when I first visited the OCSD range my P229 to shoot as a civilian. The Sig was inspected by a range officer wh checked that it had a magazine disconnect. I believe he may have checked the trigger pull by simply dry firing it. Had it seemed light, I don't think he would have had any trouble producing a trigger pull gauge. Your CCW trainer/qualifier may be checking your guns without you realizing it.

Last edited by Chewy65; 11-07-2017 at 2:29 PM..
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  #62  
Old 11-07-2017, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Pupulepeter View Post
My firearm was approved as is by my CCW instructor. Nothing has changed since that approval, nor will it.
Yup, that's what a lot of people don't seem to get.

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  #63  
Old 11-20-2017, 11:37 PM
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I've read every post made here. I'm still at zero. Every point made has a counter point. So I'll just present my case and let those interested share their word.

I purchased Cajun Gunworks "Old Style" trigger for my CZ PCR (link: https://cajungunworks.com/product/75...style-trigger/). It does not change, at all, the trigger pull. Aside from the sights and grips, that is the only modification I want to make; the new recurve triggers on most new factory CZ handguns have a tendency to cause trigger bite. I have not called the OCSD office.... but reading this thread, I'm nervous to call anyone! Seems if I get the 'wrong' person, they'll say, no mods you moron. And if I get the 'right' person, they'll say, you're fine, don't worry about it. I'd like not to return this trigger... what say you? There was a great mix of opinions here and no real consensus reached.
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  #64  
Old 11-27-2017, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khiemp View Post
I decided to email OCSD because I was interested in putting in an aftermarket trigger in my CCW weapon. This is their response...

CCW Permits <CCWPermits@ocsd.org>
Today, 8:11 AM
Good morning,
In regards to your question about modifying the trigger pull. Any firearm
placed on the license must be in its original manufacturers condition. No
alterations may be made to the firearm.
Thank you

From: khiemp
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 5:14 PM
To: CCW Permits <CCWPermits@ocsd.org>
Subject: Aftermarket Parts on CCW
Hi,
Is it ok to install an aftermarket trigger to a CCW handgun? Is there a
minimum # trigger pull? Can the internals be polished?
Thanks!
Thank you khiemp for obtaining and posting the definitive answer from the OCSD.
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  #65  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnysupersonic View Post
Hi Calguns

I have a new Glock 19 Gen 3 bought in Orange County. I made 2 changes to it by installing a Glock Factory Extended Slide Stop Lever and Glock Factory Extended Magazine Catch.

Do these changes come into play and affect the requirements of CCW that no internal changes have been made?
Just a quick not, off topic to your question. If you plan to carry this gun, and I have seen modified guns approved, be very careful in selecting a holster. Most holsters unless custom made A) may either release the mag on holstering, or release the mag during a fight if the subject is gripped or put up against something or on the ground. B) holsters that don't cover the mag release button increase the risk.

Choose your holster carefully and get a lot of practice in.
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  #66  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mike415stone View Post
Just keep this thought in mind. If you have to shoot somebody with your CCW weapon somebody will sue you, either the suspect or one of their many family members. No matter what the modification was, some *** hat attorney will crucify you for shooting his client with a modified weapon.
Wont YOUR attorney establish on redirect the purpose of the modifications? Its not a one sided deal, trials are a tennis match, and your side gets a chance.

My attorney will certainly be on my side.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHAman View Post
Prosecutor - "So you wanted a hair trigger like Wyatt Earp? Does a light trigger make it easier or more difficult to accidently discharge your weapon? Did reducing the trigger pull make it easier to rapidly fire your weapon? Do you have more or less control when rapid fireing? " .... Jail time.

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Is your attorney asleep? Those are objectionable questions. If it was an intentional shoot, questions about accidental discharge are meant to confuse the jury.

A lot of people seem to think there is only one attorney at a trial. You get an attorney, and he should be earning his pay.
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  #68  
Old 12-06-2017, 4:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Specializedjon View Post
I can't resist jumping in and doing the "River Dance" on a DEAD HORSE....holly crap....

MHO...for what it's worth, why the hell would you modify your CCW? We're talking about a 3 - 5 yard defensive shot AT BEST. Anything more than that you shouldn't be in the fight. You're now officially in a IDPA match and heading to jail afterwards. I know, I know....there are exceptions but come on guys.....why test the system. Modify the crap out of your OTHER guns.

Ok, I'm done.....
You have no idea what you are talking about regarding modifications, tactics, and gunfights. Go get some training from someone like Craig Douglas, Tom Givens, etc. Mas Ayoob’s MAG-20 Classroom is a great place to start. Please refrain from giving gun and tactics advice to anyone until you develop some proficiency.


Did you even read the first part of the thread where permitted mods were listed?

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Old 10-28-2018, 12:12 PM
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Does anyone here have a 1911 approved that has work done? I haven't read anything here without conflicting arguments.
I just dropped off my Colt Wiley Clapp to get a thumb saftey installed and ended up going big since I was there. Reliability job (polished and throated), and a harrison trigger and ignition kit done. There will be a 3.5-4 lb trigger pull which isn't much different than it was before. Will this fq the gun from being a future ccw permit?
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:19 PM
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Does anyone here have a 1911 approved that has work done? I haven't read anything here without conflicting arguments.
I just dropped off my Colt Wiley Clapp to get a thumb saftey installed and ended up going big since I was there. Reliability job (polished and throated), and a harrison trigger and ignition kit done. There will be a 3.5-4 lb trigger pull which isn't much different than it was before. Will this fq the gun from being a future ccw permit?

I would contact the OCSD CCW unit to be sure,

but my conversations with them would seem to indicate that they have become quite restrictive regarding modifications from stock, beyond sights and grips...
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:28 PM
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I would contact the OCSD CCW unit to be sure,

but my conversations with them would seem to indicate that they have become quite restrictive regarding modifications from stock, beyond sights and grips...
Thanks, I'll give them a call tomorrow. I'd be willing to dail back my modifications to keep it eligible...maybe. it wouldn't be a primary carry option anyway, but the option to have it qualified would be nice.
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by toopercentmlk View Post
Does anyone here have a 1911 approved that has work done? I haven't read anything here without conflicting arguments.
I just dropped off my Colt Wiley Clapp to get a thumb saftey installed and ended up going big since I was there. Reliability job (polished and throated), and a harrison trigger and ignition kit done. There will be a 3.5-4 lb trigger pull which isn't much different than it was before. Will this fq the gun from being a future ccw permit?

See #n, (link) second from the bottom. The way you describe the work I would say it’s a no-go just based on the terms of license. Sure no one may check, but if you ever need to use the gun they will check it and will say you’re in violation of the terms of your permit. Then they (or the DA) could say you’re essentially carrying without a permit.

Back in the day you had to go to the armory to get your trigger pull checked. It definitely wouldn’t have passed back then.

If you call and ask they’ll more than likely tell you no. YMMV.

https://www.ocsd.org/gov/sheriff/abo.../ccw/terms.asp


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Last edited by Doheny; 10-28-2018 at 4:27 PM.. Reason: syntax
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:32 PM
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See #n, (link) second from the bottom. The way you describe the work I would say it’s a no-go just based on the terms of license. Sure no one may check, but if you ever need to use the gun they will check it and will say you’re in violation of the terms of your permit at which time they (or the DA) could say you’re essentially carrying without a permit.

Back in the day you had to go to the armory to get your trigger pull checked. It definitely wouldn’t have passed back then.

If you call and ask they’ll more than likely tell you no. YMMV.

https://www.ocsd.org/gov/sheriff/abo.../ccw/terms.asp


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Makes sense, worst case I'll just use it for a range and house gun. I'll check and chime back in soon.
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Old 10-28-2018, 2:35 PM
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Try again....it's, "...originally approved design." You are not the original designer.

If the changes you made were specifically approved by OCSD, you would have a document confirming that. If you had such a document, you would have said so, but you didn't, so you don't.

But, enjoy your specially-designed reality.

(And the term is, "reiterates".)

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What?

No, he woudnt have a document. My firearms were inspected and approved by an approved CCW insructor. They are listed on my license by serial number.

There is no other document, and they ARE approved.
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Old 10-28-2018, 6:48 PM
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Makes sense, worst case I'll just use it for a range and house gun. I'll check and chime back in soon.


Keep us posted


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Old 10-28-2018, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by toopercentmlk View Post
Does anyone here have a 1911 approved that has work done? I haven't read anything here without conflicting arguments.
I just dropped off my Colt Wiley Clapp to get a thumb saftey installed and ended up going big since I was there. Reliability job (polished and throated), and a harrison trigger and ignition kit done. There will be a 3.5-4 lb trigger pull which isn't much different than it was before. Will this fq the gun from being a future ccw permit?
I would say that OCSD CCW policy is quite clear about modifications:>

https://www.ocsd.org/civicax/fileban...x?BlobID=73535

Edited for brevity:>
9) Restrictions by Act: Any of the following or similar acts while in possession of a firearm shall be considered a violation of the licensee’s general responsibilities as specified below:

m. possessing a weapon altered from its originally approved design, or weapon not listed on the license, ...

I read this that being in possession of a weapon that has been modified from the original design is a violation of the permit.
Of course some may argue differently, but my position is we are lucky to have a Sheriff that is issuing, and I am not going to push the envelope in any way whatsoever.
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Old 10-28-2018, 8:35 PM
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What?

No, he woudnt have a document. My firearms were inspected and approved by an approved CCW insructor. They are listed on my license by serial number.

There is no other document, and they ARE approved.
Well, it’s been a year........but the point was that the “document” which indicates the IA has approved the design of the weapon is the license. If it wasn’t approved, you wouldn’t have the license.

Thanks for the necro tour, Now, back to current day....Yay, Red Sox!

Best.
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Old 10-28-2018, 8:47 PM
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Btw....just cause an instructor approved a firearm, doesn’t mean it’s falls witting the guidelines of OCSD and is valid on a permit

An instructor can miss the updated trigger, internals, etc...and still “approve” it. That does not mean OCSD has approved as well.

Instructors should be looking at the guns throughly to makes sure they meet the standards.

If an instructor approved a firearm outside of the guidelines it does not mean OCSD will honor that.

It means the instructor failed to do their job.

OCSD is the final word. Instructors should be doing their jobs so CCWs aren’t blown for everyone cause of slackness on their end.


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Old 10-29-2018, 7:48 PM
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Btw....just cause an instructor approved a firearm, doesn’t mean it’s falls witting the guidelines of OCSD and is valid on a permit

An instructor can miss the updated trigger, internals, etc...and still “approve” it. That does not mean OCSD has approved as well.

Instructors should be looking at the guns throughly to makes sure they meet the standards.

If an instructor approved a firearm outside of the guidelines it does not mean OCSD will honor that.

It means the instructor failed to do their job.

OCSD is the final word. Instructors should be doing their jobs so CCWs aren’t blown for everyone cause of slackness on their end.

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Old 10-29-2018, 9:21 PM
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Here a question for everyone... Say you have an aftermarket trigger and you go to your ccw inspection/qualification they do the trigger pull weight test ...
I doubt OC CCW instructors do a trigger pull test. With many guns out there I don't think anyone knows or has documented trigger pulls that come from the factory.

Also, some guns do come with light triggers. Two of my guns came from the factory at 1.25 lbs trigger pull. Albeit I don't carry them, but they are on the license as a convenience.
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