Vague question about CCW across state lines

[Citadelgrad87]

This will be general and vague on purpose.

Many here legally carry, oh, say, 15 round magazines in a G19, on a valid CA CCW.

Many here also travel outside CA, and have non resident permits and knowledge of sister state provisions of other states.

The gist of the issue is, everything above is specifically legal, not a grey area, but 100% legal.

A guy got to thinking, though, the last time I went to an out of state class, I took just a pistol, no mags, because I didn't have any provision to carry in that state, and simply bought some mags at a gun store, and left them with a buddy when I left. Because there doesnt currently exist a provision that lets us leave with standard mags, then bring them back.

Putting these two together, I think people need to be aware that although it's legal to carry, say, a G19 with a standard freedom week or pre mag control law magazine, and do so both here and in many other states, bringing that legally owned magazine back is a technical problem, isn't it?

My guess is no one is ever going to have a legal issue over this, but if someone was in some kind of other legal trouble, it might be used as leverage?

Thoughts?

[LoadedM333]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Putting these two together, I think people need to be aware that although it's legal to carry, say, a G19 with a standard freedom week or pre mag control law magazine, and do so both here and in many other states, bringing that legally owned magazine back is a technical problem, isn't it?

My guess is no one is ever going to have a legal issue over this, but if someone was in some kind of other legal trouble, it might be used as leverage?

Thoughts?

I switched to 10 rnd CA commie mag or buy a standard mag as you said when I traveled outside Kalifornistan.

I think bringing your own standard cap mag back to CA would be importation


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[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Putting these two together, I think people need to be aware that although it's legal to carry, say, a G19 with a standard freedom week or pre mag control law magazine, and do so both here and in many other states, bringing that legally owned magazine back is a technical problem, isn't it?

Correct, can’t bring it back in it’s standard configuration, or if it comes back, needs to be neutered to 10 rounds.

My guess is no one is ever going to have a legal issue over this, but if someone was in some kind of other legal trouble, it might be used as leverage?

No issue. States like AZ, NV, OR and midwest states (CO limits at 15) don’t care. Some people leave them in free states and use them there while visiting with no issue. Doesn’t matter if one is a Californian, CA laws don’t extend past the state line.

Don’t let CA get in your head. It’s common for people to purchase and own 10+ Mags in other states.

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

Correct, can’t bring it back in it’s standard configuration, or if it comes back, needs to be neutered to 10 rounds.



No issue. States like AZ, NV, OR and midwest states (CO limits at 15) don’t care. Some people leave them in free states and use them there while visiting with no issue. Doesn’t matter if one is a Californian, CA laws don’t extend past the state line.

Don’t let CA get in your head. It’s common for people to purchase and own 10+ Mags in other states.

Please reread me lengthy OP. I DID buy 15 rounders in Colorado, and left them there to use there. I know that no other state cares, but I don't live in those states.

My concern is leaving CA with such a mag, then returning, period.

Absolutely an issue if the wrong DA gets wind of it.

[robert101]

I see your point but having prior ownership to me validates its legality. Your are not importing. The intent of the law is not to import a high capacity magazine. You can't import something you already own. The law, to my knowledge, does not cover this type of transportation effort. The mag did not change possession, be purchased, or ownership transferred. I know this is based on common sense and not the letter of the law. Yes a grey area.

Is your car or gun imported when you return to CA? To me same premise.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Please reread me lengthy OP. I DID buy 15 rounders in Colorado, and left them there to use there. I know that no other state cares, but I don't live in those states.

My concern is leaving CA with such a mag, then returning, period.

Absolutely an issue if the wrong DA gets wind of it.

I did read it.

Didn’t see anything that would be an issue since you left them out of state.

As long as you didn’t leave CA with the 10+ mag and return with it that may be an issue (should you be pulled over and should it be made aware to an officer who wishes to cite you for it).

I’m sure there’s people who drive to NV or AZ with freedom mags and return with them without incident. While that’s not legal, no one is checking upon re-entering CA.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by robert101

I see your point but having prior ownership to me validates its legality. Your are not importing. The intent of the law is not to import a high capacity magazine. You can't import something you already own. The law, to my knowledge, does not cover this type of transportation effort. The mag did not change possession, be purchased, or ownership transferred. I know this is based on common sense and not the letter of the law. Yes a grey area.

Is your car or gun imported when you return to CA? To me same premise.

I would think that too. But as you said, it’s a grey area.

From what I’ve read from RickD, that exemption was removed a few years ago.

It’s a sticky subject for sure. And I don’t think any of us would like to be the test case since it’s a wobbler.

[RickD427]

Gents,

Please check out former Penal Code section 32340. Here is what the section used to provide:

Section 32310 does not apply to the importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the same large-capacity magazine.

The wording of that section pretty much explodes the belief that one cannot "import" a magazine that they already own, because if that were true, there would have been no purpose to this statute.

Former PC section 32340 was repealed by SB1446 which prohibited possession of large-capacity magazines, and which removed the purpose for section 32340 to exist.

CitadelGrad's point is very well taken. If a California resident were to remove their large-capacity magazine from the state, and then bring that magazine back into the state, there would be a felony violation of PC section 32310.

The changes made to section 32310 by SB1446 are currently the subject of a federal court injunction prohibiting enforcement. But the original provisions, which include the prohibitions on importation are not covered by the injunction.

As a purely technical point, I have to take exception to the argument that the current possession of a large-capacity magazine is "100% legal." That's not the case. The statute making such possession a crime remains in place. It has not been removed from the law. The current injunction makes it a very "toothless" law, and the two arrests for simple possession that I'm aware of never proceeded to trial because of the injunction (one was dismissed during pre-trial hearings and one never even made it to filing).

But if anyone believes that such possession is "100% legal", then please cite the process by which PC 32310(c) was removed from statute.

As a purely practical matter, I would have no hesitation to carry large-capacity magazines while the injunction is in place. While it is technically possible that one could be prosecuted for possession of magazines while the injunction was in place, after the injunction were lifted, there's a ton of good arguments against such prosecutions. Donald Trump would have a better chance of being elected as California's Governor.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by RickD427

As a purely technical point, I have to take exception to the argument that the current possession of a large-capacity magazine is "100% legal."

Well then, can we agree it's not currently 100% illegal?

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

Well then, can we agree it's not currently 100% illegal?

Methinks, respectfully, that it's still "100% Illegal" so long as PC 32310(c) remains chaptered in the Penal Code. You can't say it's not there when it's still there. As to being "100%", the law is quite binary. It's either "100%" or "Zero%" with nothing in-between.

But concerning your point, it's a meaningless statute so long as the injunction remains in place, and I'm in agreement that folks can freely use their large-capacity magazines until the injunction is resolved.

[johnthomas]

I haven't been to CA for a year. When I did or have to, I carried and will carry to guns I bought in CA with 10 round mags in a locked case. I have CCW in Nevada, not in CA.

[hermosabeach]

Same with ammo

If you did not buy the ammo with a background check- you can't take it out and return to CA.

So if you had 15 cases of ammo of say 9MM... and you have not needed to buy 9mm.... if you leave and return that appears to be a violation of the law

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

I did read it.

Didn’t see anything that would be an issue since you left them out of state.

As long as you didn’t leave CA with the 10+ mag and return with it that may be an issue (should you be pulled over and should it be made aware to an officer who wishes to cite you for it).

I’m sure there’s people who drive to NV or AZ with freedom mags and return with them without incident. While that’s not legal, no one is checking upon re-entering CA.

And im not ASKING about leaving them out of state. I said thats what i did...because leaving with legal mags and returning is the problem.

[Big Jake]

Originally Posted by robert101

I see your point but having prior ownership to me validates its legality. Your are not importing. The intent of the law is not to import a high capacity magazine. You can't import something you already own. The law, to my knowledge, does not cover this type of transportation effort. The mag did not change possession, be purchased, or ownership transferred. I know this is based on common sense and not the letter of the law. Yes a grey area.

Is your car or gun imported when you return to CA? To me same premise.

While you may be technically correct in your interpretation of the law the real world works a bit differently. Do you want to be the test case on that premise? Try arguing that point to a CHP LEO who stops you on the side of the road and finds out you have "high cap mags". It may not go as smoothly as you think. Just sayin!

[P5Ret]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

Same with ammo

If you did not buy the ammo with a background check- you can't take it out and return to CA.

So if you had 15 cases of ammo of say 9MM... and you have not needed to buy 9mm.... if you leave and return that appears to be a violation of the law

Can you back that up? I've seen nothing in the law that suggests that to be the case.

The law says you can not obtain ammo out of state, and bring it back. There are exemptions to that, that are pretty easy to fit into. I've seen nothing in the current law about leaving and coming back with left over ammo. Nor do I think there is any way to prove a particular batch of ammo was purchased with a back ground check.

Never mind that any violation of that law is an infraction, so the entire thing would have to be witnessed by the officer, from purchase to crossing the state line.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

Same with ammo

If you did not buy the ammo with a background check- you can't take it out and return to CA.

So if you had 15 cases of ammo of say 9MM... and you have not needed to buy 9mm.... if you leave and return that appears to be a violation of the law

The law appears to disagree:

30314. (a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.

Ammunition taken out and brought back isn’t, “...purchased or otherwise obtained...,” outside of the state.
/

ETA: Ammunition purchased out of state prior to enactment of the statute doesn’t present a problem, as the statute has a “commencing” date.
Ditto on P5ret.

[kris smith]

Also if you have a coe and a ffl03 you can buy ammo out of state and transport “import” into the state

[Bunnysloper]

Disclaimer: I’m not a law expert.

My Opinion: if you are carrying 10+ mags in CA (freedom week mags) then getting caught with them crossing state line would be the same issue, as you have to prove that you had them prior. Now, if you get caught with them and they raid your house and you had proof that you got the 10+ mags, let just say 5, but you have a total of 10 mags. Then, that would be a problem. If you ended up with 5 mags total, then it would only be the same as if you were caught with them while in CA.

Not sure if that make sense.


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[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by Bunnysloper

Disclaimer: I’m not a law expert.

My Opinion: if you are carrying 10+ mags in CA (freedom week mags) then getting caught with them crossing state line would be the same issue, as you have to prove that you had them prior.

Two issues:

1. Possession of Large Capacity Magazines (LCMs), is illegal in CA, but the statute effecting that is enjoined from enforcement pending trial and appeals. One doesn’t have to prove they got the mags during Freedom Week (or owned them prior to 2000).

2. Importation of LCMs into CA under any conditions (by non-exempt individuals) is illegal.

As RickD427 [url=https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=25738669&postcount=8 pointed out[/url], above, the statutes previously allowed folks who owned LCMs prior to 2000 to take them out of the state and return with them. That provision was amended out of the law.

That leaves us with the problem that, while one can possess and use LCMs within CA, if those LCMs are taken out of CA, it is illegal to bring them back, regardless of how or when they were acquired.

Originally Posted by Bunnysloper

Now, if you get caught with them

And, again, you can only “get caught” for importing the LCMs. The statue prohibiting possession is not enforceable at this time.

Originally Posted by Bunnysloper

...and they raid your house

They have no grounds to raid your house, however, during your arrest for illegal importation of LCM, you may help them to develop probable cause to search everything you own.

Originally Posted by Bunnysloper

... and you had proof that you got the 10+ mags, let just say 5, but you have a total of 10 mags. Then, that would be a problem. If you ended up with 5 mags total, then it would only be the same as if you were caught with them while in CA.

Again, the prohibition against possessing LCMs isn’t currently enforceable. But, if you are caught importing 1 (one) LCM, and can prove you purchased 100 LCMs during freedom week and had another 100 from pre-2000, you can still be prosecuted for the single importation.

[hermosabeach]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

ETA: Ammunition purchased out of state prior to enactment of the statute doesn’t present a problem, as the statute has a “commencing” date.
Ditto on P5ret.

So the Law say-
No ammo brought in after the commencing date - unless shipped to Dealer.

If you "old Ammo" was not purchased via a background check- then you cannot bring ammo into the state - it has to go through a background check purchase.


The lawmakers don't care that you take classes out of state and return with unused ammo.

The lawmakers don't care that yo have a NV/AZ/UT CCW and travel with your gun....

noting in the law about removing and returning.... After the commencement date- ammo needs a back ground check. If you bring ammo in that was not purchased with a background check.... it's technically illegal.

--
We know CHP likes to stop people returning to CA via Pahrump to look for fireworks being smuggled... maybe ammo will be on their list too

[P5Ret]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

So the Law say-
No ammo brought in after the commencing date - unless shipped to Dealer.

If you "old Ammo" was not purchased via a background check- then you cannot bring ammo into the state - it has to go through a background check purchase.


The lawmakers don't care that you take classes out of state and return with unused ammo.

The lawmakers don't care that yo have a NV/AZ/UT CCW and travel with your gun....

noting in the law about removing and returning.... After the commencement date- ammo needs a back ground check. If you bring ammo in that was not purchased with a background check.... it's technically illegal.

--
We know CHP likes to stop people returning to CA via Pahrump to look for fireworks being smuggled... maybe ammo will be on their list too

This is master class FUD dispensing.

Are you making things up to fit what you want it to say? Laws generally tell someone what you can't do, not what you can do. Realistically saying that there is nothing in the law about removing and returning, so it must be illegal is nonsense.

You may want to carefully read the law, paying particular attention to the part where it says "a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state". You'll notice it does not say "brought in", it does say purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state. If I had purchased or obtained it in Ca prior to leaving how did I obtain it outside of Ca when it never left my possession?


What check is there to determine if the ammo was purchased with a background check or not? When I bought .30-30 at Sportsman's Warehouse last month they ran the background check prior to getting the ammo out of the case. Come to think of it they ran it before they even knew what I was buying. So evidently that information isn't recorded anywhere, based on that experience.

[Dvrjon]

hermosabeach;25741549]So the Law say-
No ammo brought in after the commencing date - unless shipped to Dealer.

If you "old Ammo" was not purchased via a background check- then you cannot bring ammo into the state - it has to go through a background check purchase.

First, ditto, P5RET.

Second, that isn’t, “...what the law say... (sic)”

Remember, the statute is based on Proposition 63, which was entitled, Background Checks for Ammunition Purchases and Large-Capacity Ammunition Magazine Ban Initiative. It cannot apply to ammunition purchase made prior to its enactment.

The law says (posted earlier) that:

30314. (a) Commencing January 1, 2018,

That means that the conditions which follow in the statute are only applicable to actions commencing 1/1/2018, or later.

...a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state

That means that ammunition purchased or otherwise obtained within CA is outside of the purview of this statute. Additionally, the only out-of-state purchases which cannot be imported into CA are out-of-state purchases made after 1/1/2018. Ammunition which you own in CA and take out of state has not been, “purchased or otherwise acquired” out of state, so is not covered under this statute.

...unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.

Standard process, unless you have a COE+FFL or other exemption. But, it only applies to purchasing ammo or otherwise obtaining it outside of CA after 1/1/2018. The ammo you currently own, regardless of where or how you obtained it, is your property. It is not subject to the purchasing control of the Proposition because the purchase occurred prior to the Proposition’s existence.

hermosabeach;25741549]The lawmakers don't care that you take classes out of state and return with unused ammo.

The lawmakers don't care that yo have a NV/AZ/UT CCW and travel with your gun....

The “lawmakers” didn’t pass this law. The people of CA passed it through the Proposition process. Regardless, neither of these issues is relevant to the issue at point.

hermosabeach;25741549]noting (sic...”nothing”?) in the law about removing and returning.... After the commencement date- ammo needs a back ground check. If you bring ammo in that was not purchased with a background check.... it's technically illegal.

Again, that’s not what the statute says. The only ammo controlled by this statute is ammo which is purchased or otherwise obtained out of state after the commencement date of 1/1/2019.

--

hermosabeach;25741549]We know CHP likes to stop people returning to CA via Pahrump to look for fireworks being smuggled... maybe ammo will be on their list too.

Or maybe, Fois Gras; or, 1 HP swimming pool pumps; or, ferrets; or...... How do we “know” this? Moreover, how would the LEOs make the case that the ammo was, “Purchased or otherwise obtained,” outside of CA?

[kris smith]

I can’t even count how many times I have passed chp at checkpoints driving rolling probable cause crossing state lines and all I get is do you have any fruit? I mean if the laws specifically say it is illegal then it’s “illegal” if it doesn’t specify then why give up anything that isn’t outlined in words. Why doe FUDDS insist on reading in further to laws and self restricting?