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  #1  
Old 01-05-2024, 11:28 PM
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Default Can I display a semi-auto with "assault" features if the bolt is removed

I read somewhere that removal of a key self-loading feature like barrel, gas tube, or BCG makes a semi-auto fall under the same rules as a manual action rifle (26" OAL, evil features allowed)

I just want to know if I can display my AUG with 16" flash hider barrel with grip or even an Uzi clone with dummy short barrel and folding stock as long as the gun is rendered unusable.
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Old 01-06-2024, 10:49 AM
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Someone more knowledgeable may swing by with a complete answer later, but I believe the DOJ considers a "broken" AW to still be an AW. You can do whatever you want but consider risk vs reward.
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Old 01-06-2024, 10:55 AM
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I'm just speculating here, but if you were to remove the bolt you could not even fire the rifle even if you hand loaded each round into the chamber unless you wanted to basically blow yourself up. I'm not sure how it could still be considered an assault weapon if it is essentially a single shot rifle because of the need to have to extract and reload a new round by hand each and every time because there is no bolt in it. It can no longer be considered a semi-automatic rifle. However, our laws are so ****ing convoluted and written in such a bull**** way that they can basically prosecute anybody for anything
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Old 01-06-2024, 11:03 AM
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Without the bolt it is no longer semi auto nor center fire.
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Old 01-06-2024, 11:22 AM
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Just make sure you don't own a bolt. Not even one in another rifle that would fit your boltless rifle.
Actually, don't be dumb enough to test this stupidity out.
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Old 01-06-2024, 11:53 AM
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^^^THIS^^^

The trick is whether or not the bolt is “present”.

11 CCR ? 5741: Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.
Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)
And for those who may still think the above definitions are for registration only, they also apply to identifying an AW:

11 CCR ? 5460, Application of Definitions.
Quote:
The definitions of terms in section 5471 of this chapter shall apply to the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 30515.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 01-06-2024 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 01-06-2024, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedro View Post
Just make sure you don't own a bolt. Not even one in another rifle that would fit your boltless rifle.
Actually, don't be dumb enough to test this stupidity out.
There is no constructive possession. In fact, when the bullet button registration came up, you could either register, change to featureless or fixed mag(like the compmag or JT hellfire), or just separate the upper and the lower. You can control both the upper and the lower, with all AW features, as long as the upper and lower are separate. So making it a non functional gun by removing the bolt or whole bolt carrier, is enough. If you turn it into a non semi auto gun, that?s all that matters.
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Old 01-06-2024, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
There is no constructive possession. In fact, when the bullet button registration came up, you could either register, change to featureless or fixed mag(like the compmag or JT hellfire), or just separate the upper and the lower. You can control both the upper and the lower, with all AW features, as long as the upper and lower are separate. So making it a non functional gun by removing the bolt or whole bolt carrier, is enough. If you turn it into a non semi auto gun, that?s all that matters.
The separation of upper/lower receiver pertains solely to the AR-15 style firearm. See the regs posted ((hh)(3)), above.

Arguably, the body of (hh) is the answer to constructive possession. If you have all needed parts in a box, it may be construed to be a mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm, making it an AW. See: People v. Nguyen.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 01-06-2024 at 12:13 PM..
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2024, 12:22 PM
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-snip nevermind, bad reading comprehension

Last edited by FantomFox; 01-06-2024 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 01-06-2024, 12:44 PM
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remember the couple that stood on the porch with guns....

the police found hers non operable and fixed it....


Some called it tampering with evidence


mc Claskey or something like that....



to be very vague- where will this be displayed? Rack of pick up truck?
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Old 01-06-2024, 12:50 PM
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No I just mean in the house, for pictures or showing my friends what a non-cucked gun looks like
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Old 01-06-2024, 1:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
The separation of upper/lower receiver pertains solely to the AR-15 style firearm. See the regs posted ((hh)(3)), above.

Arguably, the body of (hh) is the answer to constructive possession. If you have all needed parts in a box, it may be construed to be a mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm, making it an AW. See: People v. Nguyen.

Please don?t ever reference People v Nguyen. The guy was too stupid. He allowed a search, brought them to all the guns and parts, and then talked his way into jail.

And no, it doesn’t just pertain to ar15s. It applies to all guns deemed an AW when the bullet button AW ban went into effect. I could have broken my Scar 17 into and upper and lower, or an MP5, etc. Nothing said it was only for ar15s. It said AR15 style, which is a semi automatic rifle that has an upper and lower.

Last edited by jcwatchdog; 01-06-2024 at 1:56 PM..
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FantomFox View Post
No I just mean in the house, for pictures or showing my friends what a non-cucked gun looks like

First of all, if it?s just to take pictures that you?re asking for permission, look no further why we?re screwed here in California.

And remove meta data from your pictures, you could have taken the pictures in another state, and who knows when you took the picture.
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
Quiet posted in a thread from a couple of years ago regarding arrests and convictions for ?attempted possession of an assault rifle? and ?possession of a broken assault rifle?. I am not good at cutting and pasting, but here it is:

?attempted manufacture and possession of an assault weapon" involved a case where all the parts to make a functional firearm, that would be considered an assault weapon and no parts that could make it into a CA legal firearm, were found together and the person who possessed those parts admitted to wanting to use them to make a functional firearm.

"broken assault weapon" involved a case where a semi-auto centerfire rifle with restricted features (detachable mag, pistol grip, flash suppressor) had it's bolt-carrier group removed and stored nearby the firearm. There was evidence (pictures, witness statements) that the firearm had been made functional on occasion and used in CA and in other States.

It is recommended by FPC/CGRF and NRA/CRPA lawyers that, when relying on disassembling a firearm to make it a firearm that is not considered an assault weapon, then those parts should not be stored or transported together.

And here is the thread: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1763496

Well I do have the fin grip, and barrel with compliant muzzle device a few feet away. By this reading I am in the clear since I can in fact configure it legally

https://imgur.com/a/pQ8n49b
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
Please don?t ever reference People v Nguyen. The guy was too stupid. He allowed a search, brought them to all the guns and parts, and then talked his way into jail.

And no, it doesn?t just pertain to ar15s. It applies to all guns deemed an AW when the bullet button AW ban went into effect. I could have broken my Scar 17 into and upper and lower, or an MP5, etc. Nothing said it was only for ar15s. Not said AR15 style, which is a semi automatic rifle that has an upper and lower.
Please take the time to re-read my posts above.

Granted, Nguyen was a criminal and a moron, and although his case was not constructive possession, it is instructive.

Although he was convicted of attempted unlawful assault weapon activity and attempted possession of an assault weapon (based substantially on his comments to investigators), the reality is that he had a box full of parts containing everything needed to assemble the firearm and had taken action to form the parts to function (AK-47 flat bending). It was not assembled and he got busted when he told investigators he intended to build the gun and he knew it was illegal for him, as a felon, to do so.

That was in 2013, before the current AW regs were in place (2019). With the new regulations, one need not state an intent to do anything. The regulation addresses the box of parts issue and the broken gun issue.

Regarding the separation of uppers from lowers, if you take the time to read those regulations (posted earlier) you may find that section (hh) addresses this with limited clarifications and exceptions. Subdivision (hh)(3) specifically mentions AR-15 style weapons. Other platforms are not mentioned so are not excepted.

What you could have done with other platforms is irrelevant to the reg except that you would have all of the necessary and critical parts present constituting a semi-automatic firearm. With evil features and center fire, it would be an AW.

Best.
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
First of all, if it?s just to take pictures that you?re asking for permission, look no further why we?re screwed here in California.

And remove meta data from your pictures, you could have taken the pictures in another state, and who knows when you took the picture.
Completely agree. And for God’s sake, do not post them on social media.

Also, use a neutral background and move the pictures off your device so they are not sandwiched between other pictures that establish date/place sequence. (This is getting too hard).
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FantomFox View Post
Well I do have the fin grip, and barrel with compliant muzzle device a few feet away. By this reading I am in the clear since I can in fact configure it legally

https://imgur.com/a/pQ8n49b
You are coming at this backwards. The box of parts issue (Nguyen) could have been mitigated if he had compliant features in the box. But, since they were not there, he could not make the case that he might have intended to build a compliant rifle.

In your case, you are going to hang a built AW on your wall. It is no longer a question of what you were going to build or could build - - it is on the wall. It is a AW. That leaves you with the reg (hh) section to make sure a critical part is not present. But again, no one has defined what ‘present” means here. I would hazard a guess that not in the same room would be a good start.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 01-07-2024 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 01-06-2024, 2:59 PM
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I never had one, but a friend bought an Uzi way back when. It came with a 16 inch functional barrel and a small non functional barrel to be used for display.

Then he bought an 18 inch barrel, because the 16 inch one does not meet overall length requirement for California.

Cool gun, but too heavy. Like my AR9 better with Colt/Uzi mags
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Old 01-06-2024, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
In your case, you are going to hang a built AW on your wall. It is no longer a question of what you were going to build or could build - - it is on the wall. It is a AW. That leaves you with the reg (hh) section to make sure a critical part is not present. But again, no one has defined what
?present? means here. I would hazard a guess that not in the same room would be a good start.
So anyone who owns an AR with features and a kalikey or .22 CMMG bolt is breaking the law? Because if the unsusable AUG with features becomes illegal by one BCG slotting in, what about those things which can also go from rimfire or manual action to illegal semi in one simple bolt swap. And I've never heard of anyone having to remove their .223 bolts out of their gun room or range bag
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Old 01-07-2024, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FantomFox View Post
So anyone who owns an AR with features and a kalikey or .22 CMMG bolt is breaking the law? Because if the unsusable AUG with features becomes illegal by one BCG slotting in, what about those things which can also go from rimfire or manual action to illegal semi in one simple bolt swap. And I've never heard of anyone having to remove their .223 bolts out of their gun room or range bag
Read the reg. Apply it to your questions. Draw your conclusions.

But in your examples, the guns are built in non-AW configurations. That shows intent for the use of the weapons. Having non-compliant parts around does not mean you intend to rebuild the gun to an AW (unless you tell the investigators you intend to like Nguyen did).

In this instance, the OP is going to assemble an AW without a bolt so it is not a semi-auto. But if the bolt is present (whatever that means) the reg says it?s a semi-auto which, since it is an evil-featured center fire rifle, makes it an AW. The fact he has compliant components available is irrelevant except to show he could have built a compliant gun but did not. That would probably be seen as an indicator of intent to build the AW.
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Old 01-07-2024, 5:15 PM
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FWIW...

In the past (circa 2005) there was an arrest and conviction for possessing a "broken assault weapon".

The firearm was an off-list FAL style semi-auto centerfire rifle with restricted features (pistol grip) that had its bolt-carrier group removed but stored nearby the firearm.

CA LEOs encountered the firearm due to a domestic violence call.

The bolt-carrier group was stored with loaded large capacity magazines, all of which was nearby the firearm.

Evidence was collected showing that the firearm had been made functional and had been discharged post-2000.
^Evidence included videos, pictures, and third-party witness statements.

The possessor ended up being convicted of possessing a "broken" assault weapon.
^Firearm was non-functional but the parts to make it functional were present with the firearm (stored nearby), so the Court and Jury accepted the DA's explanation that it was "broken" and not made permanently inoperable.

This case was why CRPA/NRA and FPC.CGRF lawyers advised to not store or transport parts that can make a firearm into an illegal prohibited weapon together.
^The Nguyen case was used as further evidence of the importance of this.
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Old 01-07-2024, 8:00 PM
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This still sounds like the vague thing ever, this means that everyone with a kydex fin grip on an AK or an AR with a compmag are in trouble too since we all own screwdrivers nearby...

Or how about people who own pistols with picatinny rails and a magpul vert grip, because at any moment they can be made into an AOW? Or own an AR stock and a braced AR pistol?

And how broken down must the gun be before it's safe, like if I disassemble it for cleaning by pulling the barrel and bolt? Must I throw the bolt into the city dump before taking off the fin wrap too???

Sorry for troubling you guys with these edge pushing questions, I'll just keep it in featureless HBAR configuration. Which is ironically deadlier than the shorter barrel
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Old 01-08-2024, 2:56 PM
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IMO...
If you want to display a firearm, then use an imitation firearm (replica, airsoft, etc), which can legally be in any type of configuration.
^This is what the CA entertainment industry does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FantomFox View Post
Or own an AR stock and a braced AR pistol?
If the possessor only owns an AR pistol and they obtain ownership or control over an unattached stock that can be used on the AR pistol [PC 17170(e)], then they are in possession of an illegal SBR [PC 33215].



Penal Code 17170
As used in this part, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 33215
Except as provided in Sections 33220 and 33225 and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
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Old 01-09-2024, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARDude View Post
I never had one, but a friend bought an Uzi way back when. It came with a 16 inch functional barrel and a small non functional barrel to be used for display.

Then he bought an 18 inch barrel, because the 16 inch one does not meet overall length requirement for California.

Cool gun, but too heavy. Like my AR9 better with Colt/Uzi mags
I had a California sanitized Uzi. Cool gun, always wanted one. It weighed a ton and I shot it once, found it extremely boring to shoot and sold it. OTOH, shooting a F/A in America, Uzis are awesome. They just make a lousy PCC.
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Old 02-07-2024, 8:33 PM
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No, displaying a semi-automatic rifle with "assault" features, even with the bolt removed, does not exempt it from regulations regarding such features. The presence of these features still categorizes the firearm as an "assault weapon" under most laws, regardless of its operational state.
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Old 02-07-2024, 9:31 PM
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My guess is that the state looks at the lower receiver as the firearms (in the case of the AR-15). Attach any of the prohibited features and it is an assault weapon, regardless of what is not attached.

I'm short on cash for my legal fund, but feel free to be the test case for us.
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Old 02-11-2024, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by opticsauthority View Post
No, displaying a semi-automatic rifle with "assault" features, even with the bolt removed, does not exempt it from regulations regarding such features. The presence of these features still categorizes the firearm as an "assault weapon" under most laws, regardless of its operational state.
If you mean PC 30515 for example, and if you mean by removed bolt, you mean it is lacking a bolt carrier, then you would be wrong. You?ve failed to read ccr 5471, section hh and realize that this is expressly defined as lawful.

So, inquiring minds want to know specifically which pc you are thinking of.

bbraw has different laws, but you didn?t say raw, just aw.
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Old 02-11-2024, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
My guess is that the state looks at the lower receiver as the firearms (in the case of the AR-15). Attach any of the prohibited features and it is an assault weapon, regardless of what is not attached.
See CCR 5471 hh for a list of things that once removed would cause it to not be an aw.
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Old 02-11-2024, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post
If you mean PC 30515 for example, and if you mean by removed bolt, you mean it is lacking a bolt carrier, then you would be wrong. You've failed to read ccr 5471, section hh and realize that this is expressly defined as lawful.

So, inquiring minds want to know specifically which pc you are thinking of.

bbraw has different laws, but you didn't say raw, just aw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post
See CCR 5471 hh for a list of things that once removed would cause it to not be an aw.
See Post #21.

In addition...
As explained by CA DOJ BOF agents, 11 CCR 5471(hh) defines "semiautomatic" to mean that the necessary mechanical parts to make the firearm function in a semiautomatic nature must be present. But, the "must be present" is not limited to the parts being installed in the firearm and can include parts being found with the firearm.
^This viewpoint is in line with the previous CA cases involving felony convictions for possessing a "broken" assault weapon (Chakker) and for the "attempt to make and possess an assault weapon" (Nguyen).

This type of reasoning by CA DOJ is why CA firearm lawyers (CRPA/NRA and FPC/CGRF) consistently advise to not store or transport parts that can make a firearm into an illegal prohibited weapon together.
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

Last edited by Quiet; 02-11-2024 at 8:35 PM..
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