*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

[rodralig]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Then we did a drill where we shoot 6 shots. Load the weapon with a mag with 5 rounds and when the gun is empty do an emergency reload and get one more shot off. Drill was supposed to get you used to managing recoil with shots of rapid succession while throwing in running the gun dry and having to reload and get another shot off.

interesting Vinnie... i remember you heavily flamed me when i shared a dry practice video of a similar drill as a response to a different OP a couple of years back... if i would recall correctly, you immediately criticized it as a useless drill, we didnt know how to train, and was a waste of ammo, or something to that effect...

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Much more modern and what Iv'e experienced in other more "combat" based classes I've taken elsewhere. What ai like about those types of classes is the techniques that they use and teach have reasons and rationales for why they are the way they re with real-world examples to support why it's done that way, and when something new comes along that proves it's better that what was preciously taught they incorporate that into the curriculum.

but it is good to hear that you are now more open-minded to different approaches. i read elsewhere that you have incorporated Scott's draw for a red dot, and of course, you have taken several of Max's classes...



anyways thanks for your day to day review of PF. really wanted one last time to try it out, in particular the new curriculum. but alas, the $250/day the time I am able to make it out is just not worth it. so, i will simply experience it vicariously through your after action report.


_

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by rodralig

interesting Vinnie... i remember you heavily flamed me when i shared a dry practice video of a similar drill as a response to a different OP a couple of years back... if i would recall correctly, you immediately criticized it as a useless drill, we didnt know how to train, and was a waste of ammo, or something to that effect...




but it is good to hear that you are now more open-minded to different approaches. i read elsewhere that you have incorporated Scott's draw for a red dot, and of course, you have taken several of Max's classes...



anyways thanks for your day to day review of PF. really wanted one last time to try it out, in particular the new curriculum. but alas, the $250/day the time I am able to make it out is just not worth it. so, i will simply experience it vicariously through your after action report. When I was brand new and didn't know a darn thing, what would the point be to do a drill like that? In that case, yes it was a waste or ammo and accomplishes nothing.


_

I am trying to attend classes with whoever, whenever I can. Tried to sign up for a couple Thunder Ranch classes later this year but the ones that I wanted to take during the times I had off from work were already full. Also attending another Appleseed class next month, but I'm sure a class like that is well beneath your level, but for $75 it's a killer 2-day class.

Lots of things I like and other things I don't like with any class I take. You take what you like and incorporate it into your own practice and ignore the stuff you don't like. For a brand new shooter I still think rapid fire drills like that are kind of dumb if they can't mitigate and control recoil with single shots yet, nor have the fundamentals and basics down to consistency shoot straight. I still stand by that and say there are a LOT of folks who go out, but a firearm, pimp it out with all the cool mods and crap that they think they need while spending a ton of money doing so and on a bunch of gear because it looks cool and because Reddit tells you to, yet spend little time and investment in actually training and getting good, solid instruction. As an instructor said once, if all you do is go to a range and crank off a bunch of shots without knowing what you're doing, you're just spending money and making noise.

[BadKitty]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Next we moved on to tactical and emergency reloads. Tactical reloads are now taught but taking a mag out of your pouch, indexing and then they showed us two different ways to remove the mag int he gun while retaining the new mag int he same hand. I was taught this method elsewhere recently as well. So you have the new mag in your hand in your middle, ring and pinky fingers and use your thumb and index finger to remove the mag in the gun, insert the new mag, give it a tug to ensure it's seated properly and then put the old mag in a pocket. Emergency reloads no longer involve doing a "mag check" first, otherwise are the same.

...

They type III is more in line with what I've learned in other classes that were more "combat focused" I guess. Weapon comes back into your work space and you tap, rack. If that doesn't fix the issue (and you'll see that it didn't fix the issue because it's up in your workspace) you simply press the magazine release and forcefully rip out the magazine, retain it (I retain it with my pinky finger of my firing hand) then rack it several times, re-insert the mag you retained, charge the gun and get back on target.

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

[XDJYo]

Thanks Vinnie for the in depth review! Appreciate the time and effort it took to do this for the CG community!

Sounds like PF is improving the FS course and hopefully it can continue and survive.

ETA: Do they still have the machine gun shoot at lunch? J/K.

Something like THIS would be awesome!
https://youtu.be/iG4nbelx7nM

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

They do not and never did teach a mag check and chamber check during an emergency reload. They only taught mag checks and chamber checks where when you got up to the firing line and loaded your weapon to begin an exercise. They teach it differently now. You come out of your holster, out to the ready then up into your workspace, load your magazine, give it a tug to make sure it's seated, rack the slide then do a chamber check (all up in the workspace) and then proceed.

Every place teaches Type 3 malfunction clearances a little differently, but in the end they're very similar and accomplish the same end result which is to clear the malfunction and get back the weapon running again. I personally always try to retain the mag. It's actually faster (I've timed myself clearing the malfunction by stripping it to the ground and by retaining it and retaining it is faster). Also, you may not have a spare mag available, and dumping that mag/possibly your only mag would not be a good idea if that was the case. So you strip that mag to the ground, clear the malfunction and then realize you have no spare mag in your pouch. Now what? I've also seen people stow the mag under their arm/in their armpit of their firing side while clearing the malfunction if you don't like retaining it with a pinky or your hands are too small to do so. Some places teach you to lock the slide back like the old Front Sight way, while other places (including Prairie Fire) teach you to hold the mag release while forcefully ripping the mag out and do not teach you to lock the slice back. Many different ways to do the same thing that hopefully achieves the same end result.

Just don't be the student in any class that says "we do it this way at my agency", or, "we do it differently at this other place I train at." This happens a bunch with travel nurses who come in for temporary contracts and say, "Well, that's not how we do it at the hospital I came from", etc. Guess what? We don't care how you did it somewhere else because you're here now. When I was a travel nurse I would tell the staff, "I'm a guest in your house. You show he how you want me to do it while I'm here."

Was actually talking about the with a couple other students yesterday. We were commenting on learning the new curriculum and how we've been enjoying it even if it's been a sometimes frustrating transition for a few in the class. I've also seen it during other classes where a student invests time and money coming to a class but is resistant and pushes back on things being taught or refuses to try it and keeps going back to the way they're comfortable with. Why bother coming to a class if all you're going to do is push back and not have an open mind and try something new? My take is they're probably a bit self-conscious or embarrassed to try the new techniques fr fear of not sooting well during the class. The thing is nobody else cares how you're shooting. That type of person would be better off saving their money, and what I've found is if there is something I'm having a lot of trouble with and suck at it, that's the exact thing I need to focus on and practice the most.

[Citizen_B]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

As Vinnie replied above, neither FS nor PF was teaching emergency/speed reload with an accompanying mag/chamber check.

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

My other minor disagreement with PF method is with tugging on the mag after loading. I understand it's administrative but I don't find it useful. I think the mag should be inserted with sufficient force to ensure it's seated every time, and everyone should be training that way. If for some reason I think it may not be seated, I actually put my firing hand pinky below the inserted mag and can feel if it's seated or not. Again, just my thing. The PF method is WAY better than the FS method which would have you actually eject the mag then reinsert it. That never made any sense to me for a number of reasons and glad to see it's gone from the PF curriculum.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

<tactical reload> I was taught this method elsewhere recently as well. So you have the new mag in your hand in your middle, ring and pinky fingers and use your thumb and index finger to remove the mag in the gun, insert the new mag, give it a tug to ensure it's seated properly and then put the old mag in a pocket.

FS also taught this technique many moons ago.

Class focused on a quick recap of the previous day then moved into malfunctions. they don't call them type I, II, III., etc. They only teach two types (what was previously called type I and Type III) but I apologize as I already forgot the terms they used to describe the two. They type III is more in line with what I've learned in other classes that were more "combat focused" I guess. Weapon comes back into your work space and you tap, rack. If that doesn't fix the issue (and you'll see that it didn't fix the issue because it's up in your workspace) you simply press the magazine release and forcefully rip out the magazine, retain it (I retain it with my pinky finger of my firing hand) then rack it several times, re-insert the mag you retained, charge the gun and get back on target.

That's effectively the 'Its far more likely to be a Type I/II so try that first technique' - reasonably effective on a handgun, but it doesn't translate as well to non handguns as its much more difficult to know if it worked without trying to shoot. I think malfunction assessment is faster technique in the real world, but this technique for handgun competition shooting is nearly always faster.


Thanks for the review.

[BadKitty]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Just don't be the student in any class that says "we do it this way at my agency", or, "we do it differently at this other place I train at." This happens a bunch with travel nurses who come in for temporary contracts and say, "Well, that's not how we do it at the hospital I came from", etc. Guess what? We don't care how you did it somewhere else because you're here now. When I was a travel nurse I would tell the staff, "I'm a guest in your house. You show he how you want me to do it while I'm here."

Was actually talking about the with a couple other students yesterday. We were commenting on learning the new curriculum and how we've been enjoying it even if it's been a sometimes frustrating transition for a few in the class. I've also seen it during other classes where a student invests time and money coming to a class but is resistant and pushes back on things being taught or refuses to try it and keeps going back to the way they're comfortable with. Why bother coming to a class if all you're going to do is push back and not have an open mind and try something new? My take is they're probably a bit self-conscious or embarrassed to try the new techniques fr fear of not sooting well during the class. The thing is nobody else cares how you're shooting. That type of person would be better off saving their money, and what I've found is if there is something I'm having a lot of trouble with and suck at it, that's the exact thing I need to focus on and practice the most.

I hope my post wasn't misunderstood. I did not intend imply that I would refuse to learn any new techniques. On the contrary, I was interested in the differences you posted and I was asking about them out of interest in learning something. Rest assured, when I go to a class, I perform whatever is being instructed. What's the point of going to a class if I refuse to consider alternate options?

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

As for Type-III malfunctions, truth be told, they don't always go the "textbook" way for me (how I described in my post). I hit the mag release at the same time I'm bringing the slide back to lock it. If the mag drops out on its own and I'm not jammed up, then I skip the full lock and go straight to the rack. I don't ever need to rack "three times". As soon as I see the round fly out I'm reaching for the next mag and not wasting time with extra racks just because the agency manual says so. When I reinsert my mag, it almost always slaps the slide back into battery without me having to rack. So, no need to tap rack roll when I'm already in battery. I only do the "full textbook" demonstration once a year during the annual requal because we are required to demonstrate all of the steps.

.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

As Vinnie replied above, neither FS nor PF was teaching emergency/speed reload with an accompanying mag/chamber check.

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

My other minor disagreement with PF method is with tugging on the mag after loading. I understand it's administrative but I don't find it useful. I think the mag should be inserted with sufficient force to ensure it's seated every time, and everyone should be training that way. If for some reason I think it may not be seated, I actually put my firing hand pinky below the inserted mag and can feel if it's seated or not. Again, just my thing. The PF method is WAY better than the FS method which would have you actually eject the mag then reinsert it. That never made any sense to me for a number of reasons and glad to see it's gone from the PF curriculum.

Agree with pretty much everything here. Throwing to the ground depends on a few things?condition of the mag, whether or not the shooter has hands big enough and/or is coordinated enough to retain and the retype of handgun being used. As stated, each pistol is different and I have some pistols where you just cannot get that mag out without locking it back first. Others, like my G17 where I use Vickers base plates on all my mags, you can easily rip that mag out without locking the slide back. Another thing to note, when ripping mags out and not locking back the slide, be VERY careful if you pick up your rounds off the ground. Using that method of forcefully ripping out the mags without locking the slide back I noticed several bullets being pushed back into the case. If I would have loaded and tried to fire those rounds it could have been bad. That?s why I just left them on the ground. Not worth the risk.

Regarding the mag tug, this is something that just varied from school to school. One place I took a class didn’t have us tug, other places taught the tug. One school taught us to give the back of the slide a little “ chop” after chambering a round and before going back to the holster to ensure the weapon is in battery. Little things that vary from school to school that we can choose to incorporate or not incorporate into our own routines.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

I hope my post wasn't misunderstood. I did not intend imply that I would refuse to learn any new techniques. On the contrary, I was interested in the differences you posted and I was asking about them out of interest in learning something. Rest assured, when I go to a class, I perform whatever is being instructed. What's the point of going to a class if I refuse to consider alternate options?

.

Absolutely wasn’t interpreted that way at all, and sort of it came across that way! It just reminded me of students in the past who come to the class and instead of having an open mind and trying. EQ things decided to lecture the instructors on how they do it and apparently thought they were the ones tea hing the class.

I bought a couple friends out with me once. I vowed to never bring them out again. They fought the instructors tors in everything, complained and kept saying things like, ?when I was a firearms instructor for in the military we did it this way, etc.?. My other buddy and I just kept distancing ourselves from them on the firing line as the class progressed. Funny thing, those two know-it-alls (husband and wife) came in dead last on the skills text. My other buddy, also former military didn?t say a word about his background, was receptive and floored what they were teaching and was open-minded to the instruction and shot Graduate on the skills text.

[TeamAllen]

Headed out tomorrow for our first class since the change. One Practical Rifle Skill builder coming up. I'm excited to have some fun. Thanks for the updates above. It helped me be prepared for the changes.

[Mezcalfud]

I'm headed out for the 2 day intermediate pistol. Enjoy the rifle- I enjoyed it a lot. It's a good shakedown of your rifle and unless things changed, bring more ammo!

[TeamAllen]

Taking 1,000 rounds and a pile of magazines.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Apologies for not following up on the last two days of the handgun class and the 4-day rifle.

Lots of steel on the last two days and refinement of technique. Did a "clocking" exercise to dial in grip and presentation and just fine-tuned everything while engaging multiple targets and multiple shots.

Overall was great with a lot of rounds fired. As usually instructors were fantastic.

A few things I did while I was in class (went with an open mind and rolled with it) were diagnosing and doing everything in the "workspace". I have taken 2-man Tactics classes and in some of the shooting positions you'd be muzzling your partner, but I can see the advantages if you're solo, shooting in a competition, etc. One thing though, as class went on students would get a bit lazy with their workspace position and the firearm started coming down quite a bit.

I am also not completely sold on the new grip and arm position. They want wrists locked out and elbow bent considerably. Only comparison I have is to the way Frank Proctor shots, as it seems very similar to his grip and arms, but with the arms bent even a little more than what he does. PF says it manages recoil better and allows the sights back on target quicker if executed correctly. Also, most of the instructors were using red dots now, at least in the class I was in. Two of the 6 instructors we had over the 4 days were using irons, and one of them only using irons because his red dot recently broke.

The rifle class was fantastic. Day 1 is a slow burn because the first half of the day you don't shoot at all and is just learning how to run and manipulate the rifle, how to properly index and grab magazines off your belt, proper indexing, how to correctly insert, how to perform tactical reloads, emergency reloads, etc. Second half of the day was spent zeroing from 50 yards. Fire three shot groups, check and make appropriate adjustments. Took me three iterations and then a fourth to confirm. Other guys weren't even hitting paper at 50 yards and they took a bit longer to zero, but they made sure everyone was zeroed.

After day 1 the majority of the class was up close, but we also did shoot out to 200 yards as well. was pretty fun hitting steel at 200 yards with just a red dot. Others had red dots with magnification, others had LPVO's. I was just fine with a red dot. We ran different drills and exercises, learned compensation for shooting up close, multiples, shot more steel, etc. Also shot through the V-tac wall, did some timed drills and exercises and shot out to 100 & 200 yards some more.

Those that were there for 2 days only seemed a bit bummed, especially since Day 1 was just manipulations and zeroing for the most part, and the real fun started day 3 and continued into day 4.

As someone who has never shot their AR before this was a fantastic class and feel very comfortable and confident running my rifle. Lots of shooting, lots of manipulations, shooting from different distances in different positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone). I was the only one who had a shooting mat and used it for the 200 yard prone shots, but it wasn't absolutely necessary to bring, but if it was wet, muddy, etc., it would for sure be nice to have. I was ringing the gong from 200 yards easily from a seated position at 200 yards as well (carry-over from what I learned in the Appleseed class I took last year).

Also was a great way to learn about your particular rifle, what works, what doesn't, your optic(s), etc. I went with a very simply set up. Springfield Saint Victor with a Holosun 510C. I even removed the BUIS to make things simple, no other crap attached or bolted onto it aside from a QD on the hand guard to attach my Vickers sling. No hand stops, additional junk, etc. Only thing I did when I got home was order a riser from Unity for the 510C because they are teaching you to keep your head up/vertical and not dropping your head to the rifle. Canting the rifle helped a but, but I'm tall and the riser was just the ticket to get my head in the proper position.

Time will tell if I head back out when factoring in price ($250'day now compared to the $100/day I paid) combined with a yearly membership on top of travel costs and lodging. I've already taken another class last weekend closer to home. that's $225/day for a 2-day class and got a reasonable hotel so I didn't' have to drive the two hours back and forth. Also didn't have to take time off from work and factor in travel days, etc.

The big takeaway from all of this, especially with the handgun courses is there is no set in stone way of doing things. In the three years I've been shooting I have experimented with three differnt grips/stances. Started out with modified weaver (old FS way), Isosceles, and this new sort of modified Isosceles that PF is now teaching with the locked wrists and noticeably bent elbows. These days I tend to shoot with my feet in more of a natural fighting stance with my hips square to the target and arms out in front, but not locked out, but not dramatically bent as well. Just seems to work for me and what my stance has involved into. Also, the isometric tension that FS used to teach is gone (I hated that) and now teach more side to side pressure/grip. I much prefer this, but again, it's all about finding what works for you and there are examples of people who can shoot better than most of use using any of the several grips and stances mentioned here.

[Citizen_B]

I also don’t agree with their suggestion to bend the arms considerably. I don’t lock my arms out all the way but it’s much closer to that position than the amount of bend they want you to have. As has also been the case with FS, once instructors see me shooting, details of my style are largely left alone.

[XDJYo]

Vinnie and Citizen-When you say arms bent, are you talking outward like a chicken wing or bent down?

Thx!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by XDJYo

Vinnie and Citizen-When you say arms bent, are you talking outward like a chicken wing or bent down?

Thx!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not chicken wing. Elbows remain down with elbows bent and wrists locked out forward.

[CheapBloke]

Chicken Winging on a Pistol seems unlikely and very uncomfortable way to hold your pistol. Unless you are running the Center Axis Relock shooting method or bringing your pistol as close to your Eye or body.

Doesn't the term Chicken Wing mostly apply to Rifle shooters?

[acegunnr]

The trigger reset is also gone. They want you completely break contact with the trigger and then come back to take the slack out. The thinking is that this is faster and you can manipulate any trigger on any gun without having to know where its reset point is. You still need to learn how much slack to take out on any gun you shoot. This was really hard to adjust to if you have practiced staying on your trigger to the reset.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by acegunnr

The trigger reset is also gone. They want you completely break contact with the trigger and then come back to take the slack out. The thinking is that this is faster and you can manipulate any trigger on any gun without having to know where its reset point is. You still need to learn how much slack to take out on any gun you shoot. This was really hard to adjust to if you have practiced staying on your trigger to the reset.

I mentioned this in my posts above. Makes sense to me. The gun can reset the trigger faster than you can manually.

Bunch of guys in my class were groaning and griping about this about this. Took a day or so to break the old habit of trapping and resetting the trigger. This is one thing I will be incorporating into my own practice.

Was funny though, if you paid attention during the exercises you could still hear the audible "click" of the triggers resting of the students who just wouldn't try it.

One student spoke up and said you simply cannot shoot multiple shots accurately resetting the trigger this way. The instructor loaded a mag into his gun and fired off about 7 shots and had about a quarter-size grouping.

[XDJYo]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Not chicken wing. Elbows remain down with elbows bent and wrists locked out forward.

Originally Posted by CheapBloke

Chicken Winging on a Pistol seems unlikely and very uncomfortable way to hold your pistol. Unless you are running the Center Axis Relock shooting method or bringing your pistol as close to your Eye or body.

Doesn't the term Chicken Wing mostly apply to Rifle shooters?

Thanks! Yes, I agree that the chicken wing is mostly associated with rifle shooters. I had seen a few YT videos from competition shooters talking about locking the wrists and bending the elbows (out?) along with the thumbs forward grip.

So, just wanted to clarify how and how much.

Thanks!!!

[NorthBay Shooter]

Originally Posted by acegunnr

The trigger reset is also gone. They want you completely break contact with the trigger and then come back to take the slack out. The thinking is that this is faster and you can manipulate any trigger on any gun without having to know where its reset point is. You still need to learn how much slack to take out on any gun you shoot. This was really hard to adjust to if you have practiced staying on your trigger to the reset.

Having spent last weekend with some of the masters of trigger control, JJ and Doug Koenig, the key is to come off the trigger after the shot and immediately back on the trigger all the way to the wall. Then when you press for the next shot there is no slack to take out. It is really super hard to do and will take me, a ton of practice. I figure something like 5 to 7k rounds just to get the hang of it. I never did the FS trap trigger, I always came off and then pressed back. The difference in this is going directly back to the wall. I watched them both do super fast splits, sub .25's shooting fist sized groups at 30 plus yards.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter

Having spent last weekend with some of the masters of trigger control, JJ and Doug Koenig, the key is to come off the trigger after the shot and immediately back on the trigger all the way to the wall. Then when you press for the next shot there is no slack to take out. It is really super hard to do and will take me, a ton of practice. I figure something like 5 to 7k rounds just to get the hang of it. I never did the FS trap trigger, I always came off and then pressed back. The difference in this is going directly back to the wall. I watched them both do super fast splits, sub .25's shooting fist sized groups at 30 plus yards.

5-7k rounds to get used to this way of letting off the trigger immediately and getting back on it is a bit much. Just do a lot of dry practice. It took me maybe two days in class to get over it, then the next weekend took a class with a different school that still traps the trigger so I regressed pretty quickly. But if you just dry practice and engrain it into your brain it will happen faster than you think.

[rodralig]

Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter

Having spent last weekend with some of the masters of trigger control, JJ and Doug Koenig, the key is to come off the trigger after the shot and immediately back on the trigger all the way to the wall. Then when you press for the next shot there is no slack to take out.

Awesome!!! Welcome back!!! How was the experience? Do you have any seat referrals so I could probably plan out 2024?


Yeah, that said - for others' reference, here is how JJ has been teaching it in his classes... He also has a video somewhere on how to train for this dry. I would recall under Tactical Hyve channel.



Take care!!!

_

[acegunnr]

The trigger technique explained by JJ above is exactly what FS used to teach. However, for new or beginner students, who fly off their triggers after each and every shot, we introduce the concept of "trapping the trigger to the rear". Once the student is able to trap the trigger and go to reset after each and every shot, we then tell them to take off the "training wheels" which is "trapping the trigger", and go to reset immediately after the trigger press.

So what started out as "Press, Trap, Reset", now goes to "Press-Reset", as quickly as possible. Just like JJ is demonstrating.

[HKAllTheThings]

Watch Ben Stoeger's trigger pull on this post. IMO, this is the correct way to train in dry fire.

Not only does it avoid trigger freeze, this also accurately mirrors what happens during a real gunfight. Dudes will pull the trigger as fast as possible without riding the reset, at least in my experience.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cow_yh8Du6i/

[rodralig]

Originally Posted by acegunnr

The trigger technique explained by JJ above is exactly what FS used to teach. However, for new or beginner students, who fly off their triggers after each and every shot, we introduce the concept of "trapping the trigger to the rear". Once the student is able to trap the trigger and go to reset after each and every shot, we then tell them to take off the "training wheels" which is "trapping the trigger", and go to reset immediately after the trigger press.

Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings

Watch Ben Stoeger's trigger pull on this post. IMO, this is the correct way to train in dry fire.

Not only does it avoid trigger freeze, this also accurately mirrors what happens during a real gunfight. Dudes will pull the trigger as fast as possible without riding the reset, at least in my experience.

Just a clarification on JJ's video - he is not saying to ride the reset. He is not saying to minimize the trigger moving out to the reset point. He is saying to complete the reset, no matter how, ie., you ride the trigger or you completely let go (like Ben, Bob or Rob), during the recoil such that when the sights have come back to an acceptable picture/alignment, you can fire the gun. Looking at the video more closely, you can actually see his finger ahead and leaving the trigger but immediately comes back. It is so refined that it is easy to miss...

JJ observes each and every student for each drill, while students take turns to also observe others - many of us completely take our fingers off the trigger but are already at the reset point when the sights are in alignment. For "attack" shots, JJ parlance, which is about 10~ yards in, don't even pause at the reset; simply continue the pull and break. For longer and/or more precise shots, there is a slight pause at reset to verify alignment before proceeding with the shot.

He also taught us how to practice this dry. To illustrate with a transition drill - target aimed in, at the beep, transition to another target and break the shot. The modification for this drill would be is that upon reaching the next target is NOT to completely break the shot but pull the trigger up to the wall (slightly before the sear breaks), then immediately release (shooter's choice) and go back to the wall, signaling a readiness for taking the second shot.

YMMV.

_

[HKAllTheThings]

Yes, I think a slight pause at the reset point to verify alignment makes sense when you have a longer shot.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings

Yes, I think a slight pause at the reset point to verify alignment makes sense when you have a longer shot.

The technique is not used for longer, precision shots.

[NorthBay Shooter]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

5-7k rounds to get used to this way of letting off the trigger immediately and getting back on it is a bit much. Just do a lot of dry practice. It took me maybe two days in class to get over it, then the next weekend took a class with a different school that still traps the trigger so I regressed pretty quickly. But if you just dry practice and engrain it into your brain it will happen faster than you think.

Vinnie, you can't really do this in dry fire. You need the recoil to really get the feel for it. I was already fine in dry fire, this is a whole new level of trigger control. I have a DA/SA gun. In DA, I can go all the way to the wall every time. No issue. It's the SA after the first round to pull through the trigger all the way to the wall and stop.

I already to the shot drill in dry fire. This is when you have your finger on the trigger and break the shoot at the beep. The goal is for the timer to not pick up the shot. Meaning your shot broke during the beep.

[NorthBay Shooter]

Originally Posted by rodralig

Awesome!!! Welcome back!!! How was the experience? Do you have any seat referrals so I could probably plan out 2024

_

Rodralig,
it was crazy good. As you know a total of 24 students. 3 days. Max, JJ and Doug. The students are broken into 3 groups of 8. Mostly based on perceived skill sets (previous experience, USPSA class, etc.). The groups are rotated to different bays where the instructors are located. JJ taught two bays. His core stuff on trigger control /transitions / attack & control targets, and stage strategy / movement. Max taught positioning, transitions and movement. Doug taught grip and trigger control for accuracy with speed.

I spent all of day 1 with JJ doing his two blocks back to back. That was a big benefit, since I could put into practice his stuff on a sample stage right away.
Day 2 was split between Max and Doug. Day 3 was a match to demonstrate and put it all together. Each instructor took a squad and helped with strategy and real time feedback. I squadded with Max. That alone was worth the money. To run a stage with a multi national and world champ. To hear his thought process and ask questions, was crazy. Then he would watch your run and provide feedback right after.

Non shooting stuff was the welcome dinner/social prior to day 1. A social event the night of day 1 at Top Golf. And a thank you dinner day 3.

Tons of swag (about 1k), tons of give aways including 13 guns.

I will try and write up more detail when I have some time.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter

Vinnie, you can't really do this in dry fire. You need the recoil to really get the feel for it. I was already fine in dry fire, this is a whole new level of trigger control. I have a DA/SA gun. In DA, I can go all the way to the wall every time. No issue. It's the SA after the first round to pull through the trigger all the way to the wall and stop.

I already to the shot drill in dry fire. This is when you have your finger on the trigger and break the shoot at the beep. The goal is for the timer to not pick up the shot. Meaning your shot broke during the beep.

You can mimic it (sure, it won't be 100% obviously) it in dry practice. You're essentially retraining your brain to do something. Just like people train their brains in dry fire to pin the trigger to the rear then reset, all you need to do is stop pinning the trigger and get right back on it for your next shot.

Not sure though where you get this arbitrary 5-7k round count from of live fire to get this new technique engrained. I shot way less than that in a 4 day class and by the end had it down, and it took more like 1 day to make the transition.

[NorthBay Shooter]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

You can mimic it (sure, it won't be 100% obviously) it in dry practice. You're essentially retraining your brain to do something. Just like people train their brains in dry fire to pin the trigger to the rear then reset, all you need to do is stop pinning the trigger and get right back on it for your next shot.

Not sure though where you get this arbitrary 5-7k round count from of live fire to get this new technique engrained. I shot way less than that in a 4 day class and by the end had it down, and it took more like 1 day to make the transition.

my number is my guess at what it takes to get this down. If you can do it in 4 days, than you are better than me. I shot 1500 rounds when I was trying it and got it right about 10% of the times and perfect maybe 20.

here is the GOAT doing exactly what we are talking about in dryfire. Not easy.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oQasHE8vLR4

[Mezcalfud]

I just got back from a 2 day pistol class that was a "skill builder" but more of a mix of fundamentals and development (new class descriptors). Like the rifle class in Feb, it was a positive experience however I did struggle with wanting to trap the trigger or go the opposite and slap it. I also found the arm position to be advantageous but when we were doing timed drills, the minute I heard that buzzer, I apparently shot my arms out. Old habits are hard to break.

Matt, Shane and Aaron were great and added some humor to the class. The sun was punishing but it wasn't too hot.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by Mezcalfud

I just got back from a 2 day pistol class that was a "skill builder" but more of a mix of fundamentals and development (new class descriptors). Like the rifle class in Feb, it was a positive experience however I did struggle with wanting to trap the trigger or go the opposite and slap it. I also found the arm position to be advantageous but when we were doing timed drills, the minute I heard that buzzer, I apparently shot my arms out. Old habits are hard to break.

Matt, Shane and Aaron were great and added some humor to the class. The sun was punishing but it wasn't too hot.

I agree, the new trigger reset technique is way easier to learn than the new arm position. I definitely found myself resorting to old habits with arm position, but had no problem with the the new trigger technique. Probably because I was already doing something similar when shooting multiples and really never understood why you trap the trigger and reset it manually because it is so slow. I still train at another school that also wants you to trap the trigger and do a manual reset. I jsut go through the motions when they are teaching it and revert to the new way when we're in drills.

[mej16489]

FS Curriculum only taught trigger trapping at introductory classes. IIRC, the initial vague attempt to 'correct' that was in 4 day handgun in the multiple targets module. In the later years they even semi-addressed it in the discussions of 'acquire your next sight picture and prep the trigger to shoot again' as a follow-through. But they didn't ever explicitly address it 1 on 1 if shooter continued to trap the trigger.

Any class beyond the intro classes instructors would look to reinforce not trapping the trigger.

[Jetjock]

Does anyone know what the turnout for classes is now that PF has taken over? In the past years when I took classes, there were usually several hundred members there every day. Now that they are initiating expensive new yearly membership fees and class fees, they will not need anywhere near the 200,000 + members like FS however although I hope they succeed, I have very serious doubts about their viability until their true long term business model is fully disclosed.

[Citizen_B]

I went when ownership changed hands to PF in Feb and they were running the modified-FS courses. Attendance was way down from past years, and that was at the $50/person/day rate. At the $250/person/day rate I can only imagine what attendance looks like now. Most of the people in my PF class were FS members going for the last time and to see how PF runs things. I suspect PF will have a little bump in attendance from curious FS members at first, then fade hard to a new demographic.

[dad4mnc]

Originally Posted by Jetjock

Does anyone know what the turnout for classes is now that PF has taken over? In the past years when I took classes, there were usually several hundred members there every day. Now that they are initiating expensive new yearly membership fees and class fees, they will not need anywhere near the 200,000 + members like FS however although I hope they succeed, I have very serious doubts about their viability until their true long term business model is fully disclosed.

It would be interesting to know their break even on attendance with the new fees. I'm guessing it will take a few years for a complete student attendance make over. Maybe they angle for hosting major shooting events, etc. That would give them a lot of exposure.

[outofstateboomerfudd]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

II still train at another school that also wants you to trap the trigger and do a manual reset

I can't believe there's still people out there teaching pinning the trigger. Or people continuing to train with them.