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Blades, Bows and Tools Discussion of non-firearm weapons and camping/survival tools.

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  #1  
Old 11-20-2018, 12:22 PM
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Default Downward "flick of the wrist" folders opening legal? (with closure bias)

Noticing some popular folding knives intended to open with thumb assist also open with a strong swift downward flick of the wrist without needed to touch the blade. It surprised me I could do this, did not expect it.
My Kershaw Blur with assist does this and a new Cold Steel Recon 1 does it too but no assist on that one. Both of them do have positive bias to closure.
The ol Buck 110 will not flick open no matter how hard I try.

Worried this would not be legal if one is able to flip open like that without touching the blade. You have to do it with authority but it's still easy to do
with little practice.
Worried now that these two knives are not good for EDC?
Once can tighten the screws but now not so easy to open with the thumb assist.
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Last edited by CessnaDriver; 11-20-2018 at 4:13 PM..
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2018, 12:51 PM
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My EDC is a Cold Steel Recon 1. I cannot flick open the blade without using the thumb assist. EDIT: I just tried harder and was able to flick it open without the thumb assist.

I would also pay attention to where you're carrying it.

My knife is legal in San Diego, but as I understand it because the blade is longer than 3" this would not be legal for clip carry in L.A.. Although, the law as I read it means I can legally carry a longer than 3" bladed knife concealed, i.e. no pocket clip showing.

Whenever I'm in L.A. I just leave my knife in my car.

https://knifeup.com/los-angeles-california-knife-laws/

EDIT: I'm not a fan of assisted open knives. Carried a SOG Trident for years. Had it deploy in my pants a few times -- luckily didn't get cut in my junk or otherwise. Also, I don't like dealing with the safety if equipped. Always tends to be on when I need the knife ASAP.
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Last edited by Stanze; 11-20-2018 at 12:55 PM..
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2018, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanze View Post
My EDC is a Cold Steel Recon 1. I cannot flick open the blade without using the thumb assist. EDIT: I just tried harder and was able to flick it open without the thumb assist.

I would also pay attention to where you're carrying it.

My knife is legal in San Diego, but as I understand it because the blade is longer than 3" this would not be legal for clip carry in L.A.. Although, the law as I read it means I can legally carry a longer than 3" bladed knife concealed, i.e. no pocket clip showing.

Whenever I'm in L.A. I just leave my knife in my car.

https://knifeup.com/los-angeles-california-knife-laws/

In San Diego as well so same laws for me local carry.
Not sure why my Recon 1 does it then. A good downward and and then flick open does it. I can tighten the screw but I would expect it to loosen up again, maybe blue loctite, Finding the sweet spot an expecting it to stay like that is probably not a solution.
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Old 11-20-2018, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanze View Post
EDIT: I just tried harder and was able to flick it open without the thumb assist.
Ok it's not just me then.
I think there might be a lot of folks walking around with this issue and not know it.

My Blur I was able to tighten and it's more of a pain to use the thumb stud but it wont flick open. The Recon is similar. I think it's something you would have to keep checking over time that it's not loosening up again.
I may be looking at some other EDC knife at this point. Bummer.
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Old 11-20-2018, 2:43 PM
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As long as the blade has a 'bias towards closure', it's not a 'gravity knife'. What law are you worried about breaking?
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Old 11-20-2018, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
As long as the blade has a 'bias towards closure', it's not a 'gravity knife'. What law are you worried about breaking?
Ok that's where I'm ignorant and confused.
I thought a knife that "flicks" open was illegal regardless of positive bias for closure.
If positive bias is the key here, that makes sense....
My buddy has a mess of folders and he said he can get most of them to flick open. Though it's hard on his arm for some.


EDIT
If I tighten these knives such that you can't flick them open, the positive bias for closure goes away.
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Last edited by CessnaDriver; 11-20-2018 at 3:50 PM..
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2018, 3:51 PM
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If you can "flick" it open, I'd say it's a gravity knife, because there is no "bias" towards closure.

We avoid prosecution under the switchblade / gravity laws with having to touch the blade/thumb stud in order to overcome the spring tension keeping it closed. Unless we touch it (the blade), it won't open because the spring keeps it closed.

If it'll open without touching the blade, you've got a gravity knife IMHO and take the risk of getting cited for the misdemeanor.
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Old 11-20-2018, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
If you can "flick" it open, I'd say it's a gravity knife, because there is no "bias" towards closure.

We avoid prosecution under the switchblade / gravity laws with having to touch the blade/thumb stud in order to overcome the spring tension keeping it closed. Unless we touch it (the blade), it won't open because the spring keeps it closed.

If it'll open without touching the blade, you've got a gravity knife IMHO and take the risk of getting cited for the misdemeanor.
Gravity knives like balisongs are only a misdemeanor?
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Old 11-20-2018, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
If you can "flick" it open, I'd say it's a gravity knife, because there is no "bias" towards closure.

We avoid prosecution under the switchblade / gravity laws with having to touch the blade/thumb stud in order to overcome the spring tension keeping it closed. Unless we touch it (the blade), it won't open because the spring keeps it closed.

If it'll open without touching the blade, you've got a gravity knife IMHO and take the risk of getting cited for the misdemeanor.
So we have some common folders here that have positive bias and thumb studs, nobody seems to consider them gravity knives by any stretch, but if done aggressive enough, can none the less be flipped open without touching the blade. That positive bias can be overcome with enough effort, surely there is some consideration that no knife is going to be able to remain closed if enough G forces are put into it.
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2018, 6:05 AM
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California Penal Code section 17235:
“switchblade knife” means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. “Switchblade knife” does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
Also read In re Gilbert T. (2012) 211 Cal.App.4th 514, In re Angel R. (2008) 163 Cal.App.4th 905, and In re Luke W. (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 650.

In re Angel R. specifically addresses a knife that opens if "held upside down with the blade facing the floor and you just drop your hand."
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Old 11-21-2018, 8:53 AM
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Before the thumb stud and thumb hole knives became so popular and easy to find, I would just grab the blade of my pocket knives and flick the handle down. The handle always landed right into my palm -- a little high but serviceable.

I also recall seeing my uncle hold his folding hunting knife in his palm, reach his fingers around the handle to open the blade just a tiny bit and then drag the point across his pant leg to open it the rest of the way. Not the best method for safety or in board shorts but fine in blue jeans.

Features aside, there's almost always a workable method for one-handed open. Just stay away from something that looks menacing, tacti-cool or or otherwise meant for people and you should be fine. Most police officers don't know the intricate details of exactly what is legal or not legal. Stick with commonly used and commonly carried items and you're not going to get any trouble unless you're out looking for it.
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Old 11-21-2018, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
If you can "flick" it open, I'd say it's a gravity knife, because there is no "bias" towards closure.

We avoid prosecution under the switchblade / gravity laws with having to touch the blade/thumb stud in order to overcome the spring tension keeping it closed. Unless we touch it (the blade), it won't open because the spring keeps it closed.

If it'll open without touching the blade, you've got a gravity knife IMHO and take the risk of getting cited for the misdemeanor.
You are doing the decision making in the wrong order. The fact that there is a bias towards closure (or detent or resistance which must be overcome) means that flicking is irrelevant.
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2018, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
You are doing the decision making in the wrong order. The fact that there is a bias towards closure (or detent or resistance which must be overcome) means that flicking is irrelevant.
From what else I'm reading, the bias for closure, thumb stud, those things make it defendable in court as long as it was not modified in some way to open easier without touching the blade.

And again, these laws are so idiotic and non-sensical.
Where have we seen that before?
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Before the thumb stud and thumb hole knives became so popular and easy to find, I would just grab the blade of my pocket knives and flick the handle down. The handle always landed right into my palm -- a little high but serviceable.

I also recall seeing my uncle hold his folding hunting knife in his palm, reach his fingers around the handle to open the blade just a tiny bit and then drag the point across his pant leg to open it the rest of the way. Not the best method for safety or in board shorts but fine in blue jeans.

Features aside, there's almost always a workable method for one-handed open. Just stay away from something that looks menacing, tacti-cool or or otherwise meant for people and you should be fine. Most police officers don't know the intricate details of exactly what is legal or not legal. Stick with commonly used and commonly carried items and you're not going to get any trouble unless you're out looking for it.
What are you thoughts on EDC a Cold Steel Recon 1? This is about as large of a folder knife one would want to carry but I am in love with how it locks up so strong and the handle has aggressive finger grooves for doing heavy work and fits my larger hand really well. Has all the legal criteria and is not even assisted opening.Too scary? I don't know how common it is. Otherwise perhaps I stick with the Kershaw Blur, pretty common there.
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Old 11-25-2018, 6:47 PM
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Black knives matter
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:01 AM
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Ok, I'm calling this too tacticool to carry...



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Old 12-06-2018, 11:14 AM
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There are very few knives that cannot be opened via inertia opening, which is what I think is meant as "flicking the wrist".
Granted, depending on the knife it can take a lot if practice - large, tip-heavy blades are easier than smaller ones with a center of mass closer to the pivot - but those knives are legal, since you can't simply push a button and release the blade. You have to put energy into the mechanism to bring the blade out.
This means knives like the Cold Steel Recon, the Spyderco Delica/Endura, or the Benchmade Griptilian etc. are unproblematic.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:17 AM
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Added: legal knife size varies by municipality: Orange County doesn't care... you're good to go carrying a voyager 2XL with a 6" blade... in LA County however, you are limited to 3" or less.
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