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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #1  
Old 07-21-2021, 4:13 AM
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Default The Delta Variant Is The Vaccine: It Is Time To Wake Up

https://www.redpillpodcasts.com/post...ime-to-wake-up


HMS Queen Elizabeth, a British Naval Vessel had their crew 1600 crew members fully vaccinated. They all received double vaccinations. They followed social distancing protocols along with increased hygiene. Two months after receiving the vaccine there was a 1 in 16 infection rate of COVID, that is a higher rate than any country on this planet! (Ref. 6)
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2021, 4:34 AM
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Wouldn't doubt it
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Old 07-21-2021, 4:57 AM
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Default There’s yet another COVID strain spreading. The Lambda variant.

https://fortune.com/2021/07/06/covid...w-coronavirus/
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2021, 5:28 AM
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That's because the vaccine only provides 95% coverage against _severe_ cases (ie. when you're about to go on a vent....) For the rest, not much.

It's like of like a mixed drink. Yes the alcohol in there is 100 proof but it's diluted down to something else.
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Old 07-21-2021, 5:30 AM
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Old 07-21-2021, 6:07 AM
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So, the link is saying the delta variant is actually a side effect of the mRNA concoctions that people are injecting?

I didn’t click the link; Asking for a friend.
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Old 07-21-2021, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirtlaw View Post
You know what’s freaking amazing… even with hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars at their disposal, it took WHO and CDC over a year to decide if the virus can remain viable on surfaces, 18 months later and they can’t make up their minds if masks work or not.

~ But~

Inside of 9 months developed an “effective and safe” vaccine concoction for the COVID virus but 40 years later and they don’t have a vaccine for AIDS/GRID virus. Whiskey tango foxtrot over.

Everything about this stinks like last week’s fish.
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  #8  
Old 07-21-2021, 6:19 AM
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Old 07-21-2021, 6:24 AM
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Old 07-21-2021, 6:27 AM
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https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/sta...09910256046092

Alex Berenson
@AlexBerenson
·
2h
1/ URGENT.

@CDCgov
has quietly more than DOUBLED the number of #Covid vaccine death reports in VAERS, the federal side effect reporting system.

CDC now says it has received reports of 12,313 deaths following Covid vaccination in the US - compared to under 6,000 last week.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2021, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/sta...09910256046092

Alex Berenson
@AlexBerenson
·
2h
1/ URGENT.

@CDCgov
has quietly more than DOUBLED the number of #Covid vaccine death reports in VAERS, the federal side effect reporting system.

CDC now says it has received reports of 12,313 deaths following Covid vaccination in the US - compared to under 6,000 last week.
And inconvenient truth
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2021, 7:34 AM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
You know what’s freaking amazing… even with hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars at their disposal, it took WHO and CDC over a year to decide if the virus can remain viable on surfaces, 18 months later and they can’t make up their minds if masks work or not.

~ But~

Inside of 9 months developed an “effective and safe” vaccine concoction for the COVID virus but 40 years later and they don’t have a vaccine for AIDS/GRID virus. Whiskey tango foxtrot over.

Everything about this stinks like last week’s fish.
SO.... you're argument is "well if they haven't found vaccines to other diseases.... there's no way they could have found a safe and effective vaccine agains Covid"? I suppose in your world all diseases must be curred or prevented in order of arrival? Not much of a scientific or logical argument. I suppose NO disease will ever be properly handled unless and until we defeat the common cold?
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  #13  
Old 07-21-2021, 8:12 AM
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"The Delta Variant Is The Vaccine: It Is Time To Wake Up"

I pointed this out here about a month ago.

It is the normal course of viral evolution. At the end of an epidemic, the virus mutates into a less virulent yet more contagious form. The remaining suspectable people get it. They don't die. Herd immunity is achieved.

We are seeing this right now. Delta cases are going up, deaths are going down.

Hysteria is being cultivated and promoted for political purposes.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2021, 9:10 AM
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SO.... you're argument is "well if they haven't found vaccines to other diseases.... there's no way they could have found a safe and effective vaccine agains Covid"? I suppose in your world all diseases must be curred or prevented in order of arrival? Not much of a scientific or logical argument. I suppose NO disease will ever be properly handled unless and until we defeat the common cold?
It's not an argument.

It's common sense.
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2021, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Scota4570 View Post
"The Delta Variant Is The Vaccine: It Is Time To Wake Up"



We are seeing this right now. Delta cases are going up, deaths are going down.
But is that the virus or the vaccine. I'm not seeing evidence that the variant itself is less deadly.
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  #16  
Old 07-21-2021, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Scota4570 View Post
"The Delta Variant Is The Vaccine: It Is Time To Wake Up"

I pointed this out here about a month ago.

It is the normal course of viral evolution. At the end of an epidemic, the virus mutates into a less virulent yet more contagious form. The remaining suspectable people get it. They don't die. Herd immunity is achieved.

We are seeing this right now. Delta cases are going up, deaths are going down.

Hysteria is being cultivated and promoted for political purposes.
The only flaw in that argument is that there is no evidence the "Delta Variant" is less dangerous.

The apparent lower death rate is artifactual. Once you correct for vaccination and for the segments of populations being impacted this round (viz., fewer old folks), the difference disappears.

Over time, endemic diseases tend toward higher communicability and lower mortality, but not necessarily, and this is always modulated by changes in our behavior. Do not assume SARS-CoV-2 has suddenly become harmless without evidence.
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2021, 10:26 AM
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  #18  
Old 07-21-2021, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
It says "We're going to be hearing about it alot"

I think he meant to say "This information will be suppressed by the MSM, the CDC, the NIH, the FDA..."
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2021, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
To add regarding Antibody-Dependent-Enhancement:

Quote:
Is ADE caused by a disease?
Most diseases do not cause ADE, but one of the best studied examples of a pathogen that can cause ADE is dengue virus. Dengue virus is one of the most common infections in the world, infecting hundreds of millions and killing tens of thousands of people each year. Unlike viruses like measles or mumps that only have one type, dengue virus has four different forms, called “serotypes.” These serotypes are very similar, but slight differences among them set the stage for ADE.

If a person is infected by one serotype of dengue virus, they typically have mild disease and generate a protective immune response, including neutralizing antibodies, against that serotype. But, if that person is infected with a second serotype of dengue virus, the neutralizing antibodies generated from the first infection may bind to the virus and actually increase the virus’s ability to enter cells, resulting in ADE and causing a severe form of the disease, called dengue hemorrhagic fever.

Is ADE caused by vaccines?
On a few occasions ADE has resulted from vaccination:

Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) — RSV is a virus that commonly causes pneumonia in children. A vaccine was made by growing RSV, purifying it, and inactivating it with the chemical formaldehyde. In clinical trials, children who were given the vaccine were more likely to develop or die from pneumonia after infection with RSV. As a result of this finding, the vaccine trials stopped, and the vaccine was never submitted for approval or released to the public.

Measles — An early version of measles vaccine was made by inactivating measles virus using formaldehyde. Children who were vaccinated and later became infected with measles in the community developed high fevers, unusual rash, and an atypical form of pneumonia. Upon seeing these results, the vaccine was withdrawn from use, and those who received this version of the vaccine were recommended to be vaccinated again using the live, weakened measles vaccine, which does not cause ADE and is still in use today.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-program...t-and-vaccines
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  #20  
Old 07-21-2021, 1:29 PM
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The only flaw in that argument is that there is no evidence the "Delta Variant" is less dangerous.

The apparent lower death rate is artifactual. Once you correct for vaccination and for the segments of populations being impacted this round (viz., fewer old folks), the difference disappears.

Over time, endemic diseases tend toward higher communicability and lower mortality, but not necessarily, and this is always modulated by changes in our behavior. Do not assume SARS-CoV-2 has suddenly become harmless without evidence.
can you cite data, everything i see is aggregated, no breakdown by age group, vaccination rate, hospitalization and death rate, co-morbidity etc.
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Old 07-21-2021, 1:53 PM
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39,000 working at the CDC and what have they earned for thier pay to show us?...

Well...
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:01 PM
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https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...viduals-video/

Sen. Ron Johnson: Data from Israel Shows 84% of New COVID Cases are with Vaccinated Individuals (VIDEO)
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  #23  
Old 07-21-2021, 2:02 PM
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can you cite data, everything i see is aggregated, no breakdown by age group, vaccination rate, hospitalization and death rate, co-morbidity etc.
It will take some legwork. "Delta" is too new for actual research papers to be out yet, all we have are rush analyses using normal surveillance.

The best dataset we have right now is from the UK, where Delta is dominant and statistics collection is fairly reliable. UK MoH Assessment suggests infection severity is comparable to earlier strains. In order to estimate this, the calculation goes as follows:
  • Current CFR in the UK is about 0.2% (see Page 11 here)
  • The Delta variant is dominant and basically describes an epoch starting in May to the present
  • About 50% 10% of those recently infected are over 50 years of age (page 13)
  • Vaccination rates are highly age dependent, with those over age 50 averaging to around 85%, and those under age 50 more like 20% (see here)
  • Vaccination appears to flatten mortality by about a factor of five; applying this gives us a net effect of about 0.03% mortality ages < 50 and 1.9% above age 50
  • Compare this to "Alpha" mortality rates (mostly unvaccinated, as it happened before vaccines were easily available) of 0.1% and 4.8% respectively -- but note that for Alpha, about 90% 70% of those infected were under age 50, not 50% 90%
  • An unknown confound is how much monoclonal antibody therapy is denting overall mortality -- this is around 75% effective at all ages but is not applied in a uniform fashion

So the net result is that mortality is way down among seniors, most of whom are vaccinated, but by a factor that compares well to (0.8 vaccine success * 0.85 vaccinated fraction). Among those under 50 the rates look lower but the statistics are really poor, since we're only talking about 26 deaths so far and that's a known undercount as the data lags.

Bottom line, it doesn't look like Delta is deadlier but it doesn't look safer either for unprotected individuals. It does look more contagious, but I remain convinced this has more to do with behavior than the native performance of the virus. There may be differences, but it'll take time to sort it out as the differences appear to be small.

ERRATA: Misread Page 13 percentage of those over 50 infected. Corrections included. Conclusion was already rate-corrected so this did not appear in the answer.
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
The only flaw in that argument is that there is no evidence the "Delta Variant" is less dangerous.

The apparent lower death rate is artifactual. Once you correct for vaccination and for the segments of populations being impacted this round (viz., fewer old folks), the difference disappears.

Over time, endemic diseases tend toward higher communicability and lower mortality, but not necessarily, and this is always modulated by changes in our behavior. Do not assume SARS-CoV-2 has suddenly become harmless without evidence.
Link to those stats you're referencing?
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:04 PM
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For me, this is ONE of the factors in my hesitancy. I'm not sure that it's a 'major' influence, but it is there. If nothing else it is particularly applicable to Fauci as the 'face' of this whole thing in that, nearly a year ago, I said he needed to be 'removed' as the spokesperson if for no other reason than he admitted to overtly lying to the public. Whether I 'agreed' with his 'rationale' or not, such removes the possibility of 'trust' for many.

With that said, how much of that as a factor is tied to the overall 'mishandling' of information this whole thing has experienced from the beginning vs. just the current Administration is something I cannot necessarily quantify. I will say that I was more... patient... with Trump's Administration in that they hadn't necessarily had time to properly investigate. However, Biden's tenure has been so full of... well... let's just say they have been so disingenuous that "Trust Us" comes across as more of an inside joke than an actual appeal.
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:04 PM
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So, the link is saying the delta variant is actually a side effect of the mRNA concoctions that people are injecting?

I didn’t click the link; Asking for a friend.
Actually it says no such thing. Just OP editorializing his fears. It totally amazes me what people will believe if it supports their bias.
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:11 PM
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  #28  
Old 07-21-2021, 2:16 PM
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With that said, how much of that as a factor is tied to the overall 'mishandling' of information this whole thing has experienced from the beginning vs. just the current Administration is something I cannot necessarily quantify. I will say that I was more... patient... with Trump's Administration in that they hadn't necessarily had time to properly investigate. However, Biden's tenure has been so full of... well... let's just say they have been so disingenuous that "Trust Us" comes across as more of an inside joke than an actual appeal.
A bit off-topic, but let's play. Everyone's reasons for vaccinating or not are their own. However, as much as I am in favor of our vaccines (Just Say No to Sinovac! ), I probably wouldn't have been without access to and comprehension of the raw research behind them. Our government response, Federal and State, has been a mess, and if all you have to go on is a sense of confidence, well... here we are.
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:19 PM
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A bit off-topic, but let's play. Everyone's reasons for vaccinating or not are their own. However, as much as I am in favor of our vaccines (Just Say No to Sinovac! ), I probably wouldn't have been without access to and comprehension of the raw research behind them. Our government response, Federal and State, has been a mess, and if all you have to go on is a sense of confidence, well... here we are.
Agreed.
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Old 07-21-2021, 2:55 PM
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Scota got it RIGHT. Disagree, helpeth thyself, whatever. Ya gotta keep the Bool Snit in motion folks. Too many getting back into REAL LIFE. Gotta put the brakes on again.

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  #31  
Old 07-21-2021, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
The only flaw in that argument is that there is no evidence the "Delta Variant" is less dangerous.

The apparent lower death rate is artifactual. Once you correct for vaccination and for the segments of populations being impacted this round (viz., fewer old folks), the difference disappears.

Over time, endemic diseases tend toward higher communicability and lower mortality, but not necessarily, and this is always modulated by changes in our behavior. Do not assume SARS-CoV-2 has suddenly become harmless without evidence.
Maybe.

From the beginning we have not been reporting death rates based on age. It has been a single number for the whole population, like 0.3% of those who get it die. The delta variant is much less deadly based on that metric.

It may be true that the most at risk persons have mostly died already. I have argued all along that we should be protecting the old and infirm but the rest of us should not worry about it. If we had done that it may have run it's course by now. For instance closing schools and businesses was insane.

If we had looked at it that way all along we would have considered covid 19 to be a big nothing burger for the majority of the population.

But we didn't, changing now is not a fair comparison. Delta is less deadly to the population overall.

Last edited by Scota4570; 07-21-2021 at 4:11 PM..
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Old 07-21-2021, 4:27 PM
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Actually it says no such thing. Just OP editorializing his fears. It totally amazes me what people will believe if it supports their bias.

You should see what they will believe when a terrible mistake about personal life expectancy may have been made and they need to support that bias.
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Old 07-21-2021, 7:26 PM
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Maybe.

From the beginning we have not been reporting death rates based on age. It has been a single number for the whole population, like 0.3% of those who get it die. The delta variant is much less deadly based on that metric.

It may be true that the most at risk persons have mostly died already. I have argued all along that we should be protecting the old and infirm but the rest of us should not worry about it. If we had done that it may have run it's course by now. For instance closing schools and businesses was insane.

If we had looked at it that way all along we would have considered covid 19 to be a big nothing burger for the majority of the population.

But we didn't, changing now is not a fair comparison. Delta is less deadly to the population overall.
Records of deaths by age have been available since the beginning, it just isn't normally reported that way. Big, big difference. For example, there is this, which is even an official government publication, to go along with numerous articles and independent studies.

What I said above is accurate, it just takes more effort to compute. As I noted above a proper accounting of the Delta variant suggests the risk to unprotected individuals is at best slightly less than the baseline strain. Delta is less deadly to the population overall, but that's mainly because over half of our population is now vaccinated.
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  #34  
Old 07-21-2021, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Actually it says no such thing. Just OP editorializing his fears. It totally amazes me what people will believe if it supports their bias.
What, exactly, are my fears?

I'm passing this along from a friend of mine who gets to decide if people wake up or not.

Seems like it's worth a look.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:51 AM
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It will take some legwork. "Delta" is too new for actual research papers to be out yet, all we have are rush analyses using normal surveillance.

The best dataset we have right now is from the UK, where Delta is dominant and statistics collection is fairly reliable. UK MoH Assessment suggests infection severity is comparable to earlier strains. In order to estimate this, the calculation goes as follows:
  • Current CFR in the UK is about 0.2% (see Page 11 here)
  • The Delta variant is dominant and basically describes an epoch starting in May to the present
  • About 50% 10% of those recently infected are over 50 years of age (page 13)
  • Vaccination rates are highly age dependent, with those over age 50 averaging to around 85%, and those under age 50 more like 20% (see here)
  • Vaccination appears to flatten mortality by about a factor of five; applying this gives us a net effect of about 0.03% mortality ages < 50 and 1.9% above age 50
  • Compare this to "Alpha" mortality rates (mostly unvaccinated, as it happened before vaccines were easily available) of 0.1% and 4.8% respectively -- but note that for Alpha, about 90% 70% of those infected were under age 50, not 50% 90%
  • An unknown confound is how much monoclonal antibody therapy is denting overall mortality -- this is around 75% effective at all ages but is not applied in a uniform fashion

So the net result is that mortality is way down among seniors, most of whom are vaccinated, but by a factor that compares well to (0.8 vaccine success * 0.85 vaccinated fraction). Among those under 50 the rates look lower but the statistics are really poor, since we're only talking about 26 deaths so far and that's a known undercount as the data lags.

Bottom line, it doesn't look like Delta is deadlier but it doesn't look safer either for unprotected individuals. It does look more contagious, but I remain convinced this has more to do with behavior than the native performance of the virus. There may be differences, but it'll take time to sort it out as the differences appear to be small.

ERRATA: Misread Page 13 percentage of those over 50 infected. Corrections included. Conclusion was already rate-corrected so this did not appear in the answer.
I don't think its community behaviour. There was an overlap in May where you could compare the Kent variant with Delta in an apples to apples context and during that period the Kent variant was basically holding steady while a few areas started to flare with the import of Delta. If they were similar and it was behaviour driven, you would have seen the entire country flare up together.

Here is a link to a map that I check roughly once a week. If you use the slider at the top you can see how the Delta variant begins to spread from Bolton which is northwest of Manchester.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deta...tive-map/cases
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2021, 1:05 AM
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stix213 stix213 is offline
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Originally Posted by TKM View Post
https://www.redpillpodcasts.com/post...ime-to-wake-up


HMS Queen Elizabeth, a British Naval Vessel had their crew 1600 crew members fully vaccinated. They all received double vaccinations. They followed social distancing protocols along with increased hygiene. Two months after receiving the vaccine there was a 1 in 16 infection rate of COVID, that is a higher rate than any country on this planet! (Ref. 6)
I don't believe social distancing is really possible on a navy ship, and they will face similar hygiene issues to something like a cruise line, where they are well known for spreading diseases extremely easily due to so many people all needing to move through and touch common areas, even if at any time they aren't necessarily in close proximity to that many other people.

But it is still interesting to see how ineffective the vaccine is as stopping the spread of the disease onboard.
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  #37  
Old 07-22-2021, 3:50 AM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
I don't believe social distancing is really possible on a navy ship, and they will face similar hygiene issues to something like a cruise line, where they are well known for spreading diseases extremely easily due to so many people all needing to move through and touch common areas, even if at any time they aren't necessarily in close proximity to that many other people.

But it is still interesting to see how ineffective the vaccine is as stopping the spread of the disease onboard.
The vaccines are ineffective everywhere
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2021, 5:40 AM
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Epaphroditus Epaphroditus is offline
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ADE has been a problem with mRNA vax for a long time and never addressed with the covid iteration.
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2021, 5:43 AM
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So, the link is saying the delta variant is actually a side effect of the mRNA concoctions that people are injecting?

I didn’t click the link; Asking for a friend.
So if the Delta variant is a side effect of the vaccines, why are most of those that are getting it the unvaccinated ones?
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Old 07-22-2021, 5:47 AM
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So if the Delta variant is a side effect of the vaccines, why are most of those that are getting it the unvaccinated ones?
It's communicable
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